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Long distance trains: engine changes


JeffP
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Was there a reversal at Tenby? That was an inevitable cause of engine-changing in steam days - an example being the Bradford-London and Bradford-Bristol expresses at Leeds, worked between the two Yorkshire metropoles by Manningham's horde of tank engines - 0-4-4Ts in Midland days, later by the various sub-species of 2-6-4Ts.

 

I remember seeing a reversal at Gloucester c. 1980 but I can't recall if there were 45s being changed or just one running round. What I do remember vividly is the foul clag those engines produced. At Reading, 47s were running round cross-country trains - using the middle road between the old platforms 8 and 9 - right up until they were replaced by the Voyagers. Now it's only the driver who changes end.

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14 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Was there a reversal at Tenby? That was an inevitable cause of engine-changing in steam days - an example being the Bradford-London and Bradford-Bristol expresses at Leeds, worked between the two Yorkshire metropoles by Manningham's horde of tank engines - 0-4-4Ts in Midland days, later by the various sub-species of 2-6-4Ts.

 

I remember seeing a reversal at Gloucester c. 1980 but I can't recall if there were 45s being changed or just one running round. What I do remember vividly is the foul clag those engines produced. At Reading, 47s were running round cross-country trains - using the middle road between the old platforms 8 and 9 - right up until they were replaced by the Voyagers. Now it's only the driver who changes end.

I travelled on a couple of trains that reversed at Gloucester in 1980 and IIRC, another loco went on the rear.

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21 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

Would you know which was which? They should have had different head boards - Thames - Clyde & Clyde Thames! Did they have the coach-side boards?

46109 Royal Engineer & 45739 Ulster Leeds 30 8 52.jpg

 

Going back to Leeds for a moment, I presume that there's a Scot standing at the buffers behind the London train and a Jubilee likewise for the Glasgow train.

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36 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

At Reading, 47s were running round cross-country trains - using the middle road between the old platforms 8 and 9 - right up until they were replaced by the Voyagers. Now it's only the driver who changes end.


Run rounds really only started with sectorisation. Before that locos were changed over and the reversal time was shorter. The waiting locos had two options - the centre road between platforms 8 and 9 and the loco headshunt at the Tilehurst end.  

Edited by brushman47544
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Just now, brushman47544 said:


Run rounds really only started with sectorisation. Before that locos were changed over and the reversal time was shorter. The waiting locos had two options - the centre round between platforms 8 and 9 and the loco headshunt at the Tilehurst end.  

 

Had it been 47s both ways or was something else used on the Reading-Bournemouth leg? My observations at Reading only started in 1995.

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21 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Even without the caption, surely everyone knows the rebuilt Scot is on for the Long Drag whereas the Jubilee is for the easier road to Leicester? More challenging once the Sulzer Type 4s took over. 

 

BTW, by this date did the Leeds engines (they're both 20A, I think) work through to Glasgow and London, or were there still changes at Carlisle and Leicester?

 

The loco diagrams show that locos ran through to London St Pancras and to Glasgow St Enoch going north. The only exception was the Edinburgh trains ('The Waverley' and the overnight St Pancras sleeping car train) which, until the Peaks took over around 1961, changed locos at Carlisle, with an LNER Pacific taking over for the run over the Waverley route.

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12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Had it been 47s both ways or was something else used on the Reading-Bournemouth leg? My observations at Reading only started in 1995.


The odd Class 33 would turn up from time to time, but from the end of the 70s Class 47s were the rule. They didn’t always return south, some diagrams saw a loco arrive from Poole and then go north after a layover at Reading. Presumably to get locos back to Bescot and Crewe Diesel depots for exams/maintenance.

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Going back to Leeds for a moment, I presume that there's a Scot standing at the buffers behind the London train and a Jubilee likewise for the Glasgow train.

You can have all Dad saw! Fill your boots!

August 30th 1952 pgs 1&2.jpg

August 30th 1952 pgs 3&4.jpg

Edited by phil_sutters
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2 hours ago, brushman47544 said:


The odd Class 33 would turn up from time to time, but from the end of the 70s Class 47s were the rule. They didn’t always return south, some diagrams saw a loco arrive from Poole and then go north after a layover at Reading. Presumably to get locos back to Bescot and Crewe Diesel depots for exams/maintenance.

The Poole-Newcastle was booked a 33/1 as far as Reading during at least the early-mid 80s. There may have been the odd 50 diagram on inter regionals between Birmingham and Reading in certain years as well from memory. But as you say, mostly 47s. 

