When did driver only operation DOO start in locomotives?

[muddy water]

I want to put drivers in the cabs of my locos. When did the secondman  position disappear? I have a range of liveries from blue to EWS maroon and gold.

[Waveydavey]

On freight I’d say mid 1980s. Definitely before 1988. Some trains retained guards after this if they conveyed dangerous goods of certain types and local trippers will still have had a secondman and guard into the 1990s reducing to just a guard into the early 2000s.

Other people in the cab with the driver could be route learners, travelling shunters, trainee drivers, instructors or assessors etc.

[slilley]

Mid 80s many diesel locos were fitted with a speed limiter so the controller could not be put in Engine Only and the train coast at more than 5mph. This enabled DOO to be rolled out further. There had been some driver only working going back to the 60s.

Interestingly the Southern Railway had been looking to have one person in the cab as far back as 1941 when the first of the Co-Co booster electric locos was introduced. ASLEF fought this tooth and nail for years. The full story is in my book on the Boosters.

[muddy water]

Thanks, so really any loco in blue would have two people in the cab up to the 1990s I think there were some class 47 that lasted all their later days in blue. (Plus rust!). Any post privatisation is DOO.

[pheaton]

2 hours ago, slilley said:

Mid 80s many diesel locos were fitted with a speed limiter so the controller could not be put in Engine Only and the train coast at more than 5mph. This enabled DOO to be rolled out further. There had been some driver only working going back to the 60s.

Interestingly the Southern Railway had been looking to have one person in the cab as far back as 1941 when the first of the Co-Co booster electric locos was introduced. ASLEF fought this tooth and nail for years. The full story is in my book on the Boosters.

SSF, it was to stop you putting the Master controller in to EO (which shorts out the DSD) and taking a pee out of the door or cooking your dinner on the stove at speeds above 5mph, if you did this it would instantly dump the Train Pipe....not wait 7 seconds like the DSD. It activates the brakes its not a speed limiter. however SSF can be isolated by isolating the DSD.

 

nothing to do with the livery muddy water...even peaks had it...and this was mid-80s

 

rumour has it it came about because of an 86 driver on a freightliner who did exactly that put it in EO and took a wee out the door.....he fell out and the train carried on until it saw the next cautionary AWS ramp...

Edited April 30, 2020 by pheaton

[corneliuslundie]

The Bed Pan electrification used class 317 EMUs which were single manned  north of London from the start - but did not come into use for about a year because of a dispute with the unions. It was about 1982 as that was when I moved to Harpenden. Other will be able to give you chapter and verse. But that is not quite the question you asked.

Jonathan

[russ p]

SSF was initially for single manning as opposed to DOO but for DOO or DOO(NP) non passenger ie freight  it was mandatory. 

I believe the first DOO freight trains were about 1987. An additional payment of ten pounds was given to the driver per shift irrespective of how many DOO trains were worked in a shift 

[rob D2]

To be fair though, a lot of the EWS era 66 shots  have, what I assume, is a shunters or groundstaff , travelling where the second man used to go, I guess to do the shunting stuff when they arrive 

Edited April 30, 2020 by rob D2

[45125]

1 hour ago, russ p said:

SSF was initially for single manning as opposed to DOO but for DOO or DOO(NP) non passenger ie freight  it was mandatory. 

I believe the first DOO freight trains were about 1987. An additional payment of ten pounds was given to the driver per shift irrespective of how many DOO trains were worked in a shift 

SSF was fitted well before1987, the HGR 31/4s had it fitted at refurb, some locos had it before them.

 

[russ p]

14 minutes ago, 45125 said:

SSF was fitted well before1987, the HGR 31/4s had it fitted at refurb, some locos had it before them.

 

 

That's what I mean it was for trains without a secondman as opposed to DOO. The fact that 31s and 45s were fitted with it mid 80s mean that it was an additional safeguard for single manned locomotives rather than later DOO trains in which case it was mandatory for it to be fitted 

[Flood]

You've asked in the first post "When did the secondman  position disappear?". This is not the same as DOO which is when the Guard was not used.

The secondman position disappeared long before DOO. There is a photo on Flickr of a Edin - Glas push-pull in 1983 with just a driver but push-pulls may have been an exception as a Dundee freight and West Country passenger workings in 1984 have two crew. By 1985 the vast majority of loco hauled trains have only the driver in the cab.

