Long distance trains: engine changes

[Joseph_Pestell]

I was just looking that up but could not find it.

[The Stationmaster]

40 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I think both Euston - Glasgow Central and Kings Cross - Edinburgh Waverley are both just a smidgin under 400 miles. So under Fowler on the LMS (demonstration only) then Stanier on a regular basis, and under Gresley on the LNER. But I don't think lubrication was really an issue - mechanical lubricators were standard fittings by the 20s.

Lubrication wasn't the big problem - that was generally fairly well settled by 1914 with the real lubrication problem by then being the use of ever higher superheat temperatures which needed better oils and, as the final solution, mechanical lubricators to deliver the oil.  The biggest problem - already noted above - was ashpan capacity that was only only really solved by the larger ashpans that naturally accompanied wider foreboxes although obviously having the right coal also made a difference.

 

There was also a potential human problem in respect of the amount of work a Fireman could endure - the LNER solved it with a corridor tender, thre LMS invariably stopped to change crew enroute apart from a few press runs which were made non-stop

[LMS2968]

Thanks, I did wonder on the GWR route. It was the only other railway in with a chance!

[Compound2632]

28 minutes ago, LMS2968 said:

Thanks, I did wonder on the GWR route. It was the only other railway in with a chance!

 

Plymouth was done non-stop in the early 20th century, via the Great Way Round too - about 245 miles? 

 

46 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

There was also a potential human problem in respect of the amount of work a Fireman could endure - the LNER solved it with a corridor tender, thre LMS invariably stopped to change crew enroute apart from a few press runs which were made non-stop

 

Back to Terry Essery again: the Washwood Heath - Carlisle freights were at the very limit of endurance; tougher than a Euston-Carlisle non-stop, as Essery reports one of the Camden top-link firemen telling him.

 

[AberdeenBill]

Sorry if it's already been mentioned above...   The down Devon Belle changed locos at Wilton although it was not a booked stop.  

 

Bill

 

[Buhar]

There are plenty of stories of lubrication taking place while travelling at speed. Some drivers seemed to think that was why the running plate was so called as they clambered out clutching their pourie. 

 

Alan 

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, Buhar said:

There are plenty of stories of lubrication taking place while travelling at speed. Some drivers seemed to think that was why the running plate was so called as they clambered out clutching their pourie. 

 

Well, yes, on some 19th century bogie four-coupled engine (even as late as 1913 - the Aisgill disaster) but not on a streamlined Princess Coronation!

[Pandora]

If the   firebox ashpan capacity was a limiting factor in 400+ mile runs for a locomotive,  would the smokebox capacity for ash  impose a limit?

[LMS2968]

Eventually yes, but the smokebox was bigger and tended to eject at least come of its contents.

[Compound2632]

I travelled a great deal by train in the late 80s / early 90s. Engine changes were commonplace on the trains I regularly took, usually a Class 86 replacing a Class 47, or vice-versa - harking back to the 19th century practice of using the locomotive type best suited for each stage of the journey.

[sulzer27jd]

East coast top link passenger services from Edinburgh to Aberdeen changed engines at Dundee Tay Bridge station. There were a combination of factors, one being the supposedly poor water supply at the station but the other important factor was the NB and LNER allocating a locomotive and crew together. The introduction of the maximum working hours would mean a crew going out and back with a turn around in Dundee. The practice of changing engines continued right up to the end of steam despite changing working practices, so perhaps the water supply issue was still significant.

 

John

[phil_sutters]

Here are some photographic examples - Dad's photos may contain more - I have just rounded up those he has noted as the loco 'taking on/over' the train for its next stage.

Edited April 30, 2020 by phil_sutters

[phil_sutters]

On 28/04/2020 at 12:04, Aire Head said:

The LMS swapped locomotives on not just the WCNL on the midland route Leeds was a frequent changeover point.

 

Logical really as a reversal was required at Leeds so one locomotive would take the train into Leeds where it would be swapped for a Holbeck resident which would then take the train into Carlisle or further afield.

 

The "foreign" engine would then presumably take a train back towards its home depot.

 

For a time both the UP and Down Thames Clyde Express would be at Leeds at adjacent platforms, apparently it could be quite confusing due to identical rakes being sat next to each other and it was not unknown for passengers to catch the one going in the wrong direction.

Would you know which was which? They should have had different head boards - Thames - Clyde & Clyde Thames! Did they have the coach-side boards?

Edited April 30, 2020 by phil_sutters

[The Stationmaster]

On 29/04/2020 at 13:38, LMS2968 said:

Thanks, I did wonder on the GWR route. It was the only other railway in with a chance!

The longest GWR routes would have been Paddington - Plymouth via Bristol (245 miles, and most through working was via Lavington which is about 20 miles shorter) and Paddington - Shrewsbury (not sure of mileage with out checking but through engine working was not so common as changes usually took place at Wolverhampton).  

