1991 Intercity XC services between Birmingham and the North on the WCML

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

If you are modelling Stafford you can almost get away with any HST power car from July '91; nominally the ICCS sector (which would have passed through there on the Cornish Scot, Wessex Scot and other workings to/from Manchester included the likes of 43068/100 (all the buffer fitted ones were ICCS, along with c20 others) but until Spring '92 they let anything go anywhere so those trains would have been formed of any NL or EC based power cars. Conversely the Devon Scot, and from September '91 the Euston-Holyhead services, would have been formed of any LA or PM based power car, although nominal business sectors were observed from 1992 onwards.

 

Planned set formations for the XC workings were TGS-4x TS- TRSB-TF and for the Holyhead workings TGS-4x TS-TRFB-2x TF.

[brushman47544]

On 27/04/2020 at 18:51, Foden said:

Cheers guys, so using Stafford as a reference point (Please correct me where I'm wrong) these would be the common formations

Euston - Glasgow = Cl87/90 + Mk3 set + DVT

Euston - Manchester = Cl87/90 + Mk3 set + DVT

Euston - Liverpool = Cl87/90 + Mk3 set + DVT

Euston - Chester/Holyhead = Electric as far as Crewe, Diesel onward (unsure on coach stock) OR HST Depending on year
Euston - Blackpool = As above, except Preston rather than Crewe

Paddington/Bham  - Manchester = Cl47 + Short Mk2F set (No RFM, No DVT)

Paddington/Bham - Liverpool =  As above, except Cl86 from Bham

Plymouth - Aberdeen (Devon Scot) = XC HST Set (FO, RFM, FO x4, BG)

Poole - Manchester/Liverpool = Same as Paddington services, 47 stays on if going to Man, 86 added if to Liverpool

My confusion is differentiating between some of the Mk2F hauled sets I've seen in photos and videos on this stretch. Some are longer sets with a Mk3 RFM, and a DVT, most of them under the power of a Cl86. What services are these likely to be on?

As regards Euston services, the Glasgows were normally Class 87s, whereas Class 90s were preferred on the Manchester services.

 

The Mk2f sets may have been Euston - Preston services, or perhaps Liverpool. Manchester and Glasgow were solid Mk3.

Edited April 28, 2020 by brushman47544

[Foden]

13 minutes ago, brushman47544 said:

As regards Euston services, the Glasgows were normally Class 87s, whereas Class 90s were preferred on the Manchester services.

 

The Mk2f sets may have been Euston - Preston services, or perhaps Liverpool. Manchester and Glasgow were solid Mk3.

 

Interesting, what might be the reason for this? Is it that London - Manchester was the flagship service, and the most lucrative market, thus being given the 'best in fleet' as it were?

[brushman47544]

8 minutes ago, Foden said:

 

Interesting, what might be the reason for this? Is it that London - Manchester was the flagship service, and the most lucrative market, thus being given the 'best in fleet' as it were?

Don’t know sorry. There was an issue with 86s and 87s pushing. When starting they could jolt a bit buffering up as they used the standard screw coupling not the buffer plates the 90s had, which may have impacted on the services/stock they were diagrammed to. indeed I seem to recall the DVTs (i.e. push/pull) started on the Manchester services so the 90s went there first, and stayed.

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Foden said:

 

Interesting, what might be the reason for this? Is it that London - Manchester was the flagship service, and the most lucrative market, thus being given the 'best in fleet' as it were?

dont forget the Manchester and Liverpool Pullman services, Intercity Mk3’s, where the FO’s were named, and used the Mk3 Brake coaches 17173-5.

 

Manchester -Birminghams were mk2’s, usually an 86/2... second rate service, lower fares, stopped every 2nd lampost (Only the 304’s stopped at every lampost).

There was a number of long haul turns that were via Manchester that  used 47’s too... Not sure their source or destination, but i’d take them as preference, I recall exotic locos like 47541, 47461, 47637 turning up on these, always a Saturday morning (i would be returning home from uni, so c1993)...

heres one example, where I jumped off at Stockport..

Edited April 28, 2020 by adb968008

[Foden]

7 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

dont forget the Manchester and Liverpool Pullman services, Intercity Mk3’s, where the FO’s were named, and used the Mk3 Brake coaches 17173-5.

 

Manchester -Birminghams were mk2’s, usually an 86/2... second rate service, lower fares, stopped every 2nd lampost (Only the 304’s stopped at every lampost).

There was a number of long haul turns that were via Manchester that  used 47’s too... Not sure their source or destination, but i’d take them as preference, I recall exotic locos like 47541, 47461, 47637 turning up on these, always a Saturday morning (i would be returning home from uni, so c1993.

 

Indeed, it's struck me just how many Pullmans and named services were scheduled to run on the WCML in '91 when the timetable I'm working from was published.

