1991 Intercity XC services between Birmingham and the North on the WCML

[Foden]

I have a copy of a BR Passenger timetable for Summer 1991, I'm attempting to put together a working timetable for a fictitious point on the WCML somewhere between Stafford and Norton Bridge for the same time period. Cobbling together the WCML traction is quite straight forward, but it's some of the XC services that I'm struggling with, not with timings, but with haulage, which the timetable obviously doesn't give information on

 

Services like the Poole - Liverpool/Manchester I THINK were all in the hands of 47s and Mk2s, and I'm also pretty confident the Plymouth - Aberdeen 'Devon Scot' was at this time in the hands of XC HST sets. What I'm unsure about is haulage and stock on the services between Paddington and Liverpool and Edinburgh, can anyone help?

Also did any of these XC services that used part of the WCML switch to electric traction at Birmingham during this time period?

[Mark Forrest]

On the whole, these services originating from Paddington would have changed locos at BNS with an electric working forward from there.

[brushman47544]

1 hour ago, Mark Forrest said:

On the whole, these services originating from Paddington would have changed locos at BNS with an electric working forward from there.

I agree. From memory, XC services going to Manchester would have kept the Class 47 north from Birmingham but for other destinations there would have been a change to electric traction (an 86).

[Foden]

Cheers guys, so using Stafford as a reference point (Please correct me where I'm wrong) these would be the common formations

Euston - Glasgow = Cl87/90 + Mk3 set + DVT

Euston - Manchester = Cl87/90 + Mk3 set + DVT

Euston - Liverpool = Cl87/90 + Mk3 set + DVT

Euston - Chester/Holyhead = Electric as far as Crewe, Diesel onward (unsure on coach stock) OR HST Depending on year
Euston - Blackpool = As above, except Preston rather than Crewe

Paddington/Bham  - Manchester = Cl47 + Short Mk2F set (No RFM, No DVT)

Paddington/Bham - Liverpool =  As above, except Cl86 from Bham

Plymouth - Aberdeen (Devon Scot) = XC HST Set (FO, RFM, FO x4, BG)

Poole - Manchester/Liverpool = Same as Paddington services, 47 stays on if going to Man, 86 added if to Liverpool

My confusion is differentiating between some of the Mk2F hauled sets I've seen in photos and videos on this stretch. Some are longer sets with a Mk3 RFM, and a DVT, most of them under the power of a Cl86. What services are these likely to be on?

[Mark Forrest]

33 minutes ago, Foden said:

My confusion is differentiating between some of the Mk2F hauled sets I've seen in photos and videos on this stretch. Some are longer sets with a Mk3 RFM, and a DVT, most of them under the power of a Cl86. What services are these likely to be on?

My memory is a little hazy, but off the top of my head, these could be Euston - Holyhead or Blackpool.  Seem to recall Duffs hauling DVTs on these, need to find my old spotting books...

[caradoc]

From my unfortunately limited records for 1991/92:

 

1991

01 Jun 0918 Brighton-Glasgow C; 47829 to Birmingham NS (BNS), 87004 forward

29 Nov 1608 Glasgow C-BNS; 90011

02 Dec 0918 Brighton-Glasgow C; 47814 to BNS, 86231 forward

 

1992

26 Feb 0815 Glasgow C-Poole; HST

28 Feb 1007 Birmingham International-Glasgow C; 86260

20 Jun 0710 Edinburgh-Bournemouth; HST

 

 

 

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

Generally the HSTs came onto those WCML long distance trains from the (later than usual) Summer 1991 timetable change which began in July, so the "Cornish Scot", "Devon Scot", "Wessex Scot" and some balancing Poole/Bournemouth to Manchester workings would have switched to HSTs at that time. I think, without looking it up, that the HSTs started on Euston-Holyhead from the Autumn '91 timetable change as crew training was needed before these could be improved.

[125_driver]

I was also researching similar stuff  but more 1992 to 1994. A surprising number of 47s where booked to work throughout on the Paddington / Dover / Plymouth to Liverpool workings. The 86s seemed to be mainly used on the stuff going to Scotland or originating in the Birmingham area as opposed to the stuff coming from further south bound for Liverpool. Although some of the workings to lime st where 86s , so I'd say from a modelling point of view you can definitely justify 47s on your part of the wcml. 

