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rodent279

Class 45 roof boiler water filler and bodyside steps-when did they get plated over?

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I can't help but think that the reputation of the Type 4 Sulzers has suffered over time because of later reliability issues.

In steam days cruising at 60mph was considered to be the gold standard and this these engines did day in day out on the Midland mainline out of St Pancreas. I vividly remember returning to Manchester in 1965 or so and the locomotive just hit a mile a minute for tens and tens  of miles to Derby. At the time I thought this was extraordinary but in truth they were doing it all the time which made it even more special.

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On 04/05/2020 at 16:51, PenrithBeacon said:

I can't help but think that the reputation of the Type 4 Sulzers has suffered over time because of later reliability issues.

In steam days cruising at 60mph was considered to be the gold standard and this these engines did day in day out on the Midland mainline out of St Pancreas. I vividly remember returning to Manchester in 1965 or so and the locomotive just hit a mile a minute for tens and tens  of miles to Derby. At the time I thought this was extraordinary but in truth they were doing it all the time which made it even more special.

Yes, steam loco's were slower to get started, but their ability to consistently maintain line speeds was in their favour.  I know a lot of older BR drivers who went onto the diesels were surprised at how the power handle was left wide open for mile upon mile.  That was a new experience to them.  Of course the diesels could really lay down the tractive effort at low speeds, but the tractive curve dropped away quite dramatically at mid range speeds.  The much larger steam loco's wheels would of course be an overwhelming advantage at that point. 

 

The diesels are often mention in rather disparaging terms relative to the steamers.  However these folk are often viewing the world through rose tinted sentimental spectacles.  The diesels saved the railway in this country, they worked day in, day out, and were often in appalling condition, clocking up astronomical mileages that no steamer ever could.  When BR ordered the class 45's, that single class of loco was brilliant for passenger/heavy freight use.  Upgrading the engine to a 47 output was a mistake, and they were all derated to the same HP as a 45.  The weak link for the 47 was the daft serck radiator system which required constant checking/topping up.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, CliveM said:

Yes, steam loco's were slower to get started, but their ability to consistently maintain line speeds was in their favour.  I know a lot of older BR drivers who went onto the diesels were surprised at how the power handle was left wide open for mile upon mile.  That was a new experience to them.  Of course the diesels could really lay down the tractive effort at low speeds, but the tractive curve dropped away quite dramatically at mid range speeds.  The much larger steam loco's wheels would of course be an overwhelming advantage at that point. 

 

The diesels are often mention in rather disparaging terms relative to the steamers.  However these folk are often viewing the world through rose tinted sentimental spectacles.  The diesels saved the railway in this country, they worked day in, day out, and were often in appalling condition, clocking up astronomical mileages that no steamer ever could.  When BR ordered the class 45's, that single class of loco was brilliant for passenger/heavy freight use.  Upgrading the engine to a 47 output was a mistake, and they were all derated to the same HP as a 45.  The weak link for the 47 was the daft serck radiator system which required constant checking/topping up.

hydrostatic :)......not serck....class 45s radiators were made by serck....as were class's  24, 25 26 27, 31, 33, 44, 46 56...58 the hydrostatic system was more of an issue on class 56s and 47s however, 33s and 46s didn't seem t have the same issue with leaks and hose failures. but the louvers on 47s were a bit of a nightmare if that is what you are referring to. however they did have a very practical function as class. 47s were devoid of settling tanks.

Edited by pheaton

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1 hour ago, CliveM said:

.  When BR ordered the class 45's, that single class of loco was brilliant for passenger/heavy freight use.  Upgrading the engine to a 47 output was a mistake, and they were all derated to the same HP as a 45.  The weak link for the 47 was the daft serck radiator system which required constant checking/topping up.

 

Hmmm - when the german engineers came over to see what we were doing with their hydraulic designs they saw the 16 wheelers - which were subsequently christened "Mein Gott"s, probably the polite version of what they actually said! Sorry @pheaton!

 

Fundamental weakness was the plate frame bogie which fractured. 45s and 46s had to go through a refurbishment programme early in their life - largely to deal with issues associated with ancillaries and cooling systems. And their power to weight ratio - 2000hp in 133 tons for the EE4s, 2500 in 138 tons for the Peaks  - was always going to mean they would be relegated once more fleet of foot second generation type 4s came along and line speeds increased.. And thats without comparing their power to weight ratio to their contemporary hydraulics!

 

512 Brush type 4s built - some of which are still in traffic  on the main line - speaks for the success of the design. They really have been the do anything go (virtually) anywhere locos of the diesel era, although a lack of sanders caused issues when trying to lift heavy MGR trains out of uneven colliery sidings. Class 40/45/46 were part of the evolutionary process to get there and gave sterling service but they soon looked like dinosaurs by comparison, which they were given their lineage went back to the Ivatt and Bulleid locos.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, pheaton said:

hydrostatic :)......not serck....class 45s radiators were made by serck....as were class's  24, 25 26 27, 31, 33, 44, 46 56...58 

 

Now then now then!  What about the hydraulics ? Hee hee I know it goes against the grain but Classes 22/35/42/43/52/53 also had Serck radiators. So there :D:D

 

Theres a very good piece back here on the Serck/Hydrostatic fins/air brakes in Brush 4s back here 

 

 

 

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Holy cow , Phil, that’s an old one I started, when young and innocent about 47s...

 

I seem to recall having hair and a job then...

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8 hours ago, rob D2 said:

Holy cow , Phil, that’s an old one I started, when young and innocent about 47s...

 

I seem to recall having hair and a job then...

 

Same here Rob! Just had a COVID cut.....

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Posted (edited)

posted twice goops

Edited by pheaton

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Sorry if its a stupid question folks, but if the boiler steps of some peaks were plated over in the late 60s, steam heating must have been in use long after that so if the water filler hatch was on the roof, how did they fill them up?

 

 

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On 03/05/2020 at 17:18, rodent279 said:

Awesome, thanks Neil, spot on what I was looking for! With the photo below, this proves that it lost it's headcode box chars in the April 77 works visit, and wore dominos at both ends, presumably until another works visit in late 77/early 78. By Mar 78 it had sealed beams.

Cheers, Neil.

45039 THE MANCHESTER REGIMENT Rotherham Masborough 9.6.77

 

 

A little late in the day and not very revealing as far as 45039 is concerned, but I've just found this photo I took in Bristol's Bedminster Park on 10/5/75 - you can probably guess why the Peak wasn't the main subject on this occasion........in fact if it had turned up 10 seconds earlier the air would have turned pretty much the same colour as the Peak!!

Wish it was a bit sharper but having walked all the way from Temple Meads to obtain this kind of view of the HST-P passing by I was in a bit of a panic when 45039 suddenly appeared from the other direction.........

 

1097315598_750510_P-HST45039BristolBedPk.jpg.f425db6a6cfa44820c03bfad94191729.jpg

 

 

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