 

According to those involved the toughest jobs on the Western were the double home (lodging) turns between Newton Abbot & Shrewsbury.  215 miles with an awful lot of tough gradients sprinkled through the route including Filton Bank northbound and the Severn Tunnel plus the seesaw of the North & West - it was the job which both the depots kept their best 'Castles' for, letting them do little else.  In fact my final 'Castle' cop was one of Newton's engines which only got elsewhere after 'Warships' went on to the N&W route trains.

[kevinlms]

13 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

Would you know which was which? They should have had different head boards - Thames - Clyde & Clyde Thames! Did they have the coach-side boards?

Maybe they should, the problem being they would need two sets of board and needing to take the opposite set with them (under the hands of the guard?). Probably more trouble than it's worth.

There was no such thing as 'Down Royal Scot' and 'Up Royal Scot' name boards, for example, so why should one service have a special rule.

[brushman47544]

On ‎29‎/‎04‎/‎2020 at 12:36, Compound2632 said:

 

I think both Euston - Glasgow Central and Kings Cross - Edinburgh Waverley are both just a smidgin under 400 miles.

 

IIRC, BR Table 26 showed Edinburgh as 393 miles from KX and Table 65 showed Glasgow Central as 402 miles from Euston. No longer have old timetables to check.

[Compound2632]

43 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

Would you know which was which? They should have had different head boards - Thames - Clyde & Clyde Thames! Did they have the coach-side boards?

 

Even without the caption, surely everyone knows the rebuilt Scot is on for the Long Drag whereas the Jubilee is for the easier road to Leicester? More challenging once the Sulzer Type 4s took over. 

 

BTW, by this date did the Leeds engines (they're both 20A, I think) work through to Glasgow and London, or were there still changes at Carlisle and Leicester?

[LMS2968]

It was 401 1/4 miles between Euston and Glasgow, or possibly the other way around. There was a slight difference between the Up and Down directions, but I can't remember what it was.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, brushman47544 said:

 

IIRC, BR Table 26 showed Edinburgh as 393 miles from KX and Table 65 showed Glasgow Central as 402 miles from Euston. No longer have old timetables to check.

 

I had 399 miles in my head for Euston - Glasgow but I may have been thinking of Edinburgh Haymarket.

[LMS2968]

Possibly you were thinking of the 299 miles Euston to Carlisle.

[Gwiwer]

20 hours ago, AberdeenBill said:

Sorry if it's already been mentioned above...   The down Devon Belle changed locos at Wilton although it was not a booked stop.  

 

Bill

 

 

Done for show.  The train was booked non-stop Waterloo to Exeter Queen Street (Central) but had to stop somewhere for a loco and crew change.  To avoid an obvious stand in Salisbury for some time the change was done at Wilton on this service only.  

 

Exeter Queen Street (later Central) was the SR changeover point for trains proceeding farther west.  Exmouth Junction shed had an allocation suitable for the lighter lines through mid-Devon into north Cornwall though I understand there were also Wadebridge duties through to Exeter.  Locomotives might also have been changed on occasions at Okehampton though more in connection with portion working than a need for "fresh horses".  The Exmouth Junction loco and crew would stay on the Plymouth portion while the portion for stations towards Padstow was taken over by an engine having worked up from Cornwall earlier and having been watered and coaled at Okehampton before returning.  

 

Weymouth trains usually changed locos and crew at Bournemouth Central which was blessed with ample siding and through-road space to make such moves as easy as possible.  Those train which terminated at Bournemouth West had no need of a change while the few through trains to Swanage would have changed over.  I once travelled from Swanage to Southampton Central via Bournemouth West and Ringwood.  While too young to have noted the engine details we did of course exchange steeds at the reversal in Bournemouth.  

[Aire Head]

2 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

Would you know which was which? They should have had different head boards - Thames - Clyde & Clyde Thames! Did they have the coach-side boards?

 

I believe it did and rather helpfully they were the same for both directions

[phil_sutters]

14 hours ago, Aire Head said:

 

I believe it did and rather helpfully they were the same for both directions

Coincidentally I have just read Mike McManus' description of his terrific Dent layout, in BRM, and he mentions fitting Thames-Clyde boards to some of his carriages.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, phil_sutters said:

Coincidentally I have just read Mike McManus' description of his terrific Dent layout, in BRM, and he mentions fitting Thames-Clyde boards to some of his carriages.

 

... and so presumably the same rake serves for both the up and down trains.

[MidlandRed]

As per Phil Sutters photo, Paddington to Birkenhead at Chester (even in the days of Western class diesels).

 

Also Paddington - Tenby - Pembroke Dock - I recall seeing this train at Tenby in 1963 complete with carriage headboards and was mortified on walking to the front of it to discover a 57xx pannier tank. Did this change locos at Whitland? This train particularly sticks in my mind as I had stick on carriage headboards for my Tri-ang and Trix coaching stock in the 60s - this was one of the trains included - i think there were about five different routes. 

 

As as has been mentioned the NE/SW trains changed locos at Bristol. 

 

Did some Paddington to the SW loco changes happen at Newton Abbott (for Torquay/Paignton/Kingswear)? 

Edited May 1, 2020 by MidlandRed