"Ortur" Diode Laser Cutters? replacement for Silhouette machine?

[justin1985]

Hi all,

 

I've noticed quite a few YouTube videos recently using a range of diode based Chinese laser cutters branded as "Ortur", and very similar clones. They seem to be (optimistically) rated by input wattages of 7w, 15w, or 20w, and most have a neat (but presumably not so robust) format with an arm projecting into space, rather than a rigid rectangular frame. This video seems particularly interesting in terms of reviewing one for cutting capability, whereas most seem to just focus on engraving:

 

 

It doesn't seem surprising that a basic diode laser can't cut MDF or clear acrylic, which a CO2 laser could. However, the fact it can cut card, foamboard, foam, thin ply, and black acrylic does give me some interesting thoughts about one of these making a more flexible replacement for the kind of jobs I'd currently use a Silhouette cutter for - i.e. buildings, or perhaps things like coaches or wagons built up from overlays. It might not be able to cut plasticard, but I find the Silhouette quite limited when it comes to cutting out very intricate shapes in even 0.5mm plasticard. 

 

Has anyone tried one of these, or anything similar? 

 

Justin

[Giles]

The principle of a diode is a good one. I have an Emblazer 4W, and my regular materials are 2mm MDF, 1mm ply and black acrylic sheet (Trotec, mostly 0.8mm). It performs very well,band has put very many hoursvservice in.

However, it is also reasonably rigid, it is accurate, and it has very good software that enables me to actually use it!

 

I dont know this particular machine, but for it to be useful, it should have the above listed qualities, otherwise it will fail to live up to its promise..

 

You can't cut normal plastikard with a laser, as it gives off toxic gases when heated. Trotec/Rowmark is a decent alternative though. Trotec have changed their formula, and it now doesn't cut cleanly. I cannot recommend. 

Best

Giles

Edited September 27, 2021 by Giles

[JimFin]

Being interested, I read up on the machine Justin pointed out but was disappointed in the 150mm X 160mm cutting area, just so small as to limit the scale of projects. I did see however that there is a Mk2 of the machine with a full rigid frame and work area of 400mm X 430mm which is more sensible - anyone any experience of this or similar? 

 

[justin1985]

6 hours ago, JimFin said:

Being interested, I read up on the machine Justin pointed out but was disappointed in the 150mm X 160mm cutting area, just so small as to limit the scale of projects. I did see however that there is a Mk2 of the machine with a full rigid frame and work area of 400mm X 430mm which is more sensible - anyone any experience of this or similar? 

 

 

I've just been looking at those too. There don't seem to be many reviews or anything of those yet - at least not in English (several on YouTube in French ...) although one I did see mentioned the laser module looking "not quite the same" - hopefully in a good way! 

 

8 hours ago, Giles said:

The principle of a diode is a good one. I have an Emblazer 4W, and my regular materials are 2mm MDF, 1mm ply and black acrylic sheet (Trotec, mostly 0.8mm). It performs very well,band has put very many hoursvservice in.

 

It is interesting that the Emblazer's laser is 4W - presumably directly equivalent to the "15w" laser on these units (supposedly actually 4.4w light output). I'm sure the Emblazer has a much better manufactured unit, and better optics. But if they're at least comparable in output and cutting capacity, that is encouraging! 

 

I wonder whether the "20w" version of the Ortur Master 2 is worth the difference? £220 versus £160 on GearBest. 

[justin1985]

Well, I went for it and got the 15w (4.5w) version of the smaller original "Master" machine. It cost £150 including delivery from Gearbest. I followed some advice NOT to use the DHL shipping option, and it arrived within just about 10 days via "SprintPack" - strangely using a Royal Mail tracking number throughout. No customs charge was applied - perhaps a lighter touch during the pandemic?

 

After some initial confusion from speed settings being quoted in mm/minute but the LightBurn software defaulting to input in mm/second (!) I've got some pretty good results on various types of card and thin ply.

 

 

160gsm card cuts nice and cleanly with a relatively slow speed. As expected with a diode laser, the black cuts in one pass, whereas white requires about 3 (because much of the light is reflected).