Edited by 47449xeCD
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51 minutes ago, 47449xeCD said:

The Poole-Newcastle was booked a 33/1 as far as Reading during at least the early-mid 80s. There may have been the odd 50 diagram on inter regionals between Birmingham and Reading in certain years as well from memory. But as you say, mostly 47s. 

 

Interesting. From late 1983 through to the early 90s I have no recollection of anything other than 47s working the cross country trains through Oxford.

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My notes date from 1968 and show the Poole - York (later Newcastle) train was always a 47 as were the only other two "cross-country" trains which served Southampton Central where I was observing.  The 47 did usually change at Reading for a classmate and would then lay over until the next suitable duty rather than return south.  Class 33 occasionally substituted for a 47 and one at least has reached Birmingham for this reason; I believe they were the rostered power for a short time over SR metals in the early 1980s but earlier they had so much booked work on the SR - much of it freight - that they could seldom be spared for anything other than emergency replacements.  

 

Of passing interest the summer Saturday Wolverhampton - Portsmouth trains usually produced a 46 throughout.  We questioned the route availability of a 46 up to Portsmouth Harbour and were assured it was within limits as a one-off working.  There were also 47s which reached there on summer dated trains which, as with the Wolverhampton trains, probably came via Reading West Curve rather than reversing in the station.  

 

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Was there a reversal at Tenby?

No.  Tenby has always been a through station.  Trains which were booked via the Swansea District or Landore Loop lines avoiding Swansea station changed engines farther west if required but would probably have done so at Cardiff.  Those which avoided Carmarthen likewise would have had a Cardiff engine from that station or, if reversing at Swansea, one of that depot's steeds.  Tanks were indeed used on shorter branch-line formations some of which were portions of longer main-line trains.  A decent tank-engine could probably handle a well-loaded holiday train down to Tenby / Pembroke Dock unassisted.  

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In the 70s/80s NE-SW trains like 1V93 and 1V96 (Edinburgh-Plymouth etc.) had a Deltic to York, then a Peak from there onwards.

EDIT: Also KX-Aberdeen trains would change Deltics at Edinburgh

Edited by keefer
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On 01/05/2020 at 10:56, MidlandRed said:

As per Phil Sutters photo, Paddington to Birkenhead at Chester (even in the days of Western class diesels).

 

Also Paddington - Tenby - Pembroke Dock - I recall seeing this train at Tenby in 1963 complete with carriage headboards and was mortified on walking to the front of it to discover a 57xx pannier tank. Did this change locos at Whitland? This train particularly sticks in my mind as I had stick on carriage headboards for my Tri-ang and Trix coaching stock in the 60s - this was one of the trains included - i think there were about five different routes. 

 

As as has been mentioned the NE/SW trains changed locos at Bristol. 

 

Did some Paddington to the SW loco changes happen at Newton Abbott (for Torquay/Paignton/Kingswear)? 

Some West Wales trains used to detach/attach a Pembroke Dock portion at Whitland (including the Pembroke Coast Express at one time).  Paddington Birkenhead trains normally canged engines at salo as far as I know.  I know that Old Oak men at one time worked to Salop which was always regarded as very amusing by a former colleague who had been a Guard at Paddington because he  - many years previously - used to go through to Chester with the Birkenhead trains.

 

Generally. Torbay trains from Paddington tended to be through trains but i lknbow taht it varied to & fro over the years with portions being detached/attached at Newton.  En gine changes would really only occur at Newton on the through trains if that offered the best diagramming for the engine. 

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18 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Some West Wales trains used to detach/attach a Pembroke Dock portion at Whitland (including the Pembroke Coast Express at one time).  Paddington Birkenhead trains normally canged engines at salo as far as I know.  I know that Old Oak men at one time worked to Salop which was always regarded as very amusing by a former colleague who had been a Guard at Paddington because he  - many years previously - used to go through to Chester with the Birkenhead trains.

 

Generally. Torbay trains from Paddington tended to be through trains but i lknbow taht it varied to & fro over the years with portions being detached/attached at Newton.  En gine changes would really only occur at Newton on the through trains if that offered the best diagramming for the engine. 

 

Thanks for that info - Pembroke Coast Express - that's a blast from the past and rarely mentioned train!! 

