Long distance trains: engine changes

[Ken.W]

On 30/04/2020 at 15:28, Compound2632 said:

 

Even without the caption, surely everyone knows the rebuilt Scot is on for the Long Drag whereas the Jubilee is for the easier road to Leicester? More challenging once the Sulzer Type 4s took over.

 

On 01/05/2020 at 12:47, Leander said:

 

The loco diagrams show that locos ran through to London St Pancras and to Glasgow St Enoch going north. The only exception was the Edinburgh trains ('The Waverley' and the overnight St Pancras sleeping car train) which, until the Peaks took over around 1961, changed locos at Carlisle, with an LNER Pacific taking over for the run over the Waverley route.

 

It would have been more obvious to tell them apart for a couple of years before the Peaks came, when A3s took over on the S&C.

 

Surely a simple matter you'd have thought of looking at the departure board as you arrive the station, which tells the platform number your trains at, and each side of the platform would have different numbers?

But no, still too complicated for some people it would seem, as regularly observed at Kings X for example, when there's two similar trains either side of a platform.

Perhaps only one side of each platform should be used?

 

[Rivercider]

22 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

The ACE ran in multiple portions on Summer Saturdays. The one we caught changed locos at Salisbury as well as Exeter. I can't be precise about year, but it was before 1963, when parents bought a secondhand car. 

I know I had seen pictures of the ACE at Salisbury with just a crew change, so I have had a look though some of my books.

Portrait of the Atlantic Coast Express by Stephen Austin has details of loco working. From  1926 to 1952 locos were usually changed at Salisbury apart from an unsuccessful trial in 1933. Thereafter locos mostly worked through between Waterloo and Exeter apart from the down Padstow/Bude train which was worked forward by a Salisbury loco on summer Saturdays, the only booked  postwar working for a Salisbury loco on the ACE.

I have seen quite a few photos taken at Salisbury where a 'spare' Salisbury crew were booked to shovel coal forward in the tender during the station stop.

 

cheers

[Ian Hargrave]

On 30/04/2020 at 14:55, The Stationmaster said:

The longest GWR routes would have been Paddington - Plymouth via Bristol (245 miles, and most through working was via Lavington which is about 20 miles shorter) and Paddington - Shrewsbury (not sure of mileage with out checking but through engine working was not so common as changes usually took place at Wolverhampton).  

 

According to those involved the toughest jobs on the Western were the double home (lodging) turns between Newton Abbot & Shrewsbury.  215 miles with an awful lot of tough gradients sprinkled through the route including Filton Bank northbound and the Severn Tunnel plus the seesaw of the North & West - it was the job which both the depots kept their best 'Castles' for, letting them do little else.  In fact my final 'Castle' cop was one of Newton's engines which only got elsewhere after 'Warships' went on to the N&W route trains.

 
I believe summer Saturday workings to the Cambrian did see through workings from Paddington to Shrewsbury,though this has sparked a vague memory of the Saturday CCE changing locos at Wolverhampton LL ,avoiding Shrewsbury station with 43XX power at head and straight on to the Cambrian . Anyone care to comment on this  ? 
With regard to the N&W workings,the improved WR Counties also did some work to good effect.The arrival of the Warships on these workings also saw these trains reverse at Newport High Street instead taking of the avoiding curve.The diesel performed a run round. I remember Salop Castles for their immaculate condition....Salop being the GW term for Shrewsbury.They were heavy trains with portions from as far afield as Glasgow and Penzance.Their motive power in the length of their respective journeys could include anything from a Duchess and Princess to a Castle or a King.Shrewsbury was a fascinating station to visit and watch.

[Ian Hargrave]

On 30/04/2020 at 14:39, phil_sutters said:

Would you know which was which? They should have had different head boards - Thames - Clyde & Clyde Thames! Did they have the coach-side boards?

 Note that that they are both Holbeck locos ( 20 A ). This depot provided power for trains from/to Glasgow ,London and Bristol.One day Ulster ( on the right)  the up Thames Clyde or after a return trip to St.Pancras,The Devonian to Bristol,returning the same evening on the 7:25 Newcastle Mail to York.Later The Waverley over the S&C to Carlisle.

[The Johnster]

33 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

this has sparked a vague memory of the Saturday CCE changing locos at Wolverhampton LL ,avoiding Shrewsbury station with 43XX power at head and straight on to the Cambrian . Anyone care to comment on this  ? 