 

I've also had good results cutting greyboard (back of notepad) and oiled manilla (which I'd seen recommended in another laser cutting thread). They do all need several passes at low speeds though - upto 7 or 8 passes.

 

Clearly there is no getting away from the fact it is a low powered machine. I don't know how much difference the 20w version would be - I doubt much. However when I was talking to Ortur customer service (very helpful - they helped me realise I was mistaking mm/min and mm/sec speeds!) they mentioned they are planning to "release a LU2-1 laser module in July, which it's specialized in paper cut". This sounds promising - I don't know if it will just be more powerful, or perhaps a different wavelength? Hopefully it will work as an upgrade for the existing machines.

 

At the end of the day, I had in mind to buy this machine as a replacement for the Silhouette cutter without all the issues of trying to prise card off the carrier without ripping, and with sharper corners to small shapes. It definitely seems to fill that bill!

 

The cutting area of this original "Master" model is definitely limiting too - around 150*160mm, but is generally OK for me working in 2mm scale. The physically larger Master 2 might be much more useful for modellers working in 4mm or above.

 

I need to carry on experimenting with different materials, and I need to tackle combining engraving (brick courses and maybe score lines) on the same job as cutting. This seems simple with the LightBurn software - just a matter of getting the right combination of speed/power/passes values.

 

J

[justin1985]

I'll probably post a separate thread once I get a bit further with some building projects, but just to share the fact I've been getting some very good results with the Ortur laser now I've had time to experiment with the settings in Lightburn.

 

These signal box windows (green painted ones) are N scale - the glazing bars are designed to be 0.3mm wide! Brassmasters N gauge etched windows are next to it for comparison.

 

 

There seems to be a fundamental limitation that cuts in one direction will always be finer than in the other. On these cheaper diode lasers the light focuses to a small bar shape, rather than a perfect round point. So cutting in the X direction will always cut a slightly wider line than in the Y. Hence the horizontal glazing bars are thicker than the vertical ones!

 

Things I had to work out through experimentation:

 

Focal distance needed to be quite a bit closer than quoted in instructions - about 28mm rather than 50mm.

 

This laser basically needs power at 100% the whole time when cutting (rather than engraving).

 

Speed and number of passes is a fine balance. The machine doesn't seem accurate enough to rely on registration being 100% between multiple passes, especially on a larger project. So I've been going for quite slow cuts that work in single passes, as much as possible. Normal 160gsm card (used for these windows) cuts nicely at 300mm/min.

 

LightBurn is WAY better than LaserGRBL! But it's settings need a lot of experimentation for different machines.

 

Counterintuitively, it seemed like turning OFF a lot of its optimization settings, like "minimise direction change" and "minimise travel distance" actually helped avoid distortions around the tiny window bars.

 

 

Overall, I'm increasingly pleased with it - definitely an improvement on the Silhouette!

 

Justin

[Ralphrob48]

Hi Justin,

 

Reading your experiences with this low cost laser cutter I thought you might be interested in reading my experiences of using a laser cutter, it might save you a bit of time. I too started with a Silhouette and soon kicked that into touch.

 

I now have a Darkly Labs Emblaser which is a low powered laser cutter and it took me a while to find the right methods that work for me. I eventually settled on using card as the prime medium for what I needed but I do use ply too from time to time. One thing you mention is white card, it took me quite some time to work out that this colour isn't really suitable as it sometimes cuts cleanly but more often than not it doesn't. It really depends upon how bright the white is, this seems to be the limiting factor. You think you are doing yourself a favour buying a good quality white card and then spend a long time going round in circles wondering why it doesn't cut cleanly.

 

The materials I regularly use now are thin card, 0.2mm thick, this is standard office card. Don't use white, go for a card with a buff or yellowish tint, light green works but avoid blue. Grey is the colour I have standardised on. I also buy 0.5mm card which I get from Hobby craft among other places. I always buy grey card in this thickness. For thicker card I use 1.5mm mounting board as used by picture framers. This is readily available in Hobbycraft, The Range, B&M etc. It is relatively cheap, £3 or so for an A1 sheet and cuts easily. In the past I have used the mounting board which is black one side and white the other and I have used the white side but the last batch I got was brighter than the previous batch which meant that the laser wouldn't cut the white side which meant I couldn't use it. I used to buy 20 A1 sheets at a time from Rapid Online but because of the change in brightness these days I get it from Hobbycraft who sell Daler Rowney card (the best in my experience) and I always get a grey colour or a light straw colour, if I can use the white side I do otherwise I can use the coloured side. 