Edited April 27, 2020 by 125_driver

[Foden]

Thanks guys. Yes indeed it's a really interesting point on the line to model as there's such a diverse flow of Intercity trains between Stafford and Norton Bridge junction for the Stoke-On-Trent line. Classes 86/87/90, and HST both WC and XC sets, as well as XC 47s can all be seen with various variations of Mk3, and Mk2 coaching stock, and that's before any regional passenger traffic, freight, and engineers trains. 

Certainly makes for a very diverse and intense traffic flow over even a four track line. Originally my plan had been to model part of the Trent Valley line, possibly around Nuneaton, but my interest has been diverted northward for this very reason. 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Foden

[Mark Forrest]

I'd be tempted to go a year or two earlier, allows you to run a few 85s to further add to the variety.  Also a grotty rake of Mk1s with a shiny new 90 on test, think they ran between Crewe and Stafford.

[SM42]

Just dug out and old spotting book and whilst the detail is mainly locos with a few mk3 and parcels stock thrown in the majority of locos were electrics.

 

Class 47s feature a few times but being an overnight stint ( yes I was madder back then ) they tend to be generally freight biased, namely  47228, 47304, 47209, 47286, 47281.

47513 and 47847 (look like these were around 0500 - 0600 ish as at the end of the session)  also put in an appearance as is 37242 but what on I didn't record. The date was 16-17 Aug 1991

.

47840 made an appearance 22/10/90. Now I apparently bashed this loco that day, and without doubt I was probably travelling from Stoke - Stafford and back at that time (studied in Stoke, friends on Stafford campus. ) It seems likely that this was a Manchester - South Coast working or vice versa.

 

Around Stoke at this time class 56 and 20s on MGR workings (Trentham - Rugeley ?) were common and then there was of course the St Blazey - Cliffe Vale clay train with the ECC Tiger wagons.

 

Mill Meece, North of Stafford (Duke of York pub, alongside railway where me and dad stopped for a pint on the way to / from  home from uni) on 05/05/91 the usual raft of 87s and  86s, occasional 90, but also 47600 and 47305 were seen.

 

I know this doesn't wholly answer your exact question, but certainly shows that there was a  good variety in the area in 1991and the Manchester XC services do appear to be 47 hauled

 

Andy

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by SM42

[Steven B]

Just to add to the confusion: several of the services from the likes of Paddington & Plymouth were class 50 hauled. These were usually taken off at Birmingham or Stafford, but on occasion could be found running into Piccadilly:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dwbphotos/4025949870

 

If you've got the working time-table that gives you the train reporting numbers then searching on Flickr (e.g. 1S76 train) will usually find plenty of pictures of the workings; You can usually use the filters to restrict the search to the years you're interested in.

 

Steven B.

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Steven B

[Mark Forrest]

12 minutes ago, Steven B said:

Just to add to the confusion: several of the services from the likes of Paddington & Plymouth were class 50 hauled. These were usually taken off at Birmingham or Stafford, but on occasion could be found running into Piccadilly:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dwbphotos/4025949870

 

I don’t recall 50s working through to Stafford regularly (in that era), although do have a photo somewhere of 50007 arriving at Stafford on an up train, so the one in the photo wasn’t unique.

 

For me back then, getting a Midline Day Ranger ticket at Penkridge allowed you to get down Leamington Spa to catch one of the 50 hauled train back as far as BNS to get a bit of Hoover haulage - happy days.

[Foden]

4 hours ago, Mark Forrest said:

I'd be tempted to go a year or two earlier, allows you to run a few 85s to further add to the variety.  Also a grotty rake of Mk1s with a shiny new 90 on test, think they ran between Crewe and Stafford.

 

Quite, but alas with the way of these things, what you gain in one hand you lose in the other, by shuffling forward a little I'd lose my beloved 60s in regular service.