Several Manchester Pullmans per day, also Merseyside Pullman, Lancashire Pullman, then various named services, Royal Scot, Devon Scot, Cornish Scot, Sussex Scot, Wessex Scot, Midland Scot, Clansman, Welsh Dragon!!

Timetables now by comparison are a rather dull affair

[adb968008]

19 minutes ago, Foden said:

 

Indeed, it's struck me just how many Pullmans and named services were scheduled to run on the WCML in '91 when the timetable I'm working from was published.

Several Manchester Pullmans per day, also Merseyside Pullman, Lancashire Pullman, then various named services, Royal Scot, Devon Scot, Cornish Scot, Sussex Scot, Wessex Scot, Midland Scot, Clansman, Welsh Dragon!!

Timetables now by comparison are a rather dull affair

Thats done it, you peaked my interest to the point of action, I didnt record the trains, but I recall a bundle of papers in my office, I have a whole bunch of these, however a quick sift through Ive found these which are specifically Stafford trains or probably passed theough, which as a student I have ridden on....

 

Note the Manchester Pullman was hardly an “express”..

 

 

 

ive added Royal Scot .. just because really.

Edited April 28, 2020 by adb968008

[Foden]

3 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Thats done it, you peaked my interest to the point of action, I didnt record the trains, but I recall a bundle of papers in my office, I have a whole bunch of these, however a quick sift through Ive found these which are specifically Stafford trains which as a student I have ridden on....

 

Note the Manchester Pullman was hardly an “express”..

 

 

Lovely nostalgia!

Funny you should note the lack of urgency to some of the Pullmans, it had come to my attention that some of these were a little less direct than I'd assumed they would be.

During this time period I was only a fascinated young boy, watching at Nuneaton in awe as these trains roared by, but with no real knowledge of what was going where, it's so nice decades later to piece it together. Thanks for sharing!

[adb968008]

Heres a few others, Ive actually precious few pictures at Stafford, I tended to focus on getting out of town before taking pictures...

 

47821 Royal Worcester, an Old Oak Royal Train reserve 47,  at Wilmslow, probably on a Paddington, via Reading to Manchester...always in good condition...

Stafford: An 87 on mk2’s... probably why I bothered to take this picture, as 87’s usually were on mk3’s... this was probably one of the “scots” from the south.

 

sometimes things went bump...  I recall my journey was planned to not be New Street, but when this showed up pulling a failed 85 at Stafford, my plans instantly changed and I headed to Brum for a ride

 

 

a more common substitute for an 86 on Birmingham - northbound services... an rfd 90...

 

an 85 on NSE stock... rubbish picture, but evidence it did happen.

 

 

another intercity 47 heading south at Stockport..

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by adb968008

[Steven B]

On 28/04/2020 at 15:40, adb968008 said:

if you widen your scope a little, say Staafordshire: 1986-1996 you could feasibly fit (+ occasionals with  excursions and test trains)..

 

08,20,D7672, 97201,31+(97203/4), 37, D200, 45106, 45112, D172, 47, 50 (Inc Blue,NSE, 50007/8/15/19/D400), 55, 56, 58, 59104, 60, 81, adb968021, 85, 86, 87, 89, 90, 91, 92, Eurostar, HST.

 

missing from this is a class 33.. I don't ever recall seeing one, but it surely must have happened. Of course 1986 just nudges class 25 in there too.

 

Class 33s are easy if you bend geography a little. In the mid-late 1980s there was a regular class 33 hauled Cardiff-Crewe service, some of which were extended to Manchester or Holyhead. Train was usually Mk1 SK CK BSK SK SK, often with a BG attached at one end. 1V03, 1V05, 1V07, 1M67 and 1M84 are some of the train numbers to look out for.

See also:

 

 

July 1989 also saw a class 33 plus two 4-TC run from Wareham to Bangor. No idea if they were routed via the WCML.

 

Steven B

[Compound2632]

I was a fairly frequent traveller between Oxford and Birmingham New St, and occasionally north thereof to Oxenholme, Manchester, or Leeds, and between Oxford and Paddington, up to 1992. I'm sure that I only encountered 50s on Paddington-Oxford trains and not at all north of Oxford; locomotive-hauled cross-country trains were exclusively 47s. My recollection is that locomotive-hauled cross-country trains coming from Bournemouth etc. for the WCML invariably had an 86 north of Birmingham, which may sometimes have come on at Coventry.

[47449xeCD]

On 29/04/2020 at 06:04, adb968008 said:

dont forget the Manchester and Liverpool Pullman services, Intercity Mk3’s, where the FO’s were named, and used the Mk3 Brake coaches 17173-5.

