GWR level crossing lamps 1930s

[GWR_Modeller]

Hi, I was wondering what colour were the lamps on GWR crossing gates during this period?

 

At the Didcot reconstruction they use black lamps (obvioulsy with red glass)  but I have seen many models and photos with red.  Sometimes the date of the representation is unclear.  During my reading I dont recollect the lamp colour being mentioned. 

 

But as usual I did found out some interesting details.  The red disc was introduced pre Great War ca 1905.  Also until the mid 1920s gates were normally closed against road traffic until a vehicle arrived and only then they were opened.  After that time crossings could be exempted from that rule and were left open to road traffic until a train needed to pass and some crossings where operated both ways at different times and days.  It was interesting to find out one face of gas lamps adjacent to the pedestrian gates, ie the one facing towards the road, was often red as well.  One of the things I still have read more about was the signalling at crossings because one sentence suggested each crossing had its own stop signals and a lodge w gate keeper.

 

Thanks in advance for your assistance.

[The Stationmaster]

The Railway Clauses Act of 1845 legislated a requirement that at any level crossing of a public road over the gates should be normally closed to road traffic in such a manner that completely fenced the railway, unless the Board of Trade required otherwise.    And that remains the case today except for 'Board of Trade' now read 'Dept for Transport'.  Effectively it that means is that level crossings on public roads should have teh gates closed across the road exceot where the relevant Level Crossing Order states otherwise - which of course will inevitably be the case for most of the modern types of level crossing.            

 

So as far as gates are concerned - normally closed across the road but from 1845 the Board of Trade (and its successors) could rule otherwise in the case of any particular crossings where circumstances were considered to make such a change desirable and safe.

 

 As far as signals are concerned it should be noted that for many years the red targets on the gates visible to the Driver of an approaching train were regarded as equivalent to a stop signal at danger and thus at many crossings where there was only a Gatekeeper (and where signals were not needed for any other purpose) there was no need to provide any sort of what would normally be regarded as a protecting stop signal.  I'm not sure if that is still the case but it was definitely so well into the dieselised era.  However worked distant signals were required thus the overwhelming majority of worked distant signals on GWR single lines were actually there solely to protect level crossings (which usually had no stop signals) rather than for any other reason.

[GWR_Modeller]

Ok thanks. I reread a couple of things.  GWR Rule 99 ie gates normally left closed across the public road was to apparently to comply with the BoT and it was from 1933 (not mid 20s as i wrote above)  that exemptions on application were allowed due to a new Road and Rail Traffic Act.  So it is more correct (and also of course convenient) in my period at least to model the gates across the road.  I had been planning to automate the level crossing to move the gates when the train passed and they would have been inaccurately open most of the time to road traffic. 

On a busy road the signalman would have had to work hard and open and close the gates more often for road traffic than trains.  Would a railway compnay have changed its rules prior to the new law to reflect the practicality of a situation or would they have applied the law strictly? I am certain that in either operating situation a train would not be permitted to enter the section until the gates were closed to road traffic. 

[The Stationmaster]

On 28/04/2020 at 20:20, GWR_Modeller said:

Ok thanks. I reread a couple of things.  GWR Rule 99 ie gates normally left closed across the public road was to apparently to comply with the BoT and it was from 1933 (not mid 20s as i wrote above)  that exemptions on application were allowed due to a new Road and Rail Traffic Act.  So it is more correct (and also of course convenient) in my period at least to model the gates across the road.  I had been planning to automate the level crossing to move the gates when the train passed and they would have been inaccurately open most of the time to road traffic. 

On a busy road the signalman would have had to work hard and open and close the gates more often for road traffic than trains.  Would a railway compnay have changed its rules prior to the new law to reflect the practicality of a situation or would they have applied the law strictly? I am certain that in either operating situation a train would not be permitted to enter the section until the gates were closed to road traffic. 

1.  The only authority to permit alteration from 'gates normally closed across the road' was the Board of Trade/Ministry of Transport/whatever other name it has been known by over the years.  But that doesn't mean that gates might not be left open for a steady stream road traffic for a while if the railway traffic situation allows.  

 

2. As far as the Signalling Regulations are concerned a level crossing with gates open for road traffic does not constitute an obstruction in the Clearing. point.  Accordingly in Absolute Block and most of the Regulations for signalling on single lines a train may be accepted under full 'Line Clear' towards a level crossing with its gates across the railway.  The only difference really comes with a controlled crossing in a colour light signalled area working track Circuit Block where the level crossing controls won't allow a protecting signal to be cleared if it is in the section protected by that signal.   But of course that is a direct equivalent of semaphore signalling where a signal protecting a level crossing cannot be cleared unless the crossing gates are closed across the road.

