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French autorails - metre gauge and standard gauge


rue_d_etropal
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Possibly one of the most numerous railcars used on French metre gauge is the prewar Billard A80D raicar.

It has been a design I have wanted to dofor 3D printing for a long time, but only now feel confidet enough to do all those curves. Amazes me how they managed to do original design without computers! Probably trial and error with some bodging.

Anyway completed one design here. From this I hope to be able to do variants, such as the external radiator version, the remorques(both original and converted motored railcars), and the articulated version , confusingly referred to as a A150D, because of the bigger engine. I can't find a drawing of the articulated one, but should be able to work out where the single cars wre 'cut'. Also a fair number of small variations, with respect to roof detail, vents and horns. Lots of modified railcars as well, mainly once they transferred to departmental use.

Would like to do the standard gauge version, sen one photo, but wondering if it was just stretched wideways, and by how much. On close look I think they are longer and are A150D . There is also the prewar A150D single ar, which I thin is what I started before, but gave up.

billard-a80d-railcar-1a.jpg

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I had seen adverts, it was one thing that reminded/spurred me on to do design now, but REE are only doing it in HO. Big advantage of 3D printing is multi scales can be done and I have just resized design into 7 different scales in total(but could add more).

Not everyone wants a nice r2r model(assuming they can afford it). 12mm gauge can be difficult for some, and I personally think 9mm gauge is too small for these railcars. For 9mm gauge I would go for 1/100 scale as it is surprisingly well supported for modellers thanks to wargamers (15mm).

There is a nice HO kit I have seem referred on online, and some useful info/pics on another forum, including a plan view of top of roof, showing curve above cab which would have been tricky to work out from other drawings.

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Hi Simon

I agree about them looking wrong for H0e. I built one using one of Mougel's bodies and  a Grafar motor bogie.  but If you used 9mm gauge and 1/100th scale (so the gauge is only 1mm too narrow for metre) then all those nice MKD and  Jouef building kits would be perfect as in reality they're also more or less to that scale which is one commonly used for architectural models.

 

A lot of builders of H0m models of these  got the curves slightly wrong, including Mougel who produced the first kits for them but had a variety of bodies injection moulded but in far larger numbers so he then sold them on remarkably cheaply (I bought a load of them from him at an early Expometrique for 10F each)  I think these are the same kits that Interfer took over when Mougel retired. REE are likely to have gone back to an actual prototype though.

 

GEMME measured one of these - probably the A80D on the Vivarais- and got the curves more precisely . I used to be a member of GEMME so have that edition somewhere with those curves in it. Let me know if you need it.

I have a side elevation of the articulated A150D from MTVS so can also send you a scan of that. 

Billard's numbering system was A (autorail) D (draisine) T (tracteur) then the CV then D (diesel) or E (essence) so the number doesn't really tell you anything about the body shape or even the gauge (they built them in SG for among others the Mamers-St.Calais and the body shape is very different . 

 

The body shape we're all most familiar with is for the large number of these Billard built for the CFD

Every model of the metre gauge  A80D built for the CFD seems to be of the original 2.4m wide version of which 4 of the 32 still survice but they actually supplied to the CFD more of the slightly longer (11,43 m) but narrower version for roadside tramways. These were 2.2M wide- the normal width limit for "tramways voyageurs et marchandises" These had slightly different front windows but AFAIK used the same curved body panels.  The shape of those seems to be common to all the CFD metre gauge autorails and remorques so were probably just the pressing tools in their works.

Edited by Pacific231G
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5 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

they built them in SG for among others the Mamers-St.Calais and the body shape is very different . 

Indeed. Here are their pair at Tuffé Lac a few years back. 

 

DSC_0014.jpeg.803cde7abb25f7a2852ec0af4fac53b8.jpeg

 

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11 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

Hi Simon

I agree about them looking wrong for H0e. I built one using one of Mougel's bodies and  a Grafar motor bogie.  but If you used 9mm gauge and 1/100th scale (so the gauge is only 1mm too narrow for metre) then all those nice MKD and  Jouef building kits would be perfect as in reality they're also more or less to that scale which is one commonly used for architectural models.

 

A lot of builders of H0m models of these  got the curves slightly wrong, including Mougel who produced the first kits for them but had a variety of bodies injection moulded but in far larger numbers so he then sold them on remarkably cheaply (I bought a load of them from him at an early Expometrique for 10F each)  I think these are the same kits that Interfer took over when Mougel retired. REE are likely to have gone back to an actual prototype though.