 

For really thick material I use poplar ply. This is a lot softer than birch ply but has the same stiffness. The ply has to go through with 2 passes but all the other materials cut cleanly with one pass. I use laminations of the material to build up to the thickness I need.

 

I have been using Lightburn for a long time now, it is a great piece of software and in your drawing package you need to select colours as the vehicle for changing the cutting properties in Lightburn. I never use the drawing features in Lightburn preferring to use Coreldraw which I have used for over 10 years so it is second nature to me. 

 

Having a laser cutter changes the way you make things totally. The pictures below show the sort of things I have made using ply and card as mentioned above, find something that works for you and your machine and enjoy your modelling.

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Ralphrob48
Edited to fix a couple of typos.

[justin1985]

Great work there Ralph! Are those buildings in 4mm scale? 

 

Reading through the Emblazer thread (only got as far as about 2018!) has been a real inspiration and lots of the things that you guys have picked up on seem very relevant. As far as I can tell, the Ortur machine and the Emblazer 1 have essentially the same guts - just a big difference in build quality and price!

 

One of the things I'm trying to decide is whether to go down the route of engraving bricks in 2mm scale, or whether to just use brickpaper. The kerf width on this laser is a bit on the thick side for 2mm bricks!

 

One project I do have in mind is a stone viaduct though, and I think engraving that would definitely be a goer. I'm wondering whether a raster stone texture might give a more pleasing result than overly regular CAD drawn blocks.

 

18 hours ago, Ralphrob48 said:

The materials I regularly use now are thin card, 0.2mm thick, this is standard office card. Don't use white, go for a card with a buff or yellowish tint, light green works but avoid blue. Grey is the colour I have standardised on. I also buy 0.5mm card which I get from Hobby craft among other places. I always buy grey card in this thickness. For thicker card I use 1.5mm mounting board as used by picture framers. This is readily available in Hobbycraft, The Range, B&M etc. It is relatively cheap, £3 or so for an A1 sheet and cuts easily. In the past I have used the mounting board which is black one side and white the other and I have used the white side but the last batch I got was brighter than the previous batch which meant that the laser wouldn't cut the white side which meant I couldn't use it. I used to buy 20 A1 sheets at a time from Rapid Online but because of the change in brightness these days I get it from Hobbycraft who sell Daler Rowney card (the best in my experience) and I always get a grey colour or a light straw colour, if I can use the white side I do otherwise I can use the coloured side. 

 

For really thick material I use poplar ply. This is a lot softer than birch ply but has the same stiffness. The ply has to go through with 2 passes but all the other materials cut cleanly with one pass. I use laminations of the material to build up to the thickness I need.

 

This is really helpful! I'd been aware that lighter colours = bad, darker colours = good, but I already had a large stock of white 160gsm and 200gsm in the house. The only other card I have in is 160gsm in black (which actually doesn't cut as easily as I had expected - apparently because it is slightly textured, according to Ortur tech support, when I queried the cutting speed), or light blue, which I haven't tried yet. Good to know blue isn't a good bet - thinking about it, I guess blue reflect the wavelength of the laser because it is similar? I'll try getting hold of some mid grey and buff!

 

Where do you get the poplar ply? I only recall seeing birch, even at the 4D Modelshop.

 

Cheers

 

Justin

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

A daft suggestion maybe, but couldn't you give the white card a waft with spray paint of an appropriate colour?

 

Mike.

[Ralphrob48]

Those photos are of 4mm models. The bottom one is a mockup of part of the big mill I made using the laser. There are around 100 separate card parts on that sample, the mill itself has a few thousand all made possible by the laser. I never post here as you might have realised but if you are interested take a look at the Scalefour forum and search for Alpha Mill.