DOO is certainly stated for some freights in my 1987 Scottish Working Timetables.

[Ken.W]

10 hours ago, muddy water said:

Thanks, so really any loco in blue would have two people in the cab up to the 1990s I think there were some class 47 that lasted all their later days in blue. (Plus rust!). Any post privatisation is DOO.

Hi

Erm, no, not really.

There's two distinct subjects being talked of here;

Single-manning - of the driving cab - without a secondman

DOO -Driver Only Operation - train worked by only a driver with no guard either, which started very much later.

 

The Secondmans' position didn't disappear, more like faded out. Single-manning started from at least the early '70s, probably late '60s. I believe it started with the same agreement that allowed the guard to travel in the rear cab of fully fitted non-passenger trains, where he would usually use the secondman's seat. All trains did still have a guard though at this time.

There were certain restrictions though as to when a turn could be single manned, which applied to the full turn, not just part of it, so you could see what 'could' be a single-manned train being double-manned as another part of the diagram required it.

First of all, a single-manned diagram had to have a fixed, booked working, no 'as ordered' or as required work, hence things like local goods or trip would be double manned. It also had to contain a booked, guarantied break (the 'PNB') within a certain time period, double-manned turns didn't required any break.

All our DMU diagrams conformed to this and were single-manned. I think single-manning on units had been allowed even earlier.

Any light engine movements had to be double-manned, as with no guard there still had to be two on board for carrying out protection if needed. Plus it was usually the secondman who would do coupling / uncoupling of the loco (though some areas did differ)

One of the main reasons for continued double-manning though, was steam heated trains, a secondman was required to operated the boiler as it often needed to be attended to on the move, either for resetting a fault, or shutting it off 20 minutes before any loco change or shunting was due to take place - there was up to 60 psi of steam in those pipes! And I can vouch that the middle of a Deltic engine room at full pelt's not a very pleasant experience.

So double manning naturally declined as steam heating was phased out.

You could of course have situations such as an ETH fitted train double-manned as a steam heat one was worked the other way, or one turn which we had, a loco hauled train N'cle to York which required double manned then a DMU back to Darlington.

 

DOO operation, ie without a Guard, first started for passenger in the early 80s with certain specially fitted units, the Bedford - St.Pancras already mentioned being the first.

The more general DOO-NP (non-passenger trains) didn't start till several years later, and from around the same time light engines could also be single manned.

[Ken.W]

10 minutes ago, Flood said:

There is a photo on Flickr of a Edin - Glas push-pull in 1983 with just a driver but push-pulls may have been an exception

 

ETH

 

(posted that at same time lol)

[Nearholmer]

8 hours ago, Ken.W said:

All our DMU diagrams conformed to this and were single-manned. I think single-manning on units had been allowed even earlier.

I’m fairly sure that having only a Motorman in the cab has been ordinary practice on EMUs and their predecessor locos on urban railways since they were invented. I doubt that the City and South London or the Liverpool Overhead had ‘firemen’, and the later tubes and the likes of the LSWR suburban electrics didn’t, and the SR didn’t on EMUs. Not sure about the Met ‘outer’, but I can’t believe they put two in the cab of an electric loco.
 

One of the big economies of electric operation was that it only needed one motorman, paid less than a steam driver, rather than a driver and fireman.

 

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Rugd1022]

The secondman grade was officially ended in 1988 as I recall, although as stated above single manning was in place long before this date.

[w124bob]

7 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

The secondman grade was officially ended in 1988 as I recall, although as stated above single manning was in place long before this date.

I arrived at ManVic in late '86 as a youngish driver  from Orpington, as steam heat was just over and only a hand full of freight turns and the bank engine required a 2nd man, there were only a few 2nd men around. DOO was in already for some ecs ,parcels and freight. By mid '88 2nd mans positions had gone and the trainmans concept was introduced the 2nd men went to Bury etc to gain driving positions and footplate recruitment was from the guards grade but not automatic. DOO was now the norm for most non passenger trains, the few exceptions being ecs  departing Newton Heath but not starting at Vic. From memory every late ecs went to NH DOO, this change came about as part of a pay deal which abolished the DOO payment to drivers . SSF was introduced as early as 1980 as I recall the last of the class 56's being delivered new with it( they seemed to take forever to regain the brake when changing ends!). I recall one driver taking delight in hiding in the engine room as we went through Gresley tunnel in the pitch black , scared the life out of me as we coasted out of the other end and no driver! I had my revenge as I  threw his teamug out of the window with the teabag by "accident". He stopped doing this as one day he was on a newly fitted SSF 56!