However, I'm not glued rigid to a particular date, there's nothing to stop me merrily picking a running date roughly in the era as the mood takes me, I do love a good roarer.

 

24 minutes ago, Steven B said:

Just to add to the confusion: several of the services from the likes of Paddington & Plymouth were class 50 hauled. These were usually taken off at Birmingham or Stafford, but on occasion could be found running into Piccadilly:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dwbphotos/4025949870

 

If you've got the working time-table that gives you the train reporting numbers then searching on Flickr (e.g. 1S76 train) will usually find plenty of pictures of the workings; You can usually use the filters to restrict the search to the years you're interested in.

 

Steven B.

 

 

Now this is very fascinating, I'd never even considered this. Gives me an excuse to grab a toothpaste hoover for that 'one off' scenario every so often!

[Steven B]

1K01 Piccadilly to Stafford. This "local" train used the stock from a Paddington<->Stafford train. After arriving from Manchester the stock would shunt and lay-over in Stafford for an hour before heading back to Paddington

50027: https://www.flickr.com/photos/petejrogers/15289113179/

50041: https://www.flickr.com/photos/petejrogers/15716252726/in/photostream/

 

50044: https://www.flickr.com/photos/15977833@N07/31582871186/

 

 

Other's documented on the service include: 50007, 36 &46. I believe the Stafford-Piccadilly section was normally class 31 hauled. In some cases the swap happened the other way, with the class 31 heading south. I can't imagine any such trains arrived on time!

 

There were also cases where Poole-Manchester trains continued beyond Oxford with class 50 haulage rather than being swapped for a 47:

50002: https://flic.kr/p/fQBYfZ

 

 

 

 

 

Steven B.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Mark Forrest said:

I don’t recall 50s working through to Stafford regularly (in that era), although do have a photo somewhere of 50007 arriving at Stafford on an up train, so the one in the photo wasn’t unique.

 

For me back then, getting a Midline Day Ranger ticket at Penkridge allowed you to get down Leamington Spa to catch one of the 50 hauled train back as far as BNS to get a bit of Hoover haulage - happy days.

Ive a photo of 50008 in the up bay at Stafford having failed. It was there for at least a week, only time I ever saw that bay used.

 

The final swing of the class 304s was at Stafford, dumped in the CE sidings before scrapping. The Mk1 bullion van used to be stored in the sidings south of the station too for many years.

 

if you widen your scope a little, say Staafordshire: 1986-1996 you could feasibly fit (+ occasionals with  excursions and test trains)..

 

08,20,D7672, 97201,31+(97203/4), 37, D200, 45106, 45112, D172, 47, 50 (Inc Blue,NSE, 50007/8/15/19/D400), 55, 56, 58, 59104, 60, 81, adb968021, 85, 86, 87, 89, 90, 91, 92, Eurostar, HST.

 

missing from this is a class 33.. I don't ever recall seeing one, but it surely must have happened. Of course 1986 just nudges class 25 in there too.

 

Liveries including :Green, Blue ,L/L Blue,  Intercity, Swallow, Mainline, Regional Railways, Midline, Provincial, Scotrail, Railfreight, Redstrip, Dutch, Engineers Grey, RTC, Technical Services, BRT, Yellow, Railfreight sectors, Parcels, Res, Police, Porterbrook, NSE, Virgin, Mainline, Transrail, EWS, Royal Mail , ARC and more.

 

Didnt really note stafford for DMUs, but Pacers,150’s had been seen there, as had Royal Mail and Newspaper DPUs.. and of course class 304’s, 310....

 

If you stick with 1991, your options shrink...

 

08,20,31+(97204), 37, 47, 50007/D400, 56, 58, 59104,60, 86, 87, 90, HST.

Liveries including :Green, Blue ,L/L Blue, LNWR Black, Intercity, Swallow, Mainline, Regional Railways, Provincial, Scotrail, Railfreight, Redstrip, Dutch, Engineers Grey, RTC, Railfreight sectors, Parcels, Res,  NSE, though you get to keep ARC, with 59104’s Scottish journey in July 1991.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by adb968008

[Mark Forrest]

Fascinating, and I stand corrected about 50s at Stafford - now kicking myself for not knowing this back then!

