Long distance trains: engine changes

[Zomboid]

On 05/05/2020 at 15:04, Pandora said:

Would a  King or a Castle,  or Bulleid Merchant Navy  be able to  tackle  400+ miles  Euston - Glasgow including the slog up  Shap and Beattock? 

If the GWR/ SR/ LNER routes had had those requirements, chances are they'd have built their engines differently.

That's a bit like asking how an 8F would have coped with a mile of boxcars on Sherman hill.

[Compound2632]

28 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

If the GWR/ SR/ LNER routes had had those requirements, chances are they'd have built their engines differently.

That's a bit like asking how an 8F would have coped with a mile of boxcars on Sherman hill.

 

Although, curiously enough, the Caledonian and the London & South Western, which had rather similar gradient profiles thanks to Joseph Locke, had by the end of the 19th century very similar locomotives.

[Zomboid]

43 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Although, curiously enough, the Caledonian and the London & South Western, which had rather similar gradient profiles thanks to Joseph Locke, had by the end of the 19th century very similar locomotives

Weren't their locos designed by the multitude of Drummonds? Might account for some similarities...

 

Edit - Dugald Drummond in both cases

Edited May 7, 2020 by Zomboid

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

Weren't their locos designed by the multitude of Drummonds? Might account for some similarities...

 

Edit - Dugald Drummond in both cases

 

Well, in the Caledonian case, school of Drummond.

[DY444]

On 07/05/2020 at 03:20, 47449xeCD said:

It was booked a 33/1 on weekdays in the summer 1981 timetable at least. 

 

The northbound train was 1E63 and the southbound was 1O19.  The document I have for Summer 1981 M-F has 1E63 booked for a 47 and 1O19 booked for a 33/1.  The summer 1982 M-F document shows both booked for a 47.

Edited May 8, 2020 by DY444

[Compound2632]

In both the 50 and 33 cases recently mentioned, there must have been balancing workings...

[67A]

On 01/05/2020 at 07:56, phil_sutters said:

Coincidentally I have just read Mike McManus' description of his terrific Dent layout, in BRM, and he mentions fitting Thames-Clyde boards to some of his carriages.

Hi all,

Just browsing and came across this topic. On my Dent layout I have cheated a bit, the Thames-Clyde runs in both Up and Down directions with coach headboards saying 'Thames-Clyde Express' 'St.Pancras-Glasgow' then on the opposite side of the coaches the headboards say 'The Waverley' 'St.Pancras-Edinburgh'. Therefore I can easily use the crossover for one train but have to physically turn the stock to run as the other.

 

I am still trying to find evidence of the destination boards e.g 'St.Pancras-Glasgow' being provided as 'Glasgow-St.Pancras' but no joy as yet.

 

I do recall an overnight journey from St.Pancras to Glasgow back in  the 1970's which took about 11 hours and reversed at Nottingham, Wakefield and Leeds, with all the changes in direction I had no idea where I was at times!

[47449xeCD]

On 08/05/2020 at 15:45, DY444 said:

 

The northbound train was 1E63 and the southbound was 1O19.  The document I have for Summer 1981 M-F has 1E63 booked for a 47 and 1O19 booked for a 33/1.  The summer 1982 M-F document shows both booked for a 47.

What does your document say the engine off 1E63 does next? I’d been under the impression that 1O19 came off 1E63, so would be interesting to compare. 

[47449xeCD]

17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

In both the 50 and 33 cases recently mentioned, there must have been balancing workings...

The 50 would have been off Saltley (plenty of 50 turns in/out of Brum in those days), and from memory went light to London afterwards for a later turn out of Paddington. 

[caradoc]

On 01/05/2020 at 15:57, Compound2632 said:

 

Interesting. From late 1983 through to the early 90s I have no recollection of anything other than 47s working the cross country trains through Oxford.

 

Class 50 was still working the route throughout 1984, for example on the 27th December 50040 was on the 0940 Poole-Newcastle which I joined at Oxford. Perhaps sectorisation put an end to them on the route - Did all the class go to NSE ?

 

BTW Peaks crept in occasionally as well; On the 19th January 1984 45134 worked the 1307 Paddington-Liverpool, and on February 15th 45115 worked the same train. There was also of course the FO 1246 Portsmouth-Leeds with a 33, on the 2nd March 1984 33017 for example. Oh that such variety could be seen on the route today !