 

Manchester -Birminghams were mk2’s, usually an 86/2... second rate service, lower fares, stopped every 2nd lampost (Only the 304’s stopped at every lampost).

There was a number of long haul turns that were via Manchester that  used 47’s too... Not sure their source or destination, but i’d take them as preference, I recall exotic locos like 47541, 47461, 47637 turning up on these, always a Saturday morning (i would be returning home from uni, so c1993)...

heres one example, where I jumped off at Stockport..

Maybe got your days and years mixed up? The 1025 SuO Birmingham-Aberdeen was booked a Scottish 47 in the summer 1990 timetable. Your photo of 47541 could very easily be on that. This train also got a 47/7 on 2 occasions. The loco worked down from Scotland on Saturday night’s Glasgow-Plymouth overnight. 
 

47541 lost its plates in February 1991. 47461 was withdrawn after an accident in November 1990. 

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, 47449xeCD said:

47541 lost its plates in February 1991. 47461 was withdrawn after an accident in November 1990. 

ah you could be right here, by coincidence I just found the negative sheet for this, the other pictures show a pair of blue 20’s at Stoke, and a parcels 47 outside Piccadilly, followed by some DMUs (Hybrid Strathclyde/Bluegrey 101) and  a Welsh Dragon class 108 at Bolton... which was “home”.

 

The next images are East Lancs with 76079, 40145... but the giveaway is USA Tank 30072 at Bury shed.... it wasnt at Bury very long... just one winter I recall, to help with Santa Specials and a winter gala the shed is also Castlecroft, so before BQ depot closed (in 1991)... A quick look online suggests it was at KWVR winter 90/91, so maybe December 89 - Feb 90 ?

 

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by adb968008

[47449xeCD]

22 hours ago, adb968008 said:

ah you could be right here, by coincidence I just found the negative sheet for this, the other pictures show a pair of blue 20’s at Stoke, and a parcels 47 outside Piccadilly, followed by some DMUs (Hybrid Strathclyde/Bluegrey 101) and  a Welsh Dragon class 108 at Bolton... which was “home”.

 

The next images are East Lancs with 76079, 40145... but the giveaway is USA Tank 30072 at Bury shed.... it wasnt at Bury very long... just one winter I recall, to help with Santa Specials and a winter gala the shed is also Castlecroft, so before BQ depot closed (in 1991)... A quick look online suggests it was at KWVR winter 90/91, so maybe December 89 - Feb 90 ?

 

 

541 worked the train for possibly the only time on Sunday 5th August. However in November of that year it was reallocated from Inverness to Crewe where it spent around 2-3 months before withdrawal. During that time it was a frequent performer on the last of the loco hauled trans pennine services, but it’s possible it could have turned up on an intercity train. 

[Clearwater]

On 30/04/2020 at 21:43, Compound2632 said:

I was a fairly frequent traveller between Oxford and Birmingham New St, and occasionally north thereof to Oxenholme, Manchester, or Leeds, and between Oxford and Paddington, up to 1992. I'm sure that I only encountered 50s on Paddington-Oxford trains and not at all north of Oxford; locomotive-hauled cross-country trains were exclusively 47s. My recollection is that locomotive-hauled cross-country trains coming from Bournemouth etc. for the WCML invariably had an 86 north of Birmingham, which may sometimes have come on at Coventry.

 

I travelled in a compartment behind a Class 50 in June 1995 from Oxford to Birmingham albeit I wasnt trainspotting then, and was a touch delicate as I’dfinished finals the day before, I still tended to note what was hauling a train.  From recollection of 80s trainspotting, there was a lot of loco swapping at New Street. Some of the services north to Manchester were often with Class 81s or 85s.

[Foden]

One assumes the benefit in the running overheads (no pun intended) must have been enough to warrant the change in traction from diesel to electric where feasible, otherwise I'd have thought BR wouldn't have bothered with the faff and added manpower of changing a locomotive part way through a service. 

[The Pilotman]

1 hour ago, Clearwater said:

 

I travelled in a compartment behind a Class 50 in June 1995 from Oxford to Birmingham 

They’d all been withdrawn by then. Was it a railtour, or a few years earlier? 

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

37 minutes ago, Foden said:

One assumes the benefit in the running overheads (no pun intended) must have been enough to warrant the change in traction from diesel to electric where feasible, otherwise I'd have thought BR wouldn't have bothered with the faff and added manpower of changing a locomotive part way through a service. 

They would change even on surprisingly short runs, I recall them swapping locos at Ipswich before the wires had reached Norwich in the mid 1980's.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Clearwater said:

was a touch delicate as I’d finished finals the day before, 

 

3 minutes ago, Western Aviator said:

They’d all been withdrawn by then. Was it a railtour, or a few years earlier? 

 

Those are not the sort of circumstance one easily forgets...