The CCE was booked to stop at Salop, and would not use the south curve, but it is possible that a relief to it would not need to, as a relief would not be advertised to Salop passengers and if seat reservations were required, passengers for Salop could be booked to the 'main' train.  I suspect the 43xx did not make it past Machynlleth with the Pwllheli portion, though might have worked through to Aberystwyth.

 

Salop in those days was probably the only place you would get to see Kings and Duchesses/Princesses alongside each other, as Crewe used the route for running in turns in BR days.  You would, in fact, see pretty much any loco repaired or built new at Crewe works there, as well as GW esoterica like Dukedogs, RODs and 72xx; as you say, a very interesting place to trainwatch.

Edited May 4, 2020 by The Johnster

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Salop [...], as Crewe used the route for running in turns in BR days.  

 

A well-established practice dating from LNWR days. 

[The Johnster]

Didn't know it went as far back as that, Compound!

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Didn't know it went as far back as that, Compound!

 

Many things do.

[MidlandRed]

4 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 
I remember Salop Castles for their immaculate condition....Salop being the GW term for Shrewsbury....,

 

Im sure the general public got this as well - or did they - as most Midlanders know, Salop in non GWR terminology is the shortened version of Shropshire (the whole County)!!! I worked out what you were talking about though (especially running in turns from Crewe!!). 

Edited May 4, 2020 by MidlandRed

[The Johnster]

If they built a restricted gauge metro system in the city of Shrewsbury, would it be the Salopian Tube.  Ok, I know, coat...

 

I like Salop, Shrewsbury the city, a lovely place full of great old pubs, lotsa history, and friendly locals, despite the racist anti Welsh by laws.  I don't see why I should hand in my sword, dagger, or bow to the gatekeeper, nor why I should have found accommodation in an inn before the sun sets, if the English are allowed not to do so.  I suppose it's better than Chester, where they are allowed to shoot a Welshman with a bow and arrow if he is on the streets after sunset.

[kevinlms]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

A well-established practice dating from LNWR days. 

Why not? It's far enough to be worthwhile, yet not blocking the WCML if something went wrong!

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

A well-established practice dating from LNWR days. 

And a number of published photos of streamlined 'Princess Coronations' there on running-in turns from Crewe.  Which is very fitting because on the day I visited Crewe Bank signal box at Salop the Signalman was busily putting a Portescap motor into a new chassis of kit origin to go under a Hornby LMS streamliner on which he'd made a number of body mods.

 

Incidentally not only was Salop widely used on the GWR for Shrewsbury but it was also the GWR shed code for there.

17 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 
I believe summer Saturday workings to the Cambrian did see through workings from Paddington to Shrewsbury,though this has sparked a vague memory of the Saturday CCE changing locos at Wolverhampton LL ,avoiding Shrewsbury station with 43XX power at head and straight on to the Cambrian . Anyone care to comment on this  ? 
With regard to the N&W workings,the improved WR Counties also did some work to good effect.The arrival of the Warships on these workings also saw these trains reverse at Newport High Street instead taking of the avoiding curve.The diesel performed a run round. I remember Salop Castles for their immaculate condition....Salop being the GW term for Shrewsbury.They were heavy trains with portions from as far afield as Glasgow and Penzance.Their motive power in the length of their respective journeys could include anything from a Duchess and Princess to a Castle or a King.Shrewsbury was a fascinating station to visit and watch.

The Summer Saturday CCE was definitely not booked to call at Salop in some years - the one I have very quickly found as an example was the 1957 Summer service.  Some photos suggest that the train might well have been double-headed as there are published photos of it being double headed south of Salop by a mogul and a 'Dukedog'.

[Ian Hargrave]

29 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

And a number of published photos of streamlined 'Princess Coronations' there on running-in turns from Crewe.  Which is very fitting because on the day I visited Crewe Bank signal box at Salop the Signalman was busily putting a Portescap motor into a new chassis of kit origin to go under a Hornby LMS streamliner on which he'd made a number of body mods.

 

Incidentally not only was Salop widely used on the GWR for Shrewsbury but it was also the GWR shed code for there.