[roythebus]

IIRC the secondman's job ended in about September 1988, just after BR and I parted company. What KenW says above sounds right. whetehr a 2nd man was required also depended on the length of driving without a break, so KX-Newcastle was pver 4.5 hours, so a 2ndman was required. With HSTs they done it in under 4.5 hours, so no 2ndman. And Newcastle turns meant the crew lodging with minimum statutory rest before working back, usually at some unearthly hour.

 

I'm not sure when single manning was agreed on the Southern and other EMU services. Early Underground lines had 2 men on the loco, and certainly Met electric locos had a "locomotive assistant" to help with coupling and shunting.

 

Initially when i read the thread, I thought it was implied that the 2ndman's position in the cab was removed, they didn't physically take the seat away. I understand some modern stock was badly designed with only one seat in the cab. Not very helpful when there's a legitimate visitor such as a traction inspector or trainee in the cab.

[Nearholmer]

46 minutes ago, roythebus said:

Early Underground lines had 2 men on the loco,

Roy

 

What is your source for that? I’m not arguing, but I would really like to know ‘for certain’ because I thought the CSLR and CLER had only one person on the loco.

 

On their suburban EMU services the LSWR used Motormen (one in the cab) and the Guards has a basic training to allow them to drive (I think only to a very limited extent) in emergency. I believe the same applied on the SR.
 

I’d be really surprised to discover that any EMU operated service anywhere, any time, needed more people in the cab than a motorman.

 

Kevin

 

[johnb]

The Met electrics that I saw when I was a youngster always had two men in the cab.

Saw them enough times from the footbridge just south of Ricksmansworth station which gave an excellent view of the electric loco stabling point

[Nearholmer]

I think Roy has given the answer for the Met ones: a driver/motorman and an ‘assistant’ whose role sounds a bit like a travelling shunter.

 

Trouble is, I doubt anyone alive can remember loco working on the CSLR or the CLR. Photos are a bit inconclusive: some seem to show two men, some a man and a boy, others one man, but they are all so posed that it is hard to tell what is going on really.

Edited May 2, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Ken.W]

On 01/05/2020 at 07:16, Nearholmer said:

I’m fairly sure that having only a Motorman in the cab has been ordinary practice on EMUs and their predecessor locos on urban railways since they were invented. I doubt that the City and South London or the Liverpool Overhead had ‘firemen’, and the later tubes and the likes of the LSWR suburban electrics didn’t, and the SR didn’t on EMUs. Not sure about the Met ‘outer’, but I can’t believe they put two in the cab of an electric loco.
 

One of the big economies of electric operation was that it only needed one motorman, paid less than a steam driver, rather than a driver and fireman.

 

 

 

Thanks, I thought that was the case with EMUs, and had heard the Tyneside electrics being referred to as having 'Motormen', but these ended in '67. What I'm less clear on, which I was referring to was the position with DMUs. My experience with these being of the NE area and as far I recall back to traveling on them in early 70s where always single manned but they'd have conformed to single manning by then anyway I'm less clear on whether they always had been, though I believe this was the case.

 

On 01/05/2020 at 11:03, Rugd1022 said:

The secondman grade was officially ended in 1988 as I recall, although as stated above single manning was in place long before this date.

 

Not so much officially ended, but with the Traincrew Concept mentioned by W124Bob, was merged with that of Guard into that of Trainman, which allowed guards for the first time to the driver's line of promotion. Some of the conditions requiring double manning were also eased at or around this time, such as asking additional 'as required' work to be done, or a full diagram being double manned if any part required it.

By this time however as has been said, secondman's turns were already quite limited and in rapid decline. Right from the initial single manning agreement of the late 60s, the 'norm' was for single manning, ie if a diagram conformed to single manning then it would be. So, particularly as more trains became ETH and steam heating was phased out, double manning sharply declined.

 

6 hours ago, roythebus said:

IIRC the secondman's job ended in about September 1988, just after BR and I parted company. What KenW says above sounds right. whetehr a 2nd man was required also depended on the length of driving without a break, so KX-Newcastle was pver 4.5 hours, so a 2ndman was required. With HSTs they done it in under 4.5 hours, so no 2ndman. And Newcastle turns meant the crew lodging with minimum statutory rest before working back, usually at some unearthly hour.