 

GEMME measured one of these - probably the A80D on the Vivarais- and got the curves more precisely . I used to be a member of GEMME so have that edition somewhere with those curves in it. Let me know if you need it.

I have a side elevation of the articulated A150D from MTVS so can also send you a scan of that. 

Billard's numbering system was A (autorail) D (draisine) T (tracteur) then the CV then D (diesel) or E (essence) so the number doesn't really tell you anything about the body shape or even the gauge (they built them in SG for among others the Mamers-St.Calais and the body shape is very different . 

 

The body shape we're all most familiar with is for the large number of these Billard built for the CFD

Every model of the metre gauge  A80D built for the CFD seems to be of the original 2.4m wide version of which 4 of the 32 still survice but they actually supplied to the CFD more of the slightly longer (11,43 m) but narrower version for roadside tramways. These were 2.2M wide- the normal width limit for "tramways voyageurs et marchandises" These had slightly different front windows but AFAIK used the same curved body panels.  The shape of those seems to be common to all the CFD metre gauge autorails and remorques so were probably just the pressing tools in their works.

I would be interested in side drawing for the articulated version,I presume the articulated version was 2.4metres wide. Fortunately I have drawings for the narrow bodied version, and should be able to work out shape of base of roof. I was very lucky to find drawings online showing radii of curves in shape. Hopefully I have estimated where crve starts jus in front of luggage space doors. I now seem to have got the hang of merging different radius curves, but I still have to be careful when it goes into 3 dimensions and break design down as software seems to go a bid odd sometimes and not get it quite right.

 

The railcars built for the Mamers-Calais line are totally different, but there were some other standard gauge versions which look like they are just longer and presumably wider than the metre gauge versions. I think I have drawings for the Mamers-Calais version so presume the other standard gauge ones were same width.

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one question.Does anyone know of any drawings for the bus type seats. Something that would be needed for biggere scale models. I have just resized  railcar up to 1/22.5, ie same scale as LGB Corpet loco.

So far for metre gauge I think there are 2 versions for wide body, one for narrow body and 2 versions of the articulated(although it is only really roof detail, and blanked off radiator that is different).

Then I can move onto prewar A150D  ans a A135D railcars, and then there are some longer versions as well,all for metre gauge, and then if I have more info there are the standard gauge versions.

 

Musn't forget the remorques, both original builds and converted railcars. These should not be diffcult as they are just simplified versions of the wide bodied A80D railcar. Were there any based on the narrow bodied version?

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2 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

one question.Does anyone know of any drawings for the bus type seats. Something that would be needed for biggere scale models. I have just resized  railcar up to 1/22.5, ie same scale as LGB Corpet loco.

So far for metre gauge I think there are 2 versions for wide body, one for narrow body and 2 versions of the articulated(although it is only really roof detail, and blanked off radiator that is different).

Then I can move onto prewar A150D  ans a A135D railcars, and then there are some longer versions as well,all for metre gauge, and then if I have more info there are the standard gauge versions.

 

These should all be very popular if you can get the necessary publicity in France.

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I think I have already had some interest from France for some of my models.

Just working out what other scales I can do. Certainly 1/64, then maybe 1/120 and possibly 1/35 for military modellers.Wondering about 1/19 scale as this would suit some garden railway modellers.

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4 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

I would be interested in side drawing for the articulated version,I presume the articulated version was 2.4metres wide. Fortunately I have drawings for the narrow bodied version, and should be able to work out shape of base of roof. I was very lucky to find drawings online showing radii of curves in shape. Hopefully I have estimated where crve starts jus in front of luggage space doors. I now seem to have got the hang of merging different radius curves, but I still have to be careful when it goes into 3 dimensions and break design down as software seems to go a bid odd sometimes and not get it quite right.

but there were some other standard gauge versions which look like they are just longer and presumably wider than the metre gauge versions. I think I have drawings for the Mamers-Calais version so presume the other standard gauge ones were same width.

This is the A150D2

970167132_Billard150D2worksphotos.jpg.9b3818826f6a616c3fe3a81c3bf97bb8.jpg1401322531_Billard150D2.jpg.9c7d502199cd9e9367007060cffd08fb.jpg

 

The railcars built for the Mamers-Calais line are indeed totally different from the autorails derived from the A80D , apart from anything else they're four wheel vehicles rather than bogies and ride rather higher than the other ,I've actually travelled on one of them

 

The articulated A150D2 was 2.4m wide but the non articulated A150D was very slightly narrower at 2.33m I assume this was because it was longer so needed to be slightly narrower to fit in the same envelope.