 

NSE Class 50s were working Paddington-Oxford trains at least up to mid-1992 but had been replaced by Thames Turbos by the time I moved back to the area in early 1995. I think the last train of the evening to Birmingham from Oxford started from Paddington and terminated at New Street, it being too late to go on anywhere else - presumably there was a balancing early morning train. That could have been a NSE set with a Class 50, I suppose, but I'm recollecting the timetable only - my journeys tended to be earlier in the afternoon, to be home in Sutton Coldfield for dinner.

[Clearwater]

45 minutes ago, Western Aviator said:

They’d all been withdrawn by then. Was it a railtour, or a few years earlier? 

 

34 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

Those are not the sort of circumstance one easily forgets...

 

NSE Class 50s were working Paddington-Oxford trains at least up to mid-1992 but had been replaced by Thames Turbos by the time I moved back to the area in early 1995. I think the last train of the evening to Birmingham from Oxford started from Paddington and terminated at New Street, it being too late to go on anywhere else - presumably there was a balancing early morning train. That could have been a NSE set with a Class 50, I suppose, but I'm recollecting the timetable only - my journeys tended to be earlier in the afternoon, to be home in Sutton Coldfield for dinner.

 
possible I’m conflating two similar journeys in a similarly delicate state as I also got the train back to Birmingham, though I lived in Stourbridge not Sutton, in June 1993 roughly at the end of term.  My post finals trip was to the dentist so I got a morning train.  I’d managed to break a filling eating my dinner literally half way through my exams.

[Tim Hall]

On 28/04/2020 at 15:40, adb968008 said:

Ive a photo of 50008 in the up bay at Stafford having failed. It was there for at least a week, only time I ever saw that bay used.

 

The final swing of the class 304s was at Stafford, dumped in the CE sidings before scrapping. The Mk1 bullion van used to be stored in the sidings south of the station too for many years.

 

if you widen your scope a little, say Staafordshire: 1986-1996 you could feasibly fit (+ occasionals with  excursions and test trains)..

 

08,20,D7672, 97201,31+(97203/4), 37, D200, 45106, 45112, D172, 47, 50 (Inc Blue,NSE, 50007/8/15/19/D400), 55, 56, 58, 59104, 60, 81, adb968021, 85, 86, 87, 89, 90, 91, 92, Eurostar, HST.

 

missing from this is a class 33.. I don't ever recall seeing one, but it surely must have happened. Of course 1986 just nudges class 25 in there too.

 

Liveries including :Green, Blue ,L/L Blue,  Intercity, Swallow, Mainline, Regional Railways, Midline, Provincial, Scotrail, Railfreight, Redstrip, Dutch, Engineers Grey, RTC, Technical Services, BRT, Yellow, Railfreight sectors, Parcels, Res, Police, Porterbrook, NSE, Virgin, Mainline, Transrail, EWS, Royal Mail , ARC and more.

 

Didnt really note stafford for DMUs, but Pacers,150’s had been seen there, as had Royal Mail and Newspaper DPUs.. and of course class 304’s, 310....

 

If you stick with 1991, your options shrink...

 

08,20,31+(97204), 37, 47, 50007/D400, 56, 58, 59104,60, 86, 87, 90, HST.

Liveries including :Green, Blue ,L/L Blue, LNWR Black, Intercity, Swallow, Mainline, Regional Railways, Provincial, Scotrail, Railfreight, Redstrip, Dutch, Engineers Grey, RTC, Railfreight sectors, Parcels, Res,  NSE, though you get to keep ARC, with 59104’s Scottish journey in July 1991.

 

 

 

 

50008 in a bay at Stafford 15th Sept 1995. Terrible photo, from a train paused briefly. 

[Compound2632]

Well there you go, @Clearwater. The camera does not lie. You could evidently have travelled north from Oxford behind a Class 50 in early-mid June 1995. I'm intrigued by the compartment though - I'm sure the NSE Paddington-Ocford set(s) where all Mk 2 TSOs apart from the central brake vehicle, which might have been a Mk1. Or was there a Mk 2 side-corridor first or composite in the formation? The only time I travelled in a compartment on that route was in a Mk 1 BCK c. 1984. That sticks in the mind because it was a remarkable enough vehicle at the time so I made a bee-line for it!

Edited May 2, 2020 by Compound2632

[Clearwater]

@Compound2632 I’ve never been that good on coach identification but similarly I remember because it was unusual.  Was either 1992 or 1995.  I did go up to Birmingham in June 1996 to the Edgbaston Test, excellent century by Tendulkar, but I think I slept on the train in both directions as I’d been up all night.

[rob D2]

Seems 50008 was already preserved in 95: and failed either going to or from the Banford hall open day 

[Compound2632]

Must have been really bad toothache.