[phil-b259]

By 1991 the 'reorganisation for quality' initiative that saw the final abolition regions in favour of business sectors taking total responsibility for everything (including infrastructure) was underway. InterCity was extremely keen to get rid of add hoc arrangements* which had been seen in preceding years significantly reducing the variety which would be seen.

 

*This meant standardised coach sets and only InterCity sector motive power in efforts to cut costs and streamline operations.

 

Also by the early 1990s, The 'Thames Turbo' units were displacing the class 50s from the Paddington route with NSE using the 50s mainly on West of England services - though by that stage the 50s were chronically unreliable.

 

[phil-b259]

57 minutes ago, Foden said:

 

Quite, but alas with the way of these things, what you gain in one hand you lose in the other, by shuffling forward a little I'd lose my beloved 60s in regular service.

However, I'm not glued rigid to a particular date, there's nothing to stop me merrily picking a running date roughly in the era as the mood takes me, I do love a good roarer.

 

 

Now this is very fascinating, I'd never even considered this. Gives me an excuse to grab a toothpaste hoover for that 'one off' scenario every so often!

 

The railway in 1991 was a very different one from 1987 as full sectorisation began to byte - by the early 90s the idea that the InterCity business sector would borrow a class 50 + rake of Mk1s is rather far fetched.

[adb968008]

19 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The railway in 1991 was a very different one from 1987 as full sectorisation began to byte - by the early 90s the idea that the InterCity business sector would borrow a class 50 + rake of Mk1s is rather far fetched.

 

there were exceptions...

 

Intercity was always borrowing Parcels 47/86’s...

Regional Railways was always nicking Engineers 31’s...*

and of course class 20’s were still going to Skegness with Intercity mk1’s.

Railfreight 90’s were not uncommon on passenger traffic, especially Manchester -Birmingham with mk2’s.

Correspondingly Parcels was nicking Mainline liveried class 47’s.

 

Crewe and Bescot being the usual culprits for sharing stuff out.

 

After the 158’s came into Scotland, Scottish 47/4’s spread out nationwide, in turn setting some NSE 47/4’s loose to wider territories..., Intercity nicked those up north too.

 

But agreed, by 1991 class 50’s in particular, were somewhat restrained in their voyages.

 

* It wasnt all solid to sectors in 1991, the 31/5 fleet was created specifically to stop passenger companies robbing them in 1991... 47/9 (97/5)s happened earlier but still didnt stop it, indeed unions forced 97/5 to be renumbered back to 47/9 as drivers were claiming not to be trained in their use on passenger trains.

 

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

Just now, adb968008 said:

 

there were exceptions...

 

Intercity was always borrowing Parcels 47’s...

Regional Railways was always nicking Engineers 31’s...

and of course class 20’s were still going to Skegness with Intercity mk1’s.

Railfreight 90’s were not uncommon on passenger traffic, especially Manchester -Birmingham with mk2’s.

 

Crewe and Bescot being the usual culprits for sharing stuff out.

 

After the 158’s came into Scotland, Scottish 47/4’s spread out nationwide, in turn setting some NSE 47/4’s loose to wider territories...

 

But agreed, by 1991 class 50’s in particular, were somewhat restrained in their voyages.

 

 

 

 

 

Re InterCity hiring (yes as the Stationmaster of this parish will confirm money did change hands even in late BR days when one business sector needed to use the assets of another) parcels sector 47s is logical because said 47s were maintained for high speed running and came with ETS, plus a large number of InterCity drivers would be familiar with them due to InterCity having its own allocation of 47s. The same is true with class 90s, though speed restricted freight machines would be shunned in favour of parcels sector locos if possible.

 

As regards Engineers locos - please remember that with the abolition of regions by 1992, ALL locos used for engineering work were allocated to the business sector which was responsible for maintaining their tracks (i.e. WCML fast lines = InterCity business sector, WCML slow lines = NSE / Regional Railways).