 

Thanks Roy, and although I wasn't at Gateshead at the time, yes from what I saw the lodge turns were always double manned, Gateshead crews used the then BR staff hostel at Ilford.

The HSTs bring in another matter though. Lodging ended from the introduction of HST services in May '78, the month before I moved to Gateshead, Newcastle / Kings X turns then becoming two-way turns.

The HSTs though were still double manned, but with two drivers, not a secondman, which was the agreement for over 100 mph running - later eased to over 110 mph and ended with the first Driver Restructuring Agreement early under GNER.

We did then however have a situation where, in there first couple of years an odd Newcastle / Edinburgh turn needed to be in effect triple-manned. A two driver diagram which worked an HST in one direction, but a steam heated one was worked the other way. As many of the older mainline drivers at the time had been drivers since steam days it meant they'd never learned the steam-heat boilers, so a secondman had to also be provided for that.

[The Johnster]

Single manning of locomotives, as distinct from DOO, dates back to the single manning agreement with the unions in 1969.  Prior to this multiple unit working, diesel or electric, was normally single manned with only a driver, called a motorman on emus but a driver on dmus for some reason, in the cab, and this had been the case since such trains were first introduced.  There is clearly no need for anyone other than the driver to be in the cab of such a train to operate it.  

 

With the end of steam traction on BR standard gauge in 1968, an opportunity to save money by dispensing with the secondman's role presented itself, and BR attempted to introduce it on the new Freightliner trains, to meet resolute resistance from both ASLEF, the driver's union, and the NUR.  The unions argued that the secondman was needed to keep a lookout on that side of the train as it was in motion and assist the driver with sighting signals.  BR countered that on a fully fitted non passenger train the guard could do that and protect in rear if necessary.   ASLEF refused to allow guards, who were not in the footplate line of promotion, to ride on the locos.

 

Agreement was reached in 1969.  The guard could ride in the back cab of fully fitted non passenger trains (I'm specifying this because it included ecs workings), and would henceforward be 'traincrew', signing on and off duty at loco depots or signing on points with drivers, but still not in the footplate line of promotion.  The guard could be an 'acting secondman' on a single manned light engine (as the unions' argument that all trains need 2 men aboard who have route knowledge and are competent to carry out protection in rear and advance had been accepted), in which case he rode in the secondman's seat in the front cab with the driver.  

 

There were agreed limitations to the conditions in which he could do this.  Distance from the loco depot or signing on point had to be no more than 15 miles, though any distance could be worked by the guard as acting secondman to return to the home shed light engine.  Secondmen were still required on all duties where steam heating was involved as the steam heating equipment was on their side of the lock, all duties that required the driver to be on the footplate for more than 5 hours, all diagrams that required the driver to be on duty for more than 8 hours, book on to book off time,  all special workings, i.e not booked in the WTT, including royal trains and breakdown trains.  Single manned drivers had to be given a 30 minute 'physical needs break' between the 5th and 7th hour on duty, not just on the footplate.  These restrictions applied to multiple unit trains as well for special workings and 8 hour plus diagrams, though I am not sure what the physical needs break requirement was on such trains prior to 1969.

 

As has been said, once a train was coupled on, the guard was supposed to ride in the rear cab if it was fully fitted and non passenger.  The idea was that he could observe the train and be a loco length nearer the rear for protection purposes,  I was never clear about which seat, and never saw or heard any instruction about it.  Some drivers were concerned that guards would interfere with the straight air brake, or the handbrake, or play with the horn, and insisted the guard rode in the secondman's seat, and as the driver is in charge of the loco I always observed this request.  But in practice most drivers on fully fitted single manned duties were of the opinion, which I shared, that a guard riding in the rear cab is pointlessly out of communication with the driver (we used the fire alarm test bell or handsignals out of the window), and can help him observe signals, carry out instructions, and provide company for him; most of the time the driver requested the guard to ride in the front cab with him.  

