Class 503 proposals for the Isle of Wight

[roythebus]

Looking through my computer files, I found this BR Report from 1983.

IWR Class 503 Proposal 1983-04-25 -.pdf

[russ p]

What a shame that didn't happen,  if that track alteration in the tunnel had taken place would that have made the line suitable for most mainline stock or were 503s not as tall as other stock

[Robert Shrives]

The report got more than an honourable mention in the latest IOW book by  Richard Long - Ryde Rail.  IIRC correctly what attracted was availabilty and size - alterations not as bad as sets were lower than standard.  Yes amissed opportunity or missed a bullet depending on where you sit ,  but only marginally different for latest stock to be slated for the lines - but sill LT originated !  where as 503 might have led to 508s... we will never know.

 

 

Robert    

Edited April 28, 2020 by Robert Shrives
sp

[Bomag]

2 hours ago, russ p said:

What a shame that didn't happen,  if that track alteration in the tunnel had taken place would that have made the line suitable for most mainline stock or were 503s not as tall as other stock

 AM3/503 were built for the Mersey tunnel lines and were narrower (only 2+2 seating), not as tall (by 5mm) and 8ft shorter than the AM2/502 used on the Lancashire lines. The 507/508s  are nearer the dimensions of the AM2 (but 2ft shorter).

[adb968008]

I’m not sure which were in worse condition, the class 503’s were rotten... I mean lean against the body side you’d leave a dent, and you could scratch a hole through the window frames with your fingers. Whilst riding you’d be bounced about, but with hard landings. Manky seating, rotten wooden interior, windows ready to fall out.

 

not my picture (flickr)

 

I think the 1938 stock today, after 3 decades on the IOW, rough as it is, is today still in much better condition than the 503’s were 4 decades ago when withdrawn.

 

I assume the outcome of this report, was after an official visited Liverpool from Ryde, laughed, returned home, complained and then filed for a refund of the report ?

Edited April 28, 2020 by adb968008

[andania 213]

53 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I’m not sure which were in worse condition, the class 503’s were rotten... I mean lean against the body side you’d leave a dent, and you could scratch a hole through the window frames with your fingers. Whilst riding you’d be bounced about, but with hard landings. Manky seating, rotten wooden interior, windows ready to fall out.

 

 

 

You travelled on them regularly then? !!

K

 

[adb968008]

44 minutes ago, andania 213 said:

 

 

You travelled on them regularly then? !!

K

 

Only during their withdrawal period, to say i’d been there and done it.

 

I think they were chalk and cheese though, some were refurb, others less so. After Horwich stopped overhauling them.., who overhauled them ?

Edited April 28, 2020 by adb968008

[Michael Edge]

I agree about them being rotten but I rode on them (and the Southport sets) regularly in the 1950s and 1960s and the ride was excellent, bearing in mind that the Mersey Railway track wasn't always all that good in the underground bits. I remember the contrast when the AM4 sets arrived on Liverpool- Crewe - they were truly awful in comparison.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I used to look forward to a trip on a 503 when visiting my grandmother in West Kirby (late 60s, early 70s). Seemed a lot better to me than the 4SUBs and EPBs that we had in South London. But they did originate before WW2 (some built later to replace the original Mersey Railway stock) so they were already quite an age at the time this proposal was being made.

 

So much effort goes into finding an adapting old standard gauge stock for the IoW. Surely it would actually be easier and cheaper to find something new based on a narrow-gauge design.

[Robert Shrives]

Yes ,

But its all down to dosh!  The 23x variation od D78 stock from Adrian Shooter is the new way forward. Metre gauge trams might have been better but then the pier becomes a lost cause, but offered the chance of expanding over the hill to Ventnor and of course around the rest of the Island.  The report does suggest  that some were rot boxes but had picked out the good ones and the bad. Given Ryde works abilities some good life would have been possible, but salt air across the Island does for steel regardless.

Robert    

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think that the current scheme does look like a good choice. I was referring more to the past decisions. A narrow-gauge design might still be put on standard gauge running gear.

[Zomboid]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

So much effort goes into finding an adapting old standard gauge stock for the IoW. Surely it would actually be easier and cheaper to find something new based on a narrow-gauge design

Depends if anything suitable is on anyone's order books at the right time.

The Tyne & Wear metro is imminently replacing it's trains, you'd wonder if a few trains with the same body and most of the power system would do the job. On the assumption that they'll fit without huge modifications to the infrastructure of course.

 

Not that the 484s will be a bad idea, if they're simple enough technology then there's no reason why they couldn't last a reasonable length of time.

[andania 213]

Reading the report flagged up in the OP, it seems in many ways that they'd have been ideal. however, one point wasn't considered in the report, though it was listed.

The 503's had at the insistence of the Mersey Railway, whose tracks they shared, been fitted with 135hp motors, instead of the larger ones the LMS had wanted to fit.  So, although their lighter construction ( compared to 1938 stock) would have helped, they'd have been ponderous compared to what had gone before. 

The 503's were never as sprightly as the 502's, which had far larger motors 

 

Overhauls were indeed done at Horwich, the last set to be overhauled being sent there in Dec. 82. Other than fitting emergency end doors, they were never 'refurbed' in the way the  DMU's of the time were.

 

As for the condition of the 503's?, well, as someone used them regularly from 1965, right to their end, my memories are that sure, they were at best lively riders, but were indeed degenerating to awful just before their end,

However, I honestly can't remember them as being rotten, either outside or inside ( This being borne out to me by a fellow Wirralian) .  Traditional the interiors may have been, but they were at least fitted with what you'd call seats compared to what came after them.

 

Ultimately, I suspect it would be the cost of altering Ryde Tunnel that killed the idea stone dead before it got any further. Don't forget, the early 1980's were a time when BR was under severe financial pressure, especially on infrastructure costs.