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On 01/05/2020 at 15:04, 47449xeCD said:

The Poole-Newcastle was booked a 33/1 as far as Reading during at least the early-mid 80s. There may have been the odd 50 diagram on inter regionals between Birmingham and Reading in certain years as well from memory. But as you say, mostly 47s. 

 

33/1s worked the Poole-Newcastle only on Summer Saturdays and the last year was I think 1980 (maybe 1981).  Certainly by the May 1982 timetable it was booked for a Bescot 47/4 between Poole and Reading.

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On 29/04/2020 at 10:42, Zomboid said:

I would imagine that a majority of trains running through Exeter Central would have had a different loco upon departure compared to arrival. Certainly anything to/from Waterloo.

Didn't the ACE change loco at Wilton rather than Salisbury in later days (to avoid clogging Salisbury with 16 coaches) ………. ?

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12 minutes ago, Southernman46 said:

Didn't the ACE change loco at Wilton rather than Salisbury in later days (to avoid clogging Salisbury with 16 coaches) ………. ?

It was the Devon Belle that had a loco change at Wilton. The ACE was remanned at Salisbury, and of course had a change of loco at Exeter Central.

 

cheers

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The ACE ran in multiple portions on Summer Saturdays. The one we caught changed locos at Salisbury as well as Exeter. I can't be precise about year, but it was before 1963, when parents bought a secondhand car. 

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The ACE changed locos and crews at both Salisbury and Exeter Central.  My great uncle drove from Wadebridge shed and whilst I was too young to have learned from him directly - and he had a reputation for not tolerating fools or enthusiasts (one and the same, apparently, in his book) it is known that he both drove the ACE at times and seldom if ever worked east of Okehampton.   Assuming the loco which came on at Exeter went to Plymouth with its crew it makes sense that a Wadebridge crew, using an Exmouth junction light Pacific often as not, took over the North Cornwall portion from Okehampton.

 

As Ian says on summer Saturdays the train ran in several "portions" (actually quite separate trains) from Waterloo with through carriage or carriages to most SR branches; these were detached at the respective junctions and had (usually) a branch line engine, often a tank, coupled to work the train.  

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That's the thing I remember most  reading about the ACE - on a 13-coach train, 10 or 11 of them were brake coaches (or however many coaches there were).

As has been said, separate coaches for all the different branches. If the split sections were, say, 3 coaches I could understand it but for so many 1- or 2-coach portions, it does seem a very inefficient way of working (as opposed to 'get off at station X and change for the branch train to y).

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9 minutes ago, keefer said:

That's the thing I remember most  reading about the ACE - on a 13-coach train, 10 or 11 of them were brake coaches (or however many coaches there were).

As has been said, separate coaches for all the different branches. If the split sections were, say, 3 coaches I could understand it but for so many 1- or 2-coach portions, it does seem a very inefficient way of working (as opposed to 'get off at station X and change for the branch train to y).

 

Luggage.

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Back in the day efficiency came second to offering a convenient direct service.  Particularly to the main seaside holiday resorts.  

 

IIRC there were three separate trains departing Waterloo at or close to 11am which formed the summer Saturday "ACE".  One was for Ilfracombe and Torrington, another for Plymouth and Padstow (shedding a Bude portion at Halwill) both fast Waterloo - Salisbury - Exeter and the third was in effect the "through train" to the branches and a semi-fast to Exeter formed largely of BCK coaches offering first and second (or third class if you go back a bit) smoking and non-smoking accommodation, plus a modest luggage van, all in the one carriage.  Busier branches would have had two or three through carriages.  

Edited by Gwiwer
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49 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

Back in the day efficiency came second to offering a convenient direct service.  Particularly to the main seaside holiday resorts.  

 

I would beg to suggest that efficiency as well as convenience for both the company and its passengers certainly came into it. It must have been more efficient to have passengers and their luggage safely stowed in the correct carriage at Waterloo than to be man-handling both at innumerable junction stations - with the risk of passengers and luggage being disembarked at the wrong junction. 

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On 01/05/2020 at 12:05, Compound2632 said:

At Reading, 47s were running round cross-country trains - using the middle road between the old platforms 8 and 9 - right up until they were replaced by the Voyagers. Now it's only the driver who changes end.

 

On 01/05/2020 at 12:28, brushman47544 said:

Run rounds really only started with sectorisation. Before that locos were changed over and the reversal time was shorter.

 

Also, IIRC, around the same time as the 47/8 long-range tank conversions

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