Ross' N Gauge Workbench - "Magical Mystery Train Tour"

[RBTKraisee]

Still early days, but this is the first time I've gotten the whole RTS on the rails.   Wanted to share it with everyone.

 

Sharp eyed amongst you will notice the 3rd coach body on the 1st coach interior/underframe and visa-versa.   I moved the curtains on the 1st to the interior part instead of as part of the coach body, so I had to put the coach bodies this way around or I'd have two sets of curtains interfering with one another    But you'll still get the jist.

 

This shows the Dundas 7.2mm wheels on all bogies.   My N-Brass order just arrived (photo's later) with more 7.2mm wheels and a set of 6.2mm ones for me to test, but I'm happy with these.   The N brass order included brass bearings for the wheels, but I'm really not so sure I need them.   After a few minutes of manually rolling these to bed them in, they all seem to spin quite freely.

 

Great news is that this arrangement happily handles these 18 inch radius Peco Code 55 points and 21 inch Atlas C55 curves with no problems at all.   I still need to setup a 9 inch radius left-right switchback to make sure everything really does work as intended, but I'm happy so far.

 

Awaiting delivery of some grey and black resins for the printer, because I want to print the parts in something non-translucent.   When the lighting kit arrives, I only want light emitting from the windows after all!   I ultimately went with the yellow light DCC-controlled ESU lighting kit, sourced through Paul Foulds at CRSignals.com.   I chose these because they were available immediately, are from a manufacturer who are not likely to run out of stocks any time soon and they are designed so they can be cut down to fit inside even the very short Kitchen car (just 81mm internal length).   Together with their optional capacitors for flicker-free use and a set of 1.5mm pickup springs from DCC Concepts for getting the power from the wheels, this arrangement should see me good for lighting things up properly!

 

The Dapol couplers are still on their way, so some design changes are awaiting those, but I think its safe enough to say that I'm definitely closing-in on completion of this project soon!

 

Ross.

 

 

 

[RBTKraisee]

Got to put my hands up and admit a silly fact...

 

I currently don't have a single piece of powered track operating yet, and my very first N gauge loco's are still in transit coming from DCC Supplies!

 

Ain't that crazy, huh?

 

Ross.

[RBTKraisee]

My postings today seem to be a bit like buses...

 

Here are a few more detail pics of the Gresley RTS progress.

 

First are the three underframe/interiors without the coach bodies.   The Kitchen car has only one clear window, which looks into a single room.   So only that has been included as an interior:

 

Here is that Kitchen car, mainly to show the common bearings above the bogie, for attaching the restaurant cars either side:

 

Here is the Kitchen car with body, mounted to its two bogies and showing the common bearing where the Restaurant cars will attach:

 

Here is one of the common bearings shown with the coach body clearances as they appear on 18 inch radius track:

Ross.

Edited June 7, 2020 by RBTKraisee

[RBTKraisee]

And finally for today, as I mentioned above, my order from N Brass arrived!    Transit was only 11 days, which is a big improvement from a few weeks ago when deliveries from Blighty to Florida were taking 3 weeks or more.   C'mon my Hall and A4, c'mon...

 

Because postage is always a factor I decided to get a fair sized pack of different things from N Brass, all in one go.   This order included drivers & firemen for my steam loco's, a variety of coach connectors covering all eras, some close couplings to experiment with, 6.2mm and 7.2mm wheel-sets, some amazingly tiny handrail knobs, wheel pinpoint bearings and a back-to-back gauge.   Big smile on my face

 

 

When the package arrived I found a plastic box inside the envelope.   Initially I thought packaging it in a plastic box was a bit of overkill, but I quickly changed my mind:

 

 

Given the delicacy of some of these parts I actually think this is a truly brilliant choice by Nick Tilsston.

 

It's a great way to guarantee all the products arrive in perfect shape every time, and for the customer it makes for an excellent place to store everything until it gets used - and I have no doubt that when the box is empty of these parts, I'll find other uses for it!   So my hat is off to Nick for this choice!

 

Ross.

[Bucoops]

10 hours ago, RBTKraisee said:

 

Yes Phil, I did, thanks!