 

 

[Ian J.]

Not so much long distance, but certainly cross-region, I was under the impression that during steam operation the Cardiff/Bristol - Portsmouth workings had BR(W) locomotives to Salisbury, then BR(S) locos to Portsmouth? In later years with diesels that seemed to disappear, with Hymeks and then 33/0s doing the job for the whole route.

[brushman47544]

1 hour ago, caradoc said:

 

Class 50 was still working the route throughout 1984, for example on the 27th December 50040 was on the 0940 Poole-Newcastle which I joined at Oxford. Perhaps sectorisation put an end to them on the route - Did all the class go to NSE ?

 

BTW Peaks crept in occasionally as well; On the 19th January 1984 45134 worked the 1307 Paddington-Liverpool, and on February 15th 45115 worked the same train. There was also of course the FO 1246 Portsmouth-Leeds with a 33, on the 2nd March 1984 33017 for example. Oh that such variety could be seen on the route today !

No Class 50s went to the InterCity sector, so in theory at sectorisation their use on IC cross country trains should have ceased.

 

There was a weekday 45/1 diagram at that time, 09.35? Cardiff - Paddington then 13.07 Paddington - Liverpool. A Canton driver up to Padd. then a Saltley driver from Padd.

 

38 minutes ago, Ian J. said:

Not so much long distance, but certainly cross-region, I was under the impression that during steam operation the Cardiff/Bristol - Portsmouth workings had BR(W) locomotives to Salisbury, then BR(S) locos to Portsmouth? In later years with diesels that seemed to disappear, with Hymeks and then 33/0s doing the job for the whole route.

 

and Bath Road 31s for a few years between the Hymeks and 33s.

[pH]

11 hours ago, 67A said:

I do recall an overnight journey from St.Pancras to Glasgow back in  the 1970's which took about 11 hours and reversed at Nottingham, Wakefield and Leeds, with all the changes in direction I had no idea where I was at times!

 

Out of interest, why was there a reversal at Wakefield? Between 1972 and 1976, I travelled Glasgow-Sheffield and Glasgow-Nottingham through Leeds quite a few times, both daytime and overnight, and by several variations of route. I don't ever remember a reversal at Wakefield, though, if it was on the sleeper, I could have been asleep at that point.

[MidlandRed]

On 5 May 2020 at 00:38, The Johnster said:

If they built a restricted gauge metro system in the city of Shrewsbury, would it be the Salopian Tube.  Ok, I know, coat...

 

I like Salop, Shrewsbury the city, a lovely place full of great old pubs, lotsa history, and friendly locals, despite the racist anti Welsh by laws.  I don't see why I should hand in my sword, dagger, or bow to the gatekeeper, nor why I should have found accommodation in an inn before the sun sets, if the English are allowed not to do so.  I suppose it's better than Chester, where they are allowed to shoot a Welshman with a bow and arrow if he is on the streets after sunset.

 

Haha Johnster - interesting thought! I can't imagine a historic town like Shrewsbury, and of its size, supporting a salopian LRT though. 

 

On the subject of the WR (and LMR it seems) and names, Hawksworth seems to have got it right with 1026 (County of Salop) - strangely more than one seem to have had the shortened form of the County name (eg Hants) - as these are usually used to save space I thought, hmmm maybe they were saving money - then I saw Montgomery so clearly not. I wonder if it was possible to be hauled to the town of Salop (railway terminology)  by County of Salop in WR steam days!! 

 

Much as the leaders of Shrewsbury would possibly applaud it, Shrewsbury remains a town (not a city) but is a delightful place I agree entirely - perhaps not quite as good a train watching place as in the 60s, and definitely without those fabulous bright red buses of the same era!! 

Edited May 9, 2020 by MidlandRed

[MidlandRed]

7 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

 

and Bath Road 31s for a few years between the Hymeks and 33s.

 

Were the Cardiff/Bristol - Portsmouth services operated by Inter City (eventually class 123) DMUs at one time (green livery 60s days)?

Edited May 9, 2020 by MidlandRed

[The Johnster]

Yes they were, as was a short lived Cardiff-Derby service.  This ran via the Lickey and did not serve Worcester. 

[pH]

1 hour ago, MidlandRed said:

I wonder if it was possible to be hauled to the town of Salop (railway terminology)  by County of Salop in WR steam days!! 