The Summer Saturday CCE was definitely not booked to call at Salop in some years - the one I have very quickly found as an example was the 1957 Summer service.  Some photos suggest that the train might well have been double-headed as there are published photos of it being double headed south of Salop by a mogul and a 'Dukedog'.

 
That’s interesting because I remember a spotting excursion to Shrewsbury on  Saturday in June of that year.Vale of Neath to Pontypool Road and Canton 70020 onwards.This was a Saturday extra from Cardiff to Manchester Mayfield and the stock was interesting in that it was a crimson and cream rake of ex ER Thompsons. I think I had a complete coach all to myself the whole way.Anyway,during the course of the afternoon,I observed what ,rightly or wrongly,I thought was the CCE  or an extra pass to the south avoiding a station stop with a pair of Moguls at its head.I believe they worked onwards from Wolverhampton.

[LMS2968]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

 

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Incidentally not only was Salop widely used on the GWR for Shrewsbury but it was also the GWR shed code for there.

It was also the term on the LMS, and the one I've always used.

Edited May 5, 2020 by LMS2968

[GeoffAlan]

On 29/04/2020 at 12:04, Pandora said:

Under which CME's  did steam locomotives become so reliable they could tackle 400+ mile  trips without attention to oiling of bearings etc  during the trip  ?

Sir Nigel did it with his A3 and A4 Pacifics, as did Sir William with his. I don't think oil capacity was the real limiting factor as has been said above ash and clinker were the problem.

[Pandora]

The discussion gave me a new perspective on Stanier vs Gresley ,  An A4 would not see too many gradients on a run KX to Edinburgh,  but a Duchess would have to  see the hard work of a climb of Shap and then Beattock summits  after covering 80 to 90% of the mileage.

Would a  King or a Castle,  or Bulleid Merchant Navy  be able to  tackle  400+ miles  Euston - Glasgow including the slog up  Shap and Beattock? 

[w124bob]

Here's an example of one I've actually worked, going back to just before New st and Manchester Victoria lost their long distance work. Train is an afternoon Birmingham to Glasgow(train may have started in the west country)diesel hauled.

Crew change at Stockport via Piccadilly and Bolton to Preston

engine off to work forward with a Glasgow to LIverpool

Light engine Lime st to Preston to work 21.39 Glasgow to Manchester Piccadilly ecs forward to Longsight dispose of engine and back to Vic to book off (in reality I'd dumped my car at Longsight for a quick getaway)

On one occasion cl 47 declared a failure at Preston so sub a 31 for the trip to Liverpool , but this was required for a parcels at Preston, 56013 sent from Springs Branch to work the 21.39. From Longsight I took the 56 back to Vic for a Springs Branch driver to get it home. Euston Blackpool service was an engine change at Preston. 

Reading for cross country services didn't always use the same diesel when reversing. 

Leicester was an unusual one as it was an engine change or engine off for a morning train from Derby, there was  service used  as break in trip for ex works loco's .

[The Johnster]

13 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Why not? It's far enough to be worthwhile, yet not blocking the WCML if something went wrong!

All the railway workshops would have established practices for running in/snagging of new and newly overhauled locomotives before handing them over to the loco dept. for traffic; this was Crewe's.  Swindon used a Didcot stopper, and the Highworth branch for smaller locos, and during Churchward's time ran locos light down the Badminton cut-off, turned them on the triangle at Stoke Gifford, and if no problems had been encountered on the way down. went for a fast run on the up journey.

[LMS2968]

3 hours ago, Pandora said:

The discussion gave me a new perspective on Stanier vs Gresley ,  An A4 would not see too many gradients on a run KX to Edinburgh,  but a Duchess would have to  see the hard work of a climb of Shap and then Beattock summits  after covering 80 to 90% of the mileage.

Would a  King or a Castle,  or Bulleid Merchant Navy  be able to  tackle  400+ miles  Euston - Glasgow including the slog up  Shap and Beattock? 

The Stanier Pacifics could have banking assistance over Shap and Beattock, and would generally let the banker do much of the work. Normally, they would do without and make the climb unassisted with up to 14 coaches an Shap and twelve on Beattock. It would be unfair to subject the GWR engines to a 400 mile run: their narrow fireboxes and ashpans, not designed for such duties, would be exhausted long before the terminus. The LMS and LNER Pacifics were built to allow this, and I imagine that the Bulleid Pacifics could probably manage it also.