 

For those who don't know, Phil is Chairman of Railway Vehicle Preservations Ltd (RVP), based at the Rothley Carriage Works.   In response to another post on the forum he very kindly sent me the two videos below that show the Travelling Post Office (TPO) in action on the Great Central Railway in Leicestershire!   Deb and I have already put that on our "must see" list for the next time we're over in the UK - maybe late summer next year.   We'll time it for one of their gala events and enjoy the ride!

 

Whenever we do come over next, I also want to see the Gresley Quad-Art set that has been restored and is operating on the North Norfolk Railway that you told me existed - I hadn't realized any of these dual-bogie sets actually made it into preservation, so I'm delighted that I will still get the chance to see one working

 

Here are the two vids of the TPO for others to enjoy too!

 

Cheers,

 

Ross.

 

 

 

 

 

I've not managed to get to the GCR in many years (although once 1729 makes an appearance it will be right up the list. Coronation beavertails dribble!

 

However I did get to see and ride on the Quad-Art set a few years back ( just checked - 11 years ago!) - you will NOT be dissappointed, it is absolutely stunning.

 

 

 

They keep it under cover and it only comes out to play on special days.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Bucoops

[RBTKraisee]

6 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

I've not managed to get to the GCR in many years (although once 1729 makes an appearance it will be right up the list. Coronation beavertails dribble!

 

However I did get to see and ride on the Quad-Art set a few years back ( just checked - 11 years ago!) - you will NOT be dissappointed, it is absolutely stunning.

 

 

 

They keep it under cover and it only comes out to play on special days.

 

Awesome pictures.   There's no question I'd like a chance to crawl all over it, but I'd also love to see it running.   I'll have to get in contact with the operators to get the timing of my visit "just right"

 

Ross.

[RBTKraisee]

After a long work day it has been rounded out really nicely - I finally have some live track and my first loco's arrived from DCC Supplies!

 

My new Dapol A4 "Mallard" is running-in gently, as I speak!  Woo hoo!

 

Up next will be a Dapol Class 4900 "Cranmore Hall" that will - in time - get a repaint to resemble a certain famous movie star loco

 

I got a few other bits at the same time, including one of Dapol's Gresley 3rd's, a set of Dapol magnetic couplers for me to play with on my RTS and some little bits and bobs for my spares box.

 

Soon I'll take some more pictures of my Gresley's and the Dapol example, to show off the comparison - and I'll do a detailed review.   For now, let me just say that I'm quite happy with how mine stack up against Dapol's :)

 

I've setup a simple oval of track and I'm using a simple DC controller for the running-in, but I previously tested the track with my Arduino DCC++ controller and JMRI  andeverything seems to be working perfectly - amazing to think that I paid less than $25 for full DCC control and the ability to control everything from my PC and my phone!

 

Separately, yesterday I also received my Tam Valley Octopus Aligner to work with my Octopus III.   Everything is coming together nicely.

 

Ross.

 

[Hilux5972]

Looking forward to seeing the repaint. Just remember something that Hornby seem to not be able to grasp. 5972 was the same colour as her coaches. WCRC Maroon which is considerably redder and lighter than BR Maroon. 

[RBTKraisee]

4 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Looking forward to seeing the repaint. Just remember something that Hornby seem to not be able to grasp. 5972 was the same colour as her coaches. WCRC Maroon which is considerably redder and lighter than BR Maroon. 

 

Hmmm.   This subject has me a touch puzzled.

 

The two pictures below include a bit of maroon coach in the picture and I detect a lighter shade on the loco.   It's probably subtle enough - and my painting skills not advanced enough - that unlikely to be able to replicate such a small difference myself, but the topic of colour for this loco is definitely on my radar.

 

Ross.

 

Edited June 12, 2020 by RBTKraisee

[Hilux5972]

Those images aren’t from the movie. That was when she was hauling rail tours and the coaches weren’t fresh from the paint shop. This image from the movie demonstrates it perfectly. One seamless colour the whole length. 

[RBTKraisee]

7 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Those images aren’t from the movie. That was when she was hauling rail tours and the coaches weren’t fresh from the paint shop. This image from the movie demonstrates it perfectly. One seamless colour the whole length. 