 

There was some variation in SG width. The A75s,  two of which the MStC had (and were preserved), were 2.66m wide while the one A150D 3  and two A150D5  which had the same end shape as the A80D were 2.87m wide

 

3 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

one question.Does anyone know of any drawings for the bus type seats. Something that would be needed for biggere scale models. I have just resized  railcar up to 1/22.5, ie same scale as LGB Corpet loco.

 

Not as such but you'll see that the side elevations of the A150D2 include an internal which gives the end shape of the seats. I also have  a drawing of the A150D that includes a plan view. I shouldn't post that as it's a drawing by J-P Soudet but I'll PM it to you.

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thanks for that. noticed there are some subtle differences, assuming drawing is correct, namely the rear windows in cabs is shorter. Not obvious in some photos. Also might be able to workout seats from side view of interior combined with plan view I already have.

On looking though my copy of book on Billard for interior photos, found a drawing of the A150D3 standard gauge version. No end view but should be able to work that out.

I will concentrate on the metre gauge versions for now.

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I'll have to check if these are the same type as used on the Tramways de Correze.  I already have an HO scale scratch built station and fancy a small cameo layout to site it on.  How do you anticipate powering it?

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The Correze ones are the narrow body. Also photos show them with what I assume is modified radiator, both ends as I have seen a photo on another line with older radiator  and only at engine end, like the wider railcars with external radiator.  I plan to do both widths and all radiator types.

As for powering , it would depend on scale. I model in various scales, and for 1/100 scale would use a Tomix or Kato chassis, and for 1/55 scale(5.5mm/f) I have plenty of HO/IOO motor bogies to choose from. I think some of the French modellers have managed to stretch N gauge axles to fit 12mm gauge, otherwise one of the trambogies might work OK.

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9 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

The Correze ones are the narrow body. Also photos show them with what I assume is modified radiator, both ends as I have seen a photo on another line with older radiator  and only at engine end, like the wider railcars with external radiator.  I plan to do both widths and all radiator types.

As for powering , it would depend on scale. I model in various scales, and for 1/100 scale would use a Tomix or Kato chassis, and for 1/55 scale(5.5mm/f) I have plenty of HO/IOO motor bogies to choose from. I think some of the French modellers have managed to stretch N gauge axles to fit 12mm gauge, otherwise one of the trambogies might work OK.

 

It all depends how accurate one wants to be. The bogies are barely visible on these unless your layout is at eye level.

 

I think that you could be onto something with the Japanese N chassis as they have some Co-Bo that might work with one axle removed.

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4 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

It all depends how accurate one wants to be. The bogies are barely visible on these unless your layout is at eye level.

 

I think that you could be onto something with the Japanese N chassis as they have some Co-Bo that might work with one axle removed.

I would not want to mess around with some of these motor bogies.Often don't go back together properly. in 1/100 bogies are not that visible, unles you are planning to have track at eyelevel.

 

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I wasn't quite happy with side profile of front and back, so had another go. Looking at photos the side priofile of the end windows loos straight not a continuous curve, which makes sence from a construction point of view. Lots of curves going in different directins so better to get rid of one.

Finished one version now up and running. wide bodied version with internal radiator.

http://www.rue-d-etropal.com/3D-printing/3d_printed-french-metre-gauge.htm

Have added more scales, making 12 in total, but can more. Thinking 1/50 might be one.

 

Trying to work out how far radiators stick out on other railcars, as they look differnt in different photos. The drawings for the articulated version suggest it is angled backwards. other railcars have radiator upright. Obviously modifications were done over the years, in particular fitting of new engines.

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I presume that you are aware that the next issue of Voie Libre (due July) will cover the A80D in its Dossier feature? 

 

I would be interested in buying the Tramways of the Correze version in 1:55 scale.  I have been contemplating scratchbuilding one to go with the earlier Saurier, Tartary and deDion Bouton railcars which I am building in plasticard.

 

Mick Ralph

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On 04/05/2020 at 11:54, rue_d_etropal said:

I wasn't quite happy with side profile of front and back, so had another go. Looking at photos the side priofile of the end windows loos straight not a continuous curve, which makes sence from a construction point of view. Lots of curves going in different directins so better to get rid of one.

Finished one version now up and running. wide bodied version with internal radiator.

http://www.rue-d-etropal.com/3D-printing/3d_printed-french-metre-gauge.htm

Have added more scales, making 12 in total, but can more. Thinking 1/50 might be one.