 

Thus although things were still in a transition state in 1991, there was far less variety than the pre-1990 railway where sectorisation was more of a marketing thing than a genuine attempt to re-organise how the railway operated.

 

Regional Railways

[phil-b259]

Just now, adb968008 said:

 

there were exceptions...

 

Intercity was always borrowing Parcels 47’s...

Regional Railways was always nicking Engineers 31’s...

and of course class 20’s were still going to Skegness with Intercity mk1’s.

Railfreight 90’s were not uncommon on passenger traffic, especially Manchester -Birmingham with mk2’s.

 

Crewe and Bescot being the usual culprits for sharing stuff out.

 

After the 158’s came into Scotland, Scottish 47/4’s spread out nationwide, in turn setting some NSE 47/4’s loose to wider territories...

 

But agreed, by 1991 class 50’s in particular, were somewhat restrained in their voyages.

 

 

 

 

 

Re InterCity hiring (yes as the Stationmaster of this parish will confirm money did change hands even in late BR days when one business sector needed to use the assets of another) parcels sector 47s is logical because said 47s were maintained for high speed running and came with ETS, plus a large number of InterCity drivers would be familiar with them due to InterCity having its own allocation of 47s. The same is true with class 90s, though speed restricted freight machines would be shunned in favour of parcels sector locos if possible.

 

As regards Engineers locos - please remember that with the abolition of regions by 1992, ALL locos used for engineering work were allocated to the business sector which was responsible for maintaining their tracks (i.e. WCML fast lines = InterCity business sector, WCML slow lines = NSE / Regional Railways).

 

Thus although things were still in a transition state in 1991, there was far less variety than the pre-1990 railway where sectorisation was more of a marketing thing than a genuine attempt to re-organise how the railway operated.

 

 

[adb968008]

36 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Re InterCity hiring (yes as the Stationmaster of this parish will confirm money did change hands even in late BR days when one business sector needed to use the assets of another) parcels sector 47s is logical because said 47s were maintained for high speed running and came with ETS, plus a large number of InterCity drivers would be familiar with them due to InterCity having its own allocation of 47s. The same is true with class 90s, though speed restricted freight machines would be shunned in favour of parcels sector locos if possible.

 

As regards Engineers locos - please remember that with the abolition of regions by 1992, ALL locos used for engineering work were allocated to the business sector which was responsible for maintaining their tracks (i.e. WCML fast lines = InterCity business sector, WCML slow lines = NSE / Regional Railways).

 

Thus although things were still in a transition state in 1991, there was far less variety than the pre-1990 railway where sectorisation was more of a marketing thing than a genuine attempt to re-organise how the railway operated.

 

 

I’m somewhat au-fait with it too, in 1992 I was working with RES at Ryedale House in Euston, above Platform 1, translating rail delays, their reasoning, and fault & resolution as RES was one of the earlier business sectors to have to pay for delays, in this case to Royal Mail for delayed trains.  Overall the biggest causation was vandalism related.
One brick through a loco window, could delay a dozen mail / parcels trains nationwide in a night, and not only require a rescue loco, but multiple relief locos, sometimes for a week, as consequence of being out of place/time and extra movements to recover... locos which the sectors didnt have enough of... the sharing of once pooled BR fleets using mixed usage diagrams meant dedicated sectors no longer had enough locos to reliably operate their fleets with contingency.

 

I recall in my report one such example, where a delay to a parcels train near Bristol lead to an extra train the next day in Scotland.

Edited April 28, 2020 by adb968008

[Foden]

Excellent info in here, many thanks.

The great thing about model railways ofcourse is we're not tied to a specific point in time, maybe a window of time, but not one particular point.

 

Without changing much atall fixed to the baseboard, I could play trains in the late 80s one day, early 90s the next, and then mid-late 90s the day after, with all the colourful variations and train formations that offers.

[SM42]

Going off into 1992, 29th June to be precise, I recorded 43100 and 43068 at Stafford. I can't find any record of HSTs before then, but then again I rarely spent more than a hour there changing trains.

Test car Iris also made an appearance that day

 

When did the 37 hauled B'ham Holyheads start running?

 

Andy