Unknown mineral railway

[carlwebus]

Hi People

 

Does anyone know or recognise the location of the attached photograph?

 

It is obviously a mineral railway - and probably narrow guage.

 

I have included a copy of the rear of the pic on  which is written faintly something like "Nr. Mawch" but it might be "Illawch" or something entirely  different.  I have searched the options and come up with nothing.

 

I am assuming Wales?

 

But I guess it might be European?

 

I know some Welsh mines/ quarries used Koppel locomotives.

 

I have another pic  which shows two of these locos apparently in the middle of nowhere!

[Quarryscapes]

Penlee Quarry Railway, Cornwall gets my vote

Edited April 28, 2020 by Quarryscapes

[MarkSG]

8 minutes ago, Quarryscapes said:

Penlee Quarry Railway, Cornwall gets my vote

 

I agree, compare the photos on these pages:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penlee_Quarry_railway

 

https://www.penleehouse.org.uk/collections/item/PEZPH:1999.76

 

 

[Nearholmer]

I don't agree.

 

The train in the photo is carrying what looks like clay, rather than the hard stone of Penlee.

 

Added to which, the loco in the photo is, I think, possibly bigger than the Penlee Freudenstein, and has ovoid cab front windows, rather than square with rounded corners.

 

It is very tricky to identify the builders of these standard German well tanks (the Penlee one was misidentified for years), but I will take a stab and say "possibly Krauss or Maffei or Krauss-Maffei". Its got Stephenson or Allan valve-gear, so probably built up to say WW1.

 

It could be any brick works  or construction site almost anywhere!

 

Bear in mind that while 'Nr' in English is an abbreviation for 'near', in German it means "nummer", equivalent to 'No.', so the scribble after it might be a number written out longhand, e.g. Acht, =8.

 

My instinct is that it is a German photo, but a view of the other picture might provide more clues.

 

The provenance of the photos might help, if you know it, even if the previous owner doesn't know where they were taken.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

Just for comparison, have a look at the photos here https://esbarchives.ie/2017/09/18/new-photos-from-the-irrs/ 

 

They are taken in Ireland, showing German locomotives and stock, on a German-operated construction railway.

 

The smaller locomotives in these pictures, i.e. the ones that look like the photo given by the OP in this thread, are I am fairly certain from the batch of ten 600mm gauge 50hp machines supplied for the job by Linke-Hoffman-Busch (see article herein https://ngrslibrary.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/tng75-spring-1977.pdf ).

 

I'm not suggesting that is where this photo comes from, merely pointing out how blooming difficult to pin these things down .......... without knowing better, one would assume that these were taken in Germany.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Nearholmer

[carlwebus]

Hi guys

I can see why you might think penlee. Looks like same LOCO and same v skips. Pretty certain it ain't penlee.

I bought a job lot of photos at auction. All sorts of stuff there. Leek and manifold, irish, prewar, austrian, Swiss trams!

The info on some that I can read is all in English

 

I will upload the other pic as soon as I get a chance.

[bécasse]

I am inclined to read the description as "Nr Munich", the nearest large German city to Austria, so not perhaps a bad fit with some of the rest of the collection (and also in English).

[JeremyC]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

It is very tricky to identify the builders of these standard German well tanks (the Penlee one was misidentified for years), but I will take a stab and say "possibly Krauss or Maffei or Krauss-Maffei". Its got Heussinger (=Stephenson) valvegear, so probably built up to say WW1.

 

 

Just a minor point, it doesn't have Heusinger valve gear as Heusinger is identical to Walschaerts not Stephensons.

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by JeremyC

[Nearholmer]

You are perfectly right ........... I wrote that because I was confusing myself between the "before and after" of the change of valvegear type, the later engines had Heusinger. I will correct it.

 

I'll also add that what it has is maybe Allan straight-link, because that was popular with German loco builders, and is hard to tell from Stephenson in a picture like that.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Metropolitan H]

Jeremy has beaten me to the correction regarding Heussinger valegear.