 

According to the BR database website - definitely! 1026 was allocated to Shrewsbury from 1955 to withdrawal in 1962.

 

http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&type=S&id=1026&loco=1026

[Rivercider]

10 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

No Class 50s went to the InterCity sector, so in theory at sectorisation their use on IC cross country trains should have ceased.

 

There was a weekday 45/1 diagram at that time, 09.35? Cardiff - Paddington then 13.07 Paddington - Liverpool. A Canton driver up to Padd. then a Saltley driver from Padd.

 

 

 

The 06.40 (ish) Weston-super-Mare to Cardiff Central service ran for several years, and this formed the Cardiff Central to Paddington service. Living in Weston I saw the train often, and I remember it as being worked by class 47 and 50, with a class 45 less often,

 

cheers  

[67A]

14 hours ago, pH said:

 

Out of interest, why was there a reversal at Wakefield? Between 1972 and 1976, I travelled Glasgow-Sheffield and Glasgow-Nottingham through Leeds quite a few times, both daytime and overnight, and by several variations of route. I don't ever remember a reversal at Wakefield, though, if it was on the sleeper, I could have been asleep at that point.

I honestly have no idea, it was definitely an overnight service and recall having to change my position (i.e. to face front) at all these locations, most annoying. The Wakefield stop has puzzled me but I definitely recall it. I can say it would have been a Sunday night - Monday morning service as I was on one of my full weekend trainspotting trips around all the stations and sheds in the capital spending Saturday night roughing it in a small platform room on the suburban side of Paddington station which was almost deserted through the night. Train would arrive at Glasgow about 06.30 which gave me time to get straight to St.Rollox Works where I had a shower and a change of clothes ready and waiting. I did a lot of Western region bashing back then as I just loved the hydraulics, the privilege ticket and free pass were very well battered back then. 

[MidlandRed]

15 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Yes they were, as was a short lived Cardiff-Derby service.  This ran via the Lickey and did not serve Worcester. 

 

I have a photo of one on the Derby - Cardiff in a picture album book - The Heydey Of The DMU (Alan C Butcher) - the caption says it's August 1964 and the 1720 from Derby, north of Lickey - headcode is 1V72. Clearly one the first services these units were used on - I presume missing out Worcester, as with some NE/SW trains was to avoid it getting over run with commuters and local trains/freight. 

[The Johnster]

I rode on one from Cardiff to visit rellys in Tamworth in the autumn of '62, (I was 10) and as these units featured a door with a window that led to the cab end vestibule in the DMS, I positioned myself there.  The Cardiff driver was relieved at Gloucester, and as soon as we were under way the Gloucester man unlocked the door and beckoned me through; I was there for the rest of the journey.  I do not recall seeing any diesel hauled freight from that point; this had already changed by the time I did a shedbash to Brum in early 63, though there was still plenty of steam to be seen.  

 

The Inter City 4 car sets were geared for 75mph running, as opposed to the 70mph of other dmus (I believe the Trans Pennines were as well, but with a higher power/weight ratio and Commonwealth bogies) and I recall the driver saying that this was not much help on the Lickey; he did not ask for a banker though and we cleared Bromsgrove with no problem, just not very quickly!  When I worked on them on the Cardiff-Crewes in the 70s they were not too bad on the banks, but had been reduced to 3 car units by then.

 

Steam Cardiff-Portsmouth workings pre-1962 did not call at Temple Meads, and the Bristol stop was Stapleton Road, then the left turn at Dr. Day's.  The loco change was at Salisbury, and though the regional border was at Dilton Marsh the scene was pure GW into Salisbury.  I do not know off hand when the GW shed there closed, or what motive power the Southern used; it was mostly Halls our end and, as an off region working for a Canton loco, the full Canton cleaning was given, which was also done for the 72xx on the Radyr-Salisbury coal.  I would guess something like an S15 beyond Salisbury.  

[Ian Hargrave]

2 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I rode on one from Cardiff to visit rellys in Tamworth in the autumn of '62, (I was 10) and as these units featured a door with a window that led to the cab end vestibule in the DMS, I positioned myself there.  The Cardiff driver was relieved at Gloucester, and as soon as we were under way the Gloucester man unlocked the door and beckoned me through; I was there for the rest of the journey.  I do not recall seeing any diesel hauled freight from that point; this had already changed by the time I did a shedbash to Brum in early 63, though there was still plenty of steam to be seen.  