 

Engraving bricks requires a bit of trial and error. You need to get your cut settings right, I always engrave horizontals first and then the verticals, they are different colours on the drawing. Then pick a low intensity with a reasonably high speed and vary the 2 settings until you get the depth and quality you are looking for. In my view model brickwork is usually far too deep and you are only looking for a suggestion of mortar, in the real thing mortar is virtually flush with the brickwork. Plastic sheet brickwork is just wrong but then I am a P4 modeller. The kerf on the Emblaser is about 0.2mm and you can't get a wider cut than that unless you use 2 or more line widths. You can get the suggestion of wider lines by deepening your cut but you will soon find what works for you.

 

Taking photos of stonework and converting that into a bitmap which can then be engraved can be done. We have successfully engraved large sections of stonework and setts and by using resin casting you can use both laser engraving and resin casting to make viaducts, bridges etc.  This picture is from one of my tests showing a sample which has been painted using  a Vallejo grey primer and MIG washes to get the colour. Also the settings I used to achieve that result are noted. We actually took some photos of stones in the wall outside our clubrooms and by using those photos built up a montage which could be stitched together to represent a bigger size wall. You can get some good pictures of stonework and brickwork on Shutterstock. Screen grabbing works quite well in picking up a few stones which can then be put into a bigger picture.

 

Poplar ply is available from SLEC https://www.slecuk.com/poplar-ply/30mm-18quot-poplar-ply-bbb and I always use 1/8th, the other thicknesses are too much work in the laser. If you want thicker, double up., that's what I do with everything from the laser. If I can't cut it with a Stanley knife easily it won't cut easily with the laser so I don't use it that's why I never use MDF, it is a very hard material, poplar ply is much easier. I have never tried Rowmark plastic sheet, the cost for me would have been astronomical when you work out the cost per small sheet.

 

Hope this helps you on your journey.

 

Ralph

[monkeysarefun]

10 hours ago, Ralphrob48 said:

In my view model brickwork is usually far too deep and you are only looking for a suggestion of mortar, in the real thing mortar is virtually flush with the brickwork.

 

I agree with this however I like the depth because I use fine powder brushed into the engraved lines to create the mortar so the added depth is a positive for me.

 

Re laser materials - I had great success with something called Taskboard.

 

https://www.taskboard.com/

 

FRom memory its available in sheets around the imperial equivalent of about 800mm by 400 or something. I bought a 100mm   thick stack of it from a place in the states because shipping was about the same outrageous  expensive amount  no matter how much I bought (around 140.00US from memory!) It took to the  laser really well and as an aside you could even wet it, bend it to any shape and it would dry perfectly in that shape . It was available in several non-metric thicknesses, eg 1/16th wehatever that is.

 

I got one building done with it before my great rumpus room flood of June 2016 turned the whole stack of it to  mouldy mush. ( it can only take so much wetting, apparently!)

 

• 

 

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by monkeysarefun

[justin1985]

10 hours ago, Ralphrob48 said:

Taking photos of stonework and converting that into a bitmap which can then be engraved can be done. We have successfully engraved large sections of stonework and setts and by using resin casting you can use both laser engraving and resin casting to make viaducts, bridges etc.  This picture is from one of my tests showing a sample which has been painted using  a Vallejo grey primer and MIG washes to get the colour. Also the settings I used to achieve that result are noted. We actually took some photos of stones in the wall outside our clubrooms and by using those photos built up a montage which could be stitched together to represent a bigger size wall. You can get some good pictures of stonework and brickwork on Shutterstock. Screen grabbing works quite well in picking up a few stones which can then be put into a bigger picture.

 

 

Inspirational work - looks really great. I'm sure I read someone saying that engraving as a raster makes for a more "organic" looking result, even if the design is just straight lines. I can't imagine it would make much difference in my scale though - nonetheless on the list of things to try out!

 

11 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

Re laser materials - I had great success with something called Taskboard.

 

https://www.taskboard.com/

 

I bought a heap of it from a place in the states because shipping was so expensive (around 140.00US from memory!) It took to the  laser really well and as an aside you could even wet it, bend it to any shape and it would dry perfectly in that shape . It was available in several non-metric thicknesses. I got one building done with it before my great rumpus room flood of June 2016 turned the whole stack of it to  mouldy mush. ( it can only take so much wetting, apparently!)