 

 

I have to be honest, regardless of what might be different in real life, and what might have been retouched in post-production for the movies, I do want mine to look seamless.

 

One of my biggest problems is sourcing the right paint on this side of the pond.   Paints can't be shipped from the UK because they are technically defined as toxic substances, and neither Phoenix or RailMatch have any distribution lines over here

 

I can order Humbrol from US shops, but I don't know if they do a good shade of Maroon that will closely match my Graham Farish Mk1's - and that's the ultimate baseline - I don't want to repaint the hole rake, so the loco needs to match GF's factory Maroon colour.   I asked Farish if they could provide a RAL / Pantone or other spec for their particular colour, but they said it wasn't available from the factory

 

Based on other info from the web I've been experimenting with Vallejo acrylic 70.926 Red with a variety of different primer/base colours under it.   The paint is supposedly RAL 3004 while BR Maroon is apparently RAL 3005 - so very close.    Not sure what Farish's Maroon is.

 

Using an undercoat of black or brown seems to get me into the right neighbourhood.   I just need to experiment further to find a repeatable combination that works.   I also picked up a handful of really cheap spare (read: broken!) railcars from a local dealer that just closed-down, to use for experimenting and refining my airbrushing techniques on, before I go anywhere near my new Hall!

 

And I still need to find a GF Maroon BSK and three SK coaches from somewhere, to complete the rake accurately.   There was a BSK on ebay a few days ago but it went for about twice the price of a new one, so I let that escape.

 

Ross.

Edited June 13, 2020 by RBTKraisee

[Bucoops]

11 hours ago, RBTKraisee said:

 

One of my biggest problems is sourcing the right paint on this side of the pond.   Paints can't be shipped from the UK because they are technically defined as toxic substances, and neither Phoenix or RailMatch have any distribution lines over here 

 

 

Ironically, I have just opened a tube of squadron white filler. I noted from the tube it contains Toluene - a particularly nasty substance. An American brand

[RBTKraisee]

Rich, it hasn't escaped my notice that there are a lot of double standards over here    US behaviour only ever comes into sharp focus when you consider everything through the "follow the money" lens.

 

But I digress.   Back to the stuff that makes me happy...

 

For the very first time, I put the three Gresley RTS underframes on the track with a loco tonight and ran them under power!!!   Everything seems to be working perfectly so far!

 

I've been priming the new body pieces and they're still drying, so they aren't shown here just yet, I don't have a coupling designed either so I'm running the train backwards, but I thought you might like to see it because I consider it a fairly significant milestone

 

I'll put the bodies on and do another video later.

 

Ross.

 

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by RBTKraisee

[RBTKraisee]

And now with bodies (only base coated)...

 

Ross.

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by RBTKraisee

[Hilux5972]

One further post, the train was made up as follows. 

 

BSK No.99723 Brake Second Corridor Coach

SK No.99716 Second Corridor Coach

TSO No.99317 Tourist Second Open Coach

SK No.99721 Second Corridor Coach

BSK No.99312 Brake Second Corridor Coach

 

The TSO Coach was added in the centre of the train from film 6 onwards. I’ve done extensive research on the train over the years and I can’t for the life of me think where the original info of 3 SK and 1 BSK came from. 

Edited June 14, 2020 by Hilux5972
Corrected

[RBTKraisee]

That's great info, thanks!   I had done my own research too, but not down to the coach number level, so that's very interesting to see.   Do you happen to have a specific date reference for when those particular coaches made up that rake?

 

Regarding three SK's, this high res image from movie 6 has been one of my main reference pics:

 

 

In this shot there is no second BSK at the rear.   Its difficult to see, but looking through the windows, it looks to me like the second and third - and probably also the fourth coach - are all compartment coaches.   To my eye, it looks like the last coach is the open - and that would be logical in terms of easily adding it on to the end of the rake specifically for filming.

 

I also believe that the SO should actually be a TSO.   According to my only solid reference (BR Diagram Book 200) Mk 1 SO's have a 1-aisle-2 seating arrangement, and TSO's have a 2-aisle-2 arrangement.   In the 6th movie the interior shots of the Slytherin coach show it to be 2-aisle-2.   I will add the proviso that the coach used for interior shots might well be a different unit from the one used for exterior shooting, leading to potential discrepancies.   I'm choosing to model the interior arrangements accurately.