 

The Inter City 4 car sets were geared for 75mph running, as opposed to the 70mph of other dmus (I believe the Trans Pennines were as well, but with a higher power/weight ratio and Commonwealth bogies) and I recall the driver saying that this was not much help on the Lickey; he did not ask for a banker though and we cleared Bromsgrove with no problem, just not very quickly!  When I worked on them on the Cardiff-Crewes in the 70s they were not too bad on the banks, but had been reduced to 3 car units by then.

 

Steam Cardiff-Portsmouth workings pre-1962 did not call at Temple Meads, and the Bristol stop was Stapleton Road, then the left turn at Dr. Day's.  The loco change was at Salisbury, and though the regional border was at Dilton Marsh the scene was pure GW into Salisbury.  I do not know off hand when the GW shed there closed, or what motive power the Southern used; it was mostly Halls our end and, as an off region working for a Canton loco, the full Canton cleaning was given, which was also done for the 72xx on the Radyr-Salisbury coal.  I would guess something like an S15 beyond Salisbury.  

SR Central section plus 72B would use anything they could lay their hands on to work the relatively short distances involved from Salisbury onwards...N&U 2-6-0’s,Standard 4MT 76xxx,Bulleid Q1/WC/BB,T9 etc.

[The Johnster]

I know stock could be supplied from both regions, but in rakes, so post 1956 green coaches began to appear at Cardiff.  WR sets of mixed Colletts and Hawksworths, and SR sets of mostly Maunsells were typical, trains loaded to 7 or 8 bogies IIRC.  Stops Newport, Bristol Stapleton Road, Bath, Westbury, Salisbury but I am not sure beyond there.  By the time spotting trips took me to Eastleigh we were getting off at Salisbury and catching Hampshire demus to Eastleigh after bunking Salisbury.  The 123s were still in use on the Cardiff-Portsmouths in 1967, but the Derbys had long been discontinued.  You were still routed via Hereford and connection for Worcester, though.

 

IIRC the introduction of the 123s on Cardiff-Derby ended the service via Hereford and Worcester/Kidderminster to Snow Hill.  This had been an early convert to dmu operation starting with 126s in 1956, replaced 2 years later by 120s and sent to Scotland; it had some form with diesels having been one of the routes used by GW railcars.

[keefer]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

The Inter City 4 car sets were geared for 75mph running, as opposed to the 70mph of other dmus (I believe the Trans Pennines were as well, but with a higher power/weight ratio and Commonwealth bogies)

The IC units were the only DMUs to have B4 ( or B4-derived) bogies, so probably would've been ok up to 90-100mph!

The TP units had extra powered intermediate vehicles (MBSs, unique for a DMMU but of course very common in EMUs) so had 4/6 or 3/4 cars powered. 

They didn't have Commonwealth bogies, just the standard DMU type.

The only multiple-unit to have all-CW bogies (inc. motor bogies) was the AM9 'Clacton' EMU.

Edited May 10, 2020 by keefer

[MidlandRed]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I know stock could be supplied from both regions, but in rakes, so post 1956 green coaches began to appear at Cardiff.  WR sets of mixed Colletts and Hawksworths, and SR sets of mostly Maunsells were typical, trains loaded to 7 or 8 bogies IIRC.  Stops Newport, Bristol Stapleton Road, Bath, Westbury, Salisbury but I am not sure beyond there.  By the time spotting trips took me to Eastleigh we were getting off at Salisbury and catching Hampshire demus to Eastleigh after bunking Salisbury.  The 123s were still in use on the Cardiff-Portsmouths in 1967, but the Derbys had long been discontinued.  You were still routed via Hereford and connection for Worcester, though.

 

IIRC the introduction of the 123s on Cardiff-Derby ended the service via Hereford and Worcester/Kidderminster to Snow Hill.  This had been an early convert to dmu operation starting with 126s in 1956, replaced 2 years later by 120s and sent to Scotland; it had some form with diesels having been one of the routes used by GW railcars.

 

Some of the DMU and railcar services from Bham Snow Hill to Cardiff ran via Hatton, Stratford, Honeybourne, Gloucester. I did think earlier the Derby to Cardiff (avoiding Worcester) was following the same route and stops beyond Birmingham largely but avoiding the need to reverse at BNS by following the Lickey route plus avoiding Worcester. An interesting service. 

Edited May 10, 2020 by MidlandRed