 

• 

 

I'm pretty sure this is basically the same as "Finnboard" ?  https://modelshop.co.uk/Shop/Item/Finnboard/ITM6531

 

Great agricultural hall building there - I imagine using the powders for the mortar kind of fills the lines a bit doesn't it?

 

Working in 2mm scale, the main attraction of engraving the bricks, over brick paper, is more the fact you can include arches and headers etc seamlessly, I think.

 

Cheers

 

Justin

[NinOz]

Recently purchased an Ortur laser 2 at "20W" with a view to cutting card and paper for building kits.

Not happy with the results so far.  The problem is the shape of the laser beam.  It is a bar shape with an aspect ratio of about 10:1 at focus so produces a fine cut in one direction and a broad burn in the other.  Well it is sold as a engraving machine but I was encouraged by reported cutting capabilities.

Unfortunately trying to find a solution to the problem doesn't seem to be attainable.  Tried the suggested varying of the focal distance and defocusing the laser slightly, neither improve things.  To add to the confusion many people don't mention which laser version they are using.

I did read that the required laser power is achieved by stacking diodes so I wonder if a lower power laser source with a smaller number of diodes would produce a less bar shaped focal spot.  Problem is, that will cost a bit of money to explore.

[Chris Chewter]

I took delivery of an Ortur 20w cutter a few weeks back.  So far things look promising.

 

 

The charring to the chimney was caused by getting the power and speed settings wrong (I think). Slow and steady seems to win the race, and at the moment, and I've only had two weeks cutting experience.

 

The one on the left is 4mm and the one on the right is 2mm which will be heading to one of the guys in the local model railway club. 

 

At the moment, the 4mm hut is sat on the workbench after receiving a spray of matt black. I'll post another photo of the hut once its been painted up.

[Chris Chewter]

A promised, here’s the hut painted up.

 

 

Still trying to get the finish around the chimney correct, but I think that’s more down to design and my knowledge (or lack of).

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Chris Chewter

[DGO]

The latest "40W" LED Lasers actually probably closer to 10 to 15 W of real power show promise, using a prism to combine two lasers into a fixed focus, single spot which is pretty much square making cuts more accurate, however you really want an air assist to blow the soot out of the cuts giving much improved cutting ability, Neje an Ortur rival have a Master 2S Max version with a cutting area of 810 x 460mm but the 40W version is $210 more than the 30W, Neje can also supply the bits required to link your airbrush compressor to give you air assist for just $16 extra which is not much more than doing a DIY job. I'd recommend some form of air assist on any laser, not only will it give you improved cutting but it carries off the soot generated and thus keeps the lens cleaner. 

 

People would be well advised to box in the laser and extract the fumes to outside, whilst most materials are safe some plywoods, mdf and plastics will give off harmful vapour when laser cut and extracting the fumes not only stops the room smelling like you have set it on fire but may if you do a lot of cutting prolong your life.

 

To get accurate interlocking cuts you need a set of accurate verniers, then simply cut a 2cm square out of your chosen material (repeat for all materials) and measure the hole size and the cutout size, you can then adjust the drawings accordingly to get a nice snug fit, make sure the square is set so one side matches the x axis of the machine and the other the y axis and make a note of which way round they are because beams are rectangular and so will be fractionally different you may also need to calibrate the software to ensure that you are actually getting a square not a rectangle the following assumes you have calibrated the machine so that 1mm of movement on x and 1mm of movement on y are identical

 

Lets say that your 20mm square hole measures 20.1 x 20.2 and your 20mm cutout measures 19.9 x 19.8 (along matching axis) then we can assume that the beam is 0.2mm wide and 0.4mm high (it will be less than this but I'm simplifying) so now if you want to get a square that is really tight in the hole and you want them both at exactly 20mm the hole must be redrawn to be 19.9 x 19.8 and the cutout must be 20.1 x 20.2 , after a brief sanding to remove the charcoal on the edges they should just fit one into the other with zero clearance, And this is how you get exact interlocking parts (note in reality you should either leave a hairline width between the two or carry a big mallet to force them together but hopefully that gives people a starting point)

 

David