 

I will go further and state that the loco in the initial picture is not fitted with any of Heussinger, Walschaerts or Stephensons valvegears. I actually has what in Britain is known as Allen Straight link valvegear - which doesn't require a curved expansion link, but does have two (2) long drop links from the weigh-shaft, one raising and lowering the outer end of the radius rod and the other imparting an opposite lowering and raising of the straight expansion link. So very similar to Stephensons gear, but easier and cheaper to make and maintain.

 

Regards

Chris H

[Nearholmer]

Beat you to it Chris ...... I realised as I was correcting the Heusinger bit that it might well be Allan.

 

K

[Philou]

Before I read all of the comments, I would have said brickworks. There was until recently an extensive system on the north side of Southend - one of the road schemes in Essex had to provide an expensive tunnel/overbridge for such a light railway. Within a year of the road being built, the brickworks closed down!

 

I think it was Cherry Orchard Way, but I can't recall the name of the brickworks.

 

One of the comments above being 'in the middle of nowhere' would sum it up. Even though no more than 1/2mile from habitation or Southend Airport, it is so very flat, you would be forgiven for thinking you were indeed in the middle of nowhere.

 

One thing I did learn about the brick clay is that it's not all dug out in one go. It's dug away on a round-robin doing one area and only a few feet at a time and it's seasonal. However, over a period of time, the land is lowered all around and as the horizon rises relative to the brickfields so you see less and less of your surroundings, that may make it appear that you are in the middle of nowhere.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

Edit: I was right. Cherry Orchard Way. Using the link, the light railway bridge should be in the middle of the photo with the bed of the railway doing  an 'N' under it. Not that it identifies your photo but hey ho .....

Link: https://www.google.fr/maps/@51.5769913,0.680056,169m/data=!3m1!1e3

Edited April 28, 2020 by Philou
See above

[The Johnster]

Can we enter it in the 'when the real thing looks like a model' thread?

[Nearholmer]

Cherry Orchard Lane and the nearby Star Lane were really good late-surviving brickworks railways.

 

Good basic coverage here http://www.ingr.co.uk/rlys_eng.html

 

I liked Cherry Orchard best of the two, because it was more picturesque, with the level crossing and the run down to the brick field behind the hedge.

[carlwebus]

Hi Guys

 

Fascinating  debate!

 

Unfortunately, looking more closely at two other pics that came in the same batch - I don't think they will help.  What at  first glance I thought were two of the same engines as the  first one but parked up, actually look quite different on closer exam.

 

I attach them nevertheless 'cos they may help or at least be of interest.   The pic of the two locos marked 1 and 7 shows them beside a  river or canal in a  flat landscape like the first pic.

 

The picture of the single engine with what looks like a spark arrester is marked on the back "Zell am See"   which is near Saltzburg, Austria.  This is  hilly landscape.

 

I  agree with becasse - in the light of the above I think its probably "Nr. Munich". Whoever took the pics had terrible handwriting!

[Nearholmer]

Well, the bottom photo is the simplest, because it is on the Zillertalbahn, a public railway, so well documented, and I think the loco is a U Class 0-6-2T. [Er, Wrong! See below.]

 

The photo of the two locos numbered 1 and 7 is another "guess the location" job. As you say, they are definitely not the same as the loco in the first picture that you showed, and I'd wager that they are of a larger gauge; my gut says 900mm or 1000mm gauge, but they might even be standard gauge.

 

Again, my instinct is that this photo was taken in Germany, but locos of this kind were common all over the place, so it could be almost anywhere in Europe. A few of these larger size German 0-4-0WT were imported to Britain and Ireland, but this pair don't ring a bell with me. There is a picture of one in Britain in this short article https://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/25/narrow_gauge_wagons_10.htm This one was used for reservoir construction work in Wales, then went to a gypsum-carrying tramway in Staffordshire, and from there to the gravel workings at Walney Island.

 

Somebody had made interesting railway excursions!