 

At this time, 1969 to IIRC 73, the footplate line of promotions was traction trainee, secondman, and passed secondman, the later having been passed as competent in Rules and Regulation knowledge to be able to act as a driver. then driver.  The terminology  was altered in '73 to traction trainee, drivers assistant, and assistant driver, then of course driver.  As has been mentioned, HST work over 100mph required two drivers in the cab, but AFAIK an assistant driver could perform this duty conditional on his having the requisite route and traction knowledge.

 

DOO was first introduced on the Bed-Pan trains, as these served staffed stations and there was no need for a guard.  It was later extended to similar passenger services and to freight trains; the job of guard no longer exists and the role on passenger trains has become more orientated to train manager, whose principal job is to deal with passengers, sell tickets, and give them information over the P.A.  AFAIK they do not even need route knowledge, but must be trained to operate heating, airconditioning, doors, and similar equipment, and in emergency evacuation procedures.  

[Swindon 123]

Another thing to note about the introduction of DOO working was that it was initially in a line by line basis that had been assessed as suitable for DOO operated trains. I was on the LDC at Hereford at the time and remember that we could work trains DOO between Hereford-Crewe-Cardiff, but Hereford to Worcester was not  authorised  for DOO trains.

 

Paul J.

[Rivercider]

13 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

 

As has been said, once a train was coupled on, the guard was supposed to ride in the rear cab if it was fully fitted and non passenger.  The idea was that he could observe the train and be a loco length nearer the rear for protection purposes,  I was never clear about which seat, and never saw or heard any instruction about it.  Some drivers were concerned that guards would interfere with the straight air brake, or the handbrake, or play with the horn, and insisted the guard rode in the secondman's seat, and as the driver is in charge of the loco I always observed this request.  

 

 

This reminds me of a story told by an old supervisor I used to work with. He was travelling in the back cab of a light diesel, and as was his custom he made himself comfortable with his feet on the desk (as he often did in the office). After a while he wondered why the driver was repeatedly sounding the horn. Then he suddenly realised that the rocking motion of the loco over the rail joints was causing his foot to operate the loco horn.....

 

cheers

Edited May 3, 2020 by Rivercider
spelling

[Ken.W]

15 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Single manning of locomotives, as distinct from DOO, dates back to the single manning agreement with the unions in 1969.  Prior to this multiple unit working, diesel or electric, was normally single manned with only a driver,

 

The guard could be an 'acting secondman' on a single manned light engine (as the unions' argument that all trains need 2 men aboard who have route knowledge and are competent to carry out protection in rear and advance had been accepted),

 

Secondmen were still required on all duties where steam heating was involved as the steam heating equipment was on their side of the loco

 

At this time, 1969 to IIRC 73, the footplate line of promotions was traction trainee, secondman, and passed secondman, the later having been passed as competent in Rules and Regulation knowledge to be able to act as a driver. then driver.  The terminology  was altered in '73 to traction trainee, drivers assistant, and assistant driver, then of course driver.  As has been mentioned, HST work over 100mph required two drivers in the cab, but AFAIK an assistant driver could perform this duty conditional on his having the requisite route and traction knowledge.

 

Thanks, some more detail to whats been posted, and clarifies the position with DMUs prior to '69 as I thought.

 

On double manning light engines, yes it was due to any train (which for this includes a light engine) to have two persons for carrying out protection if needed. A secondman though did not require route knowledge.

 

A secondman was required for steam heating as, as I posted previously, we were often required to go inside - into the engine room - to attend to the boiler while still running, either to reset faults when they occurred, or shut off steam in sufficient time before somewhere a loco change or shunting was to take place. You didnt want to be splitting those pipes with steam still in them.

 

When the grades designation was changed (definitely pre '77) the equivalent to 'Passed Secondman' was 'Relief Driver', not assistant. Though of course, it was the old terms that remained in general use.

The requirement for high speed running was two Drivers with route and traction knowledge.

A Passed 'Man though, when acting as Driver did so as HGD - Higher Grade Duty - and was in effect the grade of Driver for the day, with of course exactly the same responsibilities, but also conditions, as a Driver.

This last point could confuse the shunters at Heaton at the time. As I said previously a turn would be double manned if any part f the diagram required it, and this included HST running...

So one day I'd be going down to Heaton on a loco, light engine or ecs, the shunter guides us in, then I'm down to couple up / uncouple as the case may be.

Next day I go down, on a different turn, shunter guides us in, he looks at me as I'm not getting down, "two drivers today", as another part of the diagrams HST work, he then goes in-between.