 

K 

[Tim Hall]

As a student of Liverpool Poly, living in Birkenhead in 1985 when they were being run down and withdrawn, I travelled on them almost daily. Loved them, can't remember much about the riding qualities though. Took a few pics including of the last service train, which carried a headboard.

[russ p]

They were certainly more of a 'train' than both types of underground stock was 

Shame the T&W metrocar idea wasn't taken further as although they are same vintage as the D stock they were always a lot lighter and airy inside and you get a forward view 

[Michael Edge]

5 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

I used to look forward to a trip on a 503 when visiting my grandmother in West Kirby (late 60s, early 70s). Seemed a lot better to me than the 4SUBs and EPBs that we had in South London. But they did originate before WW2 (some built later to replace the original Mersey Railway stock) so they were already quite an age at the time this proposal was being made.

 

So much effort goes into finding an adapting old standard gauge stock for the IoW. Surely it would actually be easier and cheaper to find something new based on a narrow-gauge design.

Many of them were built in the mid 1950s to replace old Mersey Railway stock, they must have been new when I first rode on them from Liverpool to New Brighton.

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 minute ago, Michael Edge said:

Many of them were built in the mid 1950s to replace old Mersey Railway stock, they must have been new when I first rode on them from Liverpool to New Brighton.

 

Yes, as mentioned in my post. I think that would explain why some were "rotten" and some rather better. I could not recall the build date of the second batch but I think it may have been 1956. So they would only have been 27 years old at the time of the 1983 report, young by IoW standards.

[bude_branch]

18 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I assume the outcome of this report, was after an official visited Liverpool from Ryde, laughed, returned home, complained and then filed for a refund of the report ?

 

Not at all.

 

 Said official was actually quite impressed and together with the staff at Birkenhead identified the 12 Units most recently overhauled and in the best overall condition, from which 9 Units would ultimately have been selected for transfer to the Isle of Wight.

 

Two quotes from his subsequent report: "There was no rust visible on the bodysides or any sign of corrosion under the floor of the units examined" and "Reports from the CM&EE and Traffic Staff all say they are very reliable Units".

Edited April 29, 2020 by bude_branch

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, bude_branch said:

 

 

Two quotes from his subsequent report: "There was no rust visible on the bodysides or any sign of corrosion under the floor of the units examined" and "Reports from the CM&EE and Traffic Staff all say they are very reliable Units".

This smacks of 'excellent condition, one careful lady owner who only used it to go round the corner to church every Sunday', or am I being cynical.  

 

The ideal solution for Vectrail is new trains designed bespoke to suit the island's needs; aluminium construction to deal with that salt air,  light on the axles to avoid knocking Ryde Pier about too much, and better riding than the old tube stock.  The island could then specify a loading gauge and possibly a track gauge for it to be built to.  I'd imagine diesel would save the upkeep of the electrical equipment and the 3rd rail could be scrapped, unless somebody's planning a tunnel to the 21st century, I mean mainland...

 

Underground trains are well built, easy to maintain (even old ones) and bombproof reliable, but have never ridden well, and high density capability is not really needed on the island.

[mdvle]

7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The ideal solution for Vectrail is new trains designed bespoke to suit the island's needs;

 

They don't have time or money, though at this point the time is the bigger concern, for an ideal solution - the existing fleet appears ready to throw in the towel given they had to cut service in half a number of months ago for a period due to a lack of operating units.

 

Thus the decision to go with the Vivarail Class 484 units.

[Steamport Southport]

A lot of people forget how unpopular the Class 507s and 508s were when they first appeared. The LMS units were very well liked. Not just by the enthusiasts.

 

There was rumours at the time they were going elsewhere. But vandalism soon put paid to that. That photo is after they had been stored out side for some considerable time and was probably stripped internally of all electrical gear.

 

On 28/04/2020 at 20:20, adb968008 said:

I’m not sure which were in worse condition, the class 503’s were rotten... I mean lean against the body side you’d leave a dent, and you could scratch a hole through the window frames with your fingers. Whilst riding you’d be bounced about, but with hard landings. Manky seating, rotten wooden interior, windows ready to fall out.

 

not my picture (flickr)

 

I think the 1938 stock today, after 3 decades on the IOW, rough as it is, is today still in much better condition than the 503’s were 4 decades ago when withdrawn.

 

I assume the outcome of this report, was after an official visited Liverpool from Ryde, laughed, returned home, complained and then filed for a refund of the report ?

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

On 28/04/2020 at 20:20, adb968008 said:

the class 503’s were rotten... I mean lean against the body side you’d leave a dent, and you could scratch a hole through the window frames with your fingers. Whilst riding you’d be bounced about, but with hard landings. Manky seating, rotten wooden interior, windows ready to fall out.

 

To be fair, this photo is perhaps not showing the class in it's best possible light...

[TravisM]

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Underground trains are well built, easy to maintain (even old ones) and bombproof reliable, but have never ridden well, and high density capability is not really needed on the island.

As I cut my train driving teeth on 38 tube stock when I worked on LT, they could be a little “bouncy” when either empty or lightly loaded as the suspension was designed for the maximum loading at rush hour.

[Steamport Southport]

This was the normal look.   

 

Not really, another scrapper at Birkenhead.

 

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/36034969@N08/4889333014

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, jools1959 said:

As I cut my train driving teeth on 38 tube stock when I worked on LT, they could be a little “bouncy” when either empty or lightly loaded as the suspension was designed for the maximum loading at rush hour.

The only time I've ever been really worried about the ride on a train I was aboard was on 1938 tube stock between Piccadilly Circus and Charing X, the deep part where it goes up and down and round the corners a bit on the Bakerloo, and I've been off the road 3 times in my railway career...