 

Finally, I don't see any "1"s on any doors, so this all appears to be second class, again logical for a dedicated school run.

 

Together, this is why I concluded that my rake should probably be BSK, SK, SK, SK, TSO.   The third SK *might* be another TSO.

 

Ross.

Edited June 14, 2020 by RBTKraisee

[Bucoops]

I've seen all the films (read all the books first). I obviously wasn't taking enough notice as I only recall compartment accommodation.

 

I was actually quite surprised how much they copied from Mk1s for the Universal Studios inter-park ride.

[Hilux5972]

I got the coach numbers from a website that now has unfortunately gone offline. It’s showed the train as it was on its way To filming in Rannoch Moor. It had images that corroborated my list above, and clearly showed the sequence of coaches with the type and number as I listed above. I’m assuming that image you posted, and the scene in the movie, was digitally altered for one reason or another, but I can say without any doubt that the list I posted above is the correct order and numbers. 

[Hilux5972]

Here’s 2 images from filming of the movies. Shows a BSK at both ends. The 5th coach in the image you posted would have been digitally altered due to the fact that it was probably full of filming paraphernalia. The second image I post below shows the 5 coach train, the diesel obviously being removed before filming, on its way to Rannoch Moor. 

[Hilux5972]

And one final post, you are indeed correct about the SO being a TSO. The ORR website page for WCRC lists the following coaches. And here is the link to their website as well with the full list of WCRC’s coaching stock. https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/5296/wcr-reg5-certificate.pdf

[RBTKraisee]

Thanks for looking the info up and for providing the references.   It's very helpful, and when I have spare time I'd really like to correct the coach numbers to match these.

 

Having said that though, because there appears to be a discrepancy between the filming information and what actually shows in the movie, I'm going to use what appears in the 6th movie product as the final canon for making my personal decisions.   I acknowledge that the rake might not be the same for every film - and we know it wasn't - but that's the reference point I'm choosing for my layout because I've got my best reference imagery of the train from that movie.

 

I went and looked up the scene a few seconds after the image above, just as Harry is 'instant darkening' the Slytherin coach, and it sheds a bit more, errr, light on the subject

 

 

It is clear to see that following the loco is a BSK.   After that is an SK - you can see the internal door frames.   Then the third coach is the one Harry darkens, and we know that the Slytherins are sitting in TSO 2-aisle-2 seating, so that's the TSO.   Behind that I'm seeing a pair of identical SK's, because you can see the compartment walls through the windows at this angle.

 

So using your coach number references from above, I'm inclined to use the following rake to represent the train as it appears in this scene:

 

99312 BSK

99716 SK

99317 TSO

99718 SK

99721 SK

 

That's good enough for me, though I'll understand if you choose differently.

 

Ross.

 

PS - Just looked, and you don't get a good view from the side of the 5-rake train 45 minutes into Deathly Hallows 1 - its just a distant Helicopter shot, and then a ground shot from the front as the train comes to a stop, with steam blocking most of the rake.   But the picture you showed above, of the train (w/ Diesel) heading for Rannoch Moor for filming, might be from filming that year, which is why the rake is different from the year previous.   The 4-coach rake must be from one of the earlier films.

Edited June 15, 2020 by RBTKraisee

[RBTKraisee]

Just a quick update with, sadly, no pictures

 

I've been working on the Gresley's because I found a problem with the bearing between the coaches - it has broken on me now three times, always in the same place on the Kitchen side, so I've decided it needed a redesign.    The changes haven't quite come out as I wished either, so I'm in the middle of another re-design which will take a few more days.

 

I'm also taking this opportunity to add some additional details, partly inspired by details I found on the Dapol Gresley that are also on some of my RTS reference pictures too, but I hadn't included yet.   I'm also awaiting a batch of black resin to arrive, which I intend to use on these coaches because it will prevent light escaping from anywhere except the windows - something the transparent plastic fails to do well, even if primed with black paint inside.

 

My 1.5mm electrical pickup springs arrived today (sorry, no pics but you can see them via the link) from DCC Concepts.   Now I'm just waiting for my DCC controlled ESU lighting kits to arrive from CR Signals.