Edited April 29, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Joseph_Pestell]

Any chance of an enlarged version of the first photo? The vegetation looks southern European to me as does the barn (or house?) in the background.

[HonestTom]

Might it be one of the occupation railways built on the Channel Islands during the Second World War?

[Metropolitan H]

Duplicated post deleted.

 

Chris H

Edited April 29, 2020 by Metropolitan H

[Metropolitan H]

Not sure of the location of locos 1& 7, but it looks as if they are by the banks of a navigable waterway in relatively low lying ground - but with distant hill range. Could be Netherlands or Belgium or Germany - but I have no real idea.

 

Regarding the Austrian "U" class 0-6-2T, that is correct, but it is not on the Zillertalbahn, with those numer plates which I think read "U 25" - or similar ??

 

As the picture ia annotated "Zell am See" I am almost sure the picture was taken at the eastern end of the Pinzgauer Lokalbahn which runs west from "Zell am See" to Krimml, which is 40 km by road over a pass to Zell am Ziller. The Pinzgauer Lokalbahn is now a very modern diesel powered railway - which does run steam at times, but not with "U" class locos, but like this:

 

 

Kevin is right to associate the Zillertal Bahn with "U" class locomotives as they still have at least two in working order - but one is currently on hire to the Welshpool and Llanfair Railway since last August (but now sadly locked away safely).

 

 

Hope this helps.

 

Regards

Chris H

[EddieB]

If the identification of the U class as U.25 is correct (and it appears as such to my eyes), that would make it StEG 2998 of 1902, which was allocated to the Bregenzerwalbahn - where I understand it remains, operating as a museum railway.  There is a monograph in the Transpress “Fahrzeugportrai” series (Reihe U, by Roland Beier), which gives a history and has a works photo of this locomotive.

[Metropolitan H]

I'm not absolutely certain that the loco is U25 - but that it is similar "U2x". But I'm almost certain the "Zell am See" annotation is correct for the location.

 

My biggest problem is that my copy of "Schmalspurig durch Osterreich" is currently out on loan - and likely to remain so for the foreseeable future - so I can't check the detail.

 

Regards

Chris H

[carlwebus]

Sorry but cannot do an enlarged version.  All these pics are small and only really blow up to the size on screen. Any bigger and  the limited clarity they have is lost.

 

I'm going to  research Pinzgauer Lokalbahn and Bregenzeralbahn re the U/ U25.

 

There are, in the words of the Moody Blues "more questions than answers"!

[Nearholmer]

2 hours ago, HonestTom said:

Might it be one of the occupation railways built on the Channel Islands during the Second World War?

 

I suppose it might be, but then it seems more probable that it is somewhere else altogether. These locos were churned-out in the thousands, by multiple makers, all looking quite similar.

 

Photos of the German occupation railways in the CI are understandably rare, but it is known that they used both commandeered French material and their own material, both new and secondhand, and used at least two gauges. I'm struggling to remember, but I think 750mm and 1000mm (I've given away the book that includes the detail).

 

Here is a link to one CI photo that I have found on-line and again it highlights that without context it could have been taken almost anywhere  https://www.deanephotos.com/photo_13715478.html

Edited April 29, 2020 by Nearholmer

[EddieB]

 

1 hour ago, Metropolitan H said:

I'm not absolutely certain that the loco is U25 - but that it is similar "U2x". But I'm almost certain the "Zell am See" annotation is correct for the location.

 

My biggest problem is that my copy of "Schmalspurig durch Osterreich" is currently out on loan - and likely to remain so for the foreseeable future - so I can't check the detail.

 

Regards

Chris H

Yes, the source quoted earlier notes that U.25 (absorbed by the Reichsbahn as 99 7814) was allocated to the Pinzgau region during WW2, where it remained and was used "with short interruptions" until 1962.   Which may help to date the photograph.

 

Whether it went there directly, or otherwise, "Schmalspurig durch Österreich" lists it at Garsten (Steyrtalbahn) at the beginning of 1975.

Edited April 29, 2020 by EddieB