[The Stationmaster]

40 minutes ago, LMS2968 said:

The Stanier Pacifics could have banking assistance over Shap and Beattock, and would generally let the banker do much of the work. Normally, they would do without and make the climb unassisted with up to 14 coaches an Shap and twelve on Beattock. It would be unfair to subject the GWR engines to a 400 mile run: their narrow fireboxes and ashpans, not designed for such duties, would be exhausted long before the terminus. The LMS and LNER Pacifics were built to allow this, and I imagine that the Bulleid Pacifics could probably manage it also.

I think the longest run on the GWR - which was really only in the early days of the route via the Swansea District Line was Paddington - Fishguard which no doubt Mr Churchward made very clear to his enginemen would not present a problem    

 

I agree absolutely that the ashpan capacity is very much the limiting factor although a lot depended also on the coal being used because a coal with low ash content wouldn't be so quick to choke the ashpan and the type of coal had other effects as well.  it was not unheard of in the 1950s for 'Kings' working Paddington - Plymouth to have to come off at Newton Abbot for coal.  And it was alsonot unheard of for East Coast pacifics (not A4s)to arrive in the 'Cross with nowt but coal dust in the tender on a working through from Newcastle.

[Siberian Snooper]

3 hours ago, Pandora said:

The discussion gave me a new perspective on Stanier vs Gresley ,  An A4 would not see too many gradients on a run KX to Edinburgh,  but a Duchess would have to  see the hard work of a climb of Shap and then Beattock summits  after covering 80 to 90% of the mileage.

Would a  King or a Castle,  or Bulleid Merchant Navy  be able to  tackle  400+ miles  Euston - Glasgow including the slog up  Shap and Beattock? 

 

39 minutes ago, LMS2968 said:

The Stanier Pacifics could have banking assistance over Shap and Beattock, and would generally let the banker do much of the work. Normally, they would do without and make the climb unassisted with up to 14 coaches an Shap and twelve on Beattock. It would be unfair to subject the GWR engines to a 400 mile run: their narrow fireboxes and ashpans, not designed for such duties, would be exhausted long before the terminus. The LMS and LNER Pacifics were built to allow this, and I imagine that the Bulleid Pacifics could probably manage it also.

 

GW engines would be close to or have empty tenders by the time they were in the Lancaster area.

 

On arduous Riviera runs on occasion the fireman would be sweeping the tender out on the climb up Rattery.

 

 

[Pandora]

Some coals burn hotter than others, I think it was one of the last runs of a Castle, a swansong with 100mph on the agenda,  the crew complained the coal provided was "too good" the firebars  melted and the loco failed during the run!

Did the sheds take care to  blend coal for locos?

Mix the worst with the best to arrive at at decent average  mix for traffic requirements?  

[Siberian Snooper]

3 hours ago, Pandora said:

Some coals burn hotter than others, I think it was one of the last runs of a Castle, a swansong with 100mph on the agenda,  the crew complained the coal provided was "too good" the firebars  melted and the loco failed during the run!

Did the sheds take care to  blend coal for locos?

Mix the worst with the best to arrive at at decent average  mix for traffic requirements?  

 

I knew the fireman  Doug, on that trip, he told us that there was a combination of events that lead to the melting of the firebars, he dis say that the fire did burn well, but that the wind direction on the day was a contributory factor as well as the way the engine was being driven.

 

 

[47449xeCD]

On 03/05/2020 at 23:20, DY444 said:

 

33/1s worked the Poole-Newcastle only on Summer Saturdays and the last year was I think 1980 (maybe 1981).  Certainly by the May 1982 timetable it was booked for a Bescot 47/4 between Poole and Reading.

It was booked a 33/1 on weekdays in the summer 1981 timetable at least. 

[47449xeCD]

On 01/05/2020 at 22:57, Compound2632 said:

 

Interesting. From late 1983 through to the early 90s I have no recollection of anything other than 47s working the cross country trains through Oxford.

This discussion made me start looking through old copies of “Loco Hauled Travel” which was a trip down memory lane (so thanks!). It was far from being an exhaustive search, but an example of an inter-regional 50 diagram on the route was 1O15 0900 Manchester - Poole (Mon-Sat) between Coventry and Reading during the winter 1985/6 timetable. I do think there many have been other examples in different time periods but scouring old train books is a big rabbit hole to fall down!