 

 

On a loosely related subject, for the last month I've also been working on the financial and business plan for a model museum broadly similar to Miniatur Wunderland, to be located near me, in Orlando.   The financial projections look very good, so I'm getting a presentation ready to start showing to the first accredited investors next week.   Interestingly, everyone involved seems to agree that regardless of whatever happens with Covid19 over the coming year (and the latest numbers from John's Hopkins suggest it's about to get a LOT worse here in the coming months - wave 1 part 2, wave 2 won't be until the winter comes), by this time next year there will be a whole load of Americans (and others) enormously frustrated and tired of staying indoors, who lost all of their vacation days in 2020, and who will just decide to do a blow-out holiday next summer, come hell or high water.   So if we can get an attraction up and running by then, we have an opportunity.   Wish us luck!

 

Ross.

Edited June 18, 2020 by RBTKraisee

[73c]

Wish you all the best with your project and good luck.

 

Phil

[RBTKraisee]

Thanks Phil,

   Also, for my regular day job, our flight hardware just started arriving on Friday for our satellite, which is aimed to launch next year.   It's exciting times for sure, and all this stuff going on will likely mean that my posting here on the thread might get even more spurious than it has been in recent weeks.   Please bear with me - I will still get these Gresley's finished soon and I really want to get back to doing my King's Cross model and then on to Magical places of a certain repute!

 

Ross.

[RBTKraisee]

When the Dapol Gresley 3rd coach arrived I promised to take a few back-to-back shots for comparison purposes.   I finally got around to doing that today!

 

As you'll see from the images below, there are a lot of similarities and there are a few differences.   I'll focus mainly on the differences here

 

 

Let's begin with the roof:

 

The roofs themselves are both good.   My models actually have a very subtle 'transition line' roughly 3/4 of the way up the roofline, all around, that is created by my 3d printer.   I don't know why this happens, and you don't normally see it unless you're specifically looking for it, but it is there in some of the pictures.   I think that the curved ends of the roofs replicate the real thing very closely, and the material thickness at the ends looks to be ideal on both models.

 

The curved gutter and the surrounds for the three destination boards on the Dapol coach is subtler than mine, maybe half as prominent.   I think mine is slightly thicker than prototypical, but when I tried to make with a subtler profile it just didn't come out as cleanly.   I think both look good and I don't see a need to change mine unless someone else specifically wants the two products to be even more similar to each other.

 

The tornado air vents on the roof of the Dapol appear to be double the size of mine.   As I made mine exactly to prototypical scale, its clear that Dapol made the choice to make these parts larger than proto.   The Dapol tornado's also look a little 'softer' around the edges whereas mine are very sharp indeed.

 

The Dapol includes a structure on one end that mine do not:   It looks like a pipe running over the doorway, supported by two brackets.   There is also a downpipe from this structure that runs down next to the gangway too, but I don't know what it's all for.   Anyway, I can see the same structure in two of the reference pics of the Triplet that I have from Steve Banks' site, so it was apparently present on the far ends of both restaurant cars.   I'm going to have to add it!

 

The Dapol roof actually comes off for fitting lighting kits.   Mine is integrated into the body, with the separation line being where the body meets the underframe.   There are small clips front and rear that hold the two parts together.

 

 

Moving lower, to the body:

 

I mentioned the pipe running down from the roof structure above the gangway already, so moving on...   The gangway itself has a concertina effect on the Dapol that I haven't included yet.   Again, this is a good detail and I need to include something similar.

 

The pair of distinctive (electrical?) connections look good on both models.   The Dapol ones have 'cables' that stick out a little more than real ones, but it does mean they are distinctly separate from the body whereas mine actually touch the body for a additional strength.   It wouldn't take much for me to adjust the placement to create a gap behind the cables and keep them away from the body, but I'm not sure it's necessary.   Anyone have an opinion to share on this matter?

 

My gangway door knobs appear to be on the opposite side from Dapol's.   I guess mine are wrong and I can easily fix that.