[GWR_Modeller]

Thanks that is illuminating.

 

So red or black, any ideas?

[57xx]

On 28/04/2020 at 17:27, The Stationmaster said:

The Railway Clauses Act of 1845 legislated a requirement that at any level crossing of a public road over the gates should be normally closed to road traffic in such a manner that completely fenced the railway, unless the Board of Trade required otherwise.    And that remains the case today except for 'Board of Trade' now read 'Dept for Transport'.  Effectively it that means is that level crossings on public roads should have teh gates closed across the road exceot where the relevant Level Crossing Order states otherwise - which of course will inevitably be the case for most of the modern types of level crossing.            

 

So as far as gates are concerned - normally closed across the road but from 1845 the Board of Trade (and its successors) could rule otherwise in the case of any particular crossings where circumstances were considered to make such a change desirable and safe.

 

 As far as signals are concerned it should be noted that for many years the red targets on the gates visible to the Driver of an approaching train were regarded as equivalent to a stop signal at danger and thus at many crossings where there was only a Gatekeeper (and where signals were not needed for any other purpose) there was no need to provide any sort of what would normally be regarded as a protecting stop signal.  I'm not sure if that is still the case but it was definitely so well into the dieselised era.  However worked distant signals were required thus the overwhelming majority of worked distant signals on GWR single lines were actually there solely to protect level crossings (which usually had no stop signals) rather than for any other reason.

 

21 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

1.  The only authority to permit alteration from 'gates normally closed across the road' was the Board of Trade/Ministry of Transport/whatever other name it has been known by over the years.  But that doesn't mean that gates might not be left open for a steady stream road traffic for a while if the railway traffic situation allows.  

 

2. As far as the Signalling Regulations are concerned a level crossing with gates open for road traffic does not constitute an obstruction in the Clearing. point.  Accordingly in Absolute Block and most of the Regulations for signalling on single lines a train may be accepted under full 'Line Clear' towards a level crossing with its gates across the railway.  The only difference really comes with a controlled crossing in a colour light signalled area working track Circuit Block where the level crossing controls won't allow a protecting signal to be cleared if it is in the section protected by that signal.   But of course that is a direct equivalent of semaphore signalling where a signal protecting a level crossing cannot be cleared unless the crossing gates are closed across the road.

 

[GWR_Modeller]

57xx, sorry I dont understand what your reply means?

[Compound2632]

19 hours ago, GWR_Modeller said:

So red or black, any ideas?

 

The OP asks about 1930s but having just pre-lockdown installed crossing gates on our 1950s BR(W) club layout I'd really like to know if I'm going to need to repaint them. They're red at present.

[kandc_au]

When we were in the UK in 2011 we came across a level crossing where the gates were kept closed to road traffic unless someone wanted to cross....like ourselves.
Cannot remember where it was but I did have visions of photographing the original gate crossing keepers house/building until we got there and found it completely overgrown in greenery that unless you knew it was there you would miss it.
It was a double mainline to somewhere and the area was very horsey!

 

Khris

[The Stationmaster]

23 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The OP asks about 1930s but having just pre-lockdown installed crossing gates on our 1950s BR(W) club layout I'd really like to know if I'm going to need to repaint them. They're red at present.

As far as I know there was no requirement to paint the amp cases any particular colour at any time.  What mattered was the colour shown by the lamp.  Similarly I can't see a red lamp case delivering much of a visual signal in daylight when it's mounted above a fairly large red circular targetl carried on the gates.

 

The 1920s version of 'the Requirements' only says - in addition to the red target on the gates - a red light at night there is no stipulation regarding the colour of the lamp case..

Edited May 2, 2020 by The Stationmaster

[GWR_Modeller]

Hi, Painting Instructions for signal boxes 1907 includes colours for level crossing lamps black.  Found it in an appendix of GWR Signalling Practice GWSG D Smith.  Also found two colour photos dated early 1960s in Runpast and Ian Allan books of ex GWR branchlines with black lsmps on crossing gates.  Some photos on internet show red but I think generally later and more modern setting.  So my provisional conclusion is GWR used black crossing gate lamps ie same as signal lamps (thats me sorted for 1930s period) but later on they might get painted red or replaced or not.  Oh and the red target in both those photos facing only the rail not the road.  Another photo had target facing road not rail.  Dont know logic of that and will have to reread posts above to try and figure out.

[Compound2632]

Thanks! One day I'll be able to get back to the club layout and repaint the lamp cases black!