 

My gangway surrounds include mounts for lamps.   Dapol's do not.   I like my lamp mounts

 

On the ends of the coaches the Dapol paintwork really tries to highlight the curvature of the lower body.   The effect looks a bit more 'dramatic', but I don't think it's correct.   I followed the blueprints exactly for all of my panel trim lines, and it will be up to the final painter to make their own decisions how this should be done.

 

Both models include the coach ID panels in their correct locations and proportions.

 

On the sides, my door hinges are far more prominent than the Dapol's.   I had to guess at the final sizes because I couldn't get many references, but I think they look accurate.

 

My side door handles are about 2x real size, because any smaller and they looked awfully tiny.   Dapol's look to be correctly sized, so I'm debating whether to change mine to match.   Anyone want to share an opinion?

 

The little rectangular panels above the side door windows look correctly proportioned on the Dapol.   Mine look too thin.   Although I took my measurements off the blueprints mine look too thin compared to the reference pictures, so I'm going to change them to make the panels a little more prominent.

 

I've included the small bump-stops for preventing the doors from hitting the body when slamming open.   I don't see any on the Dapol's.

 

I've yet to build a full coach fitted with its windows, but from the test articles I've done there are no issues, so both models look great in this regard.   Appropriate decals can be sourced from the usual suppliers.

 

The wood work effect on the side of the Dapol coach looks great.   If you had a full rake made the same way it would look fine.   But the colours just don't look the same as any of the teak coaches I've seen in photographs.   The frames around the doors and windows  is a solid colour - it actually looks like a shade of purple!    The wood effect appears to be some sort of printed effect.   It looks good until you get real close and see it is made of different coloured dots, then the illusion breaks.   Again, it is just not the correct shade - too grey/pale yellow, not nearly enough orange/red in it.   Having been ultra-critical about that I will say that anything I paint will look considerably worse than Dapol's offerings - but that's a lack of skill on my part!   If you can get someone talented to do it (Steve, Mike et al), I think you can get a far superior teak effect.

 

The Dapol decals look great throughout the model.    The Fox transfers I've got here look like they'll be just as clean and crisp.

 

 

The underframes:

 

I've got a ton more detail on my underframes than the Dapol's.   I've got more under-bracing, far more bolt heads and parts like the cell packs and the dynamo's all include more details than the Dapol too.   I don't know how accurate the placing of these elements is on the Dapol, but all of my elements are accurately located.

 

I don't know what they're called, but on the ends of the underframe, just outboard of the buffer mounts, there appear to be some half-round "covers" shown on the Dapol that I don't currently include.   They didn't appear on the blueprints, but I do see them on the reference pictures.   I plan to add them.

 

Neither the Dapol nor mine currently include a central hook on the end of our underframes.   I'm waiting to see how my coupling design comes together before adding one - Although I want a hook it may not be feasible.

 

 

The Bogies:

 

The Dapol bogies look very good, but I think mine have a bit more detail in them and I think they are a touch more accurate too.   I've also got more detail on the front and rear of my bogies, which Dapol don't include because of the arrangement of their coupling system.

 

And the Dapol wheels are 6.2mm diameter, which is the wrong size!   With those fitted the coach appear to be the correct overall height, but they really should be 7.2mm wheels for accuracy sake.

 

 

In Conclusion:

 

Structurally both products look very well detailed and I don't think any owners will be at all concerned about any of the points I've mentioned above - I've been ultra-critical about parts that are less than a single millimetre across that most owners would likely never even notice!

 

I think a rake of Dapol coaches together would look fantastic, because they would all match.   But I think my Restaurant Triplet Sets will be even more accurate.

 

My main concern is the painting.   I think it will be extremely difficult to integrate these RTS' into an existing rake because I don't think it would be easy to replicate the Dapol paint jobs.   I think you will have to repaint the entire rake in the same style.   With Mike's teaking technique, and maybe with Steve's adjusted version of that technique, I think repainting the whole rake is not that big of an ask.

 

 

I obviously still have to do a design to integrate the coupling mechanisms and make sure the wiring works as intended to get power up from the bogies up to the lighting panels, but my ESU lighting kits just arrived from CR Signals, so that's all on my list of work to be completed.

 

I hope this review was of some help!

 

Ross.

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by RBTKraisee