 

Trying to work out how far radiators stick out on other railcars, as they look differnt in different photos. The drawings for the articulated version suggest it is angled backwards. other railcars have radiator upright. Obviously modifications were done over the years, in particular fitting of new engines.

Hi Simon

for the A80Ds the radiators seem to have simply been those that came fitted to the engines which were mounted right at the front of the car.  The basic A80D body would have been designed to have a flush radiator using the CLM 85 L C 3 engine but even here there were variations. Some of the narrower A80D1s  originally used on the CFD de la Dordogne ended up in the Correze (Tramways de Correze and PO Correze) where at least some of them they has  a radiator grill (though in later pictures these seem to have gone and the 'naked' radiator is very slightly set back)  but the other A80D 1s did not.

 

The shape of the body ends was amended for the A150D and is rather more angular but these had a far larger engine.  The shape of the 150D also looks as as though it may have been nodding slightly in the direction of the then fashionable "streamline" look though at the speeds they travelled that would have been irrelevant.

 

The radiators on the articulated A150D 2 are indeed angled slightly back. The body end shape appears to be basically the same as that of A80D but in that case the engine was mounted at the rear of one of the two halves with cooling pipes to a radiator at end end of the unit. The motor powered the the single axle at the end of each half with a cardan shaft carrying power to the axle on the non motor half and those two axles were mounted to their respective halves so were not a bogie.    

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I found a photo online with articulated railcar next to one of the non articulated ones.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/47704640@N02/8624426066

looks like the radiator on the articulated one is slightly wider, so centre window is wider and two small windows are narrower.

From the side drawing it is possible to work out that the small windows are slightly further back , so must be set further apart. Without a proper front end drawing, I will have to work out position using side view.

Considering one of these articulated railcars is preserved , it is odd there are no other published drawings.

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Added version with external fitted radiator. Found photos of one in Northern France.

Took opportunity to remove fittings from roof, as they varied fro railcar to railcar, sometimes altered.

Next will be the articulated version hopefully.

billard-a80d-rad-railcar-1a.jpg

 

 

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Hi Simon

The shot of the A80D and A150D2 is interesting shot and I've not seen them lined up side by side like that. Looking more closely I think the windows are the same- there'd be liitle value in changing them and the body width is the same 2.4m. I think it's the external radiator housing on the A150D2 222 that makes it look larger but if you compare the width of the actual radiators with the windows above them they're in the same proportions . Curiously, looking at several images of the other end of 222 as preserved, the radiator on the half without the motor had been removed and blanked off and the external pipework removed though that's not how they appeared in original service. 

I have some of my own photos of the A80D and A150D that I took on the Vivarais in the 1980s that I'll scan when I get a moment.

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Somewhere I read that because the engine was bigger the windows were different, and the side plan certainly suggests that. The radiator is bigger(wider) than the one fitted to the single railcar with an external radiator.

I did wonder if it might be similar to other 150D radiators, but they are even bigger and upright, not sloping backwards.

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On 12/05/2020 at 01:41, rue_d_etropal said:

Somewhere I read that because the engine was bigger the windows were different, and the side plan certainly suggests that. The radiator is bigger(wider) than the one fitted to the single railcar with an external radiator.

I did wonder if it might be similar to other 150D radiators, but they are even bigger and upright, not sloping backwards.

They are very different on the A150D because the engine is much larger and that difference is reflected in the non motor end and the autrorail is somewhat taller. On the A150D 2 the same engine is is near the centre of the articulated car so the overall shape of the driving ends appear to be the same as the A80D and unlike the other Billard autorails the same at both ends with originally two radators.

It's taken  me a while to find square end on views of both but the radiator on the A150D2 is wider than on the A80D (but not apparently as large as that on the A150D), the first set of side windows (with the windscreen wipers on the driver's side) are correspondingly narrower and the second set of side windows appear to be the same on both. It's difficult to get the exact shape of the windows that are not square to the ends or sides from the drawings.

1306816025_BillardA80DA150Dfrontfaces.jpg.b7e397b49e56e887b4ce50e579a8f7a7.jpg

 

The right hand image of the A150D2 has some perspective distortion so I would be cautious about taking any measurements from it.

Below are some of my own photos of the A80D and A150D taken on the Vivarais in the 1980s but though I saw the CFR (now VFV) A150D2 it was locked in a shed. 

It might be worth getting in touch with Velay Express (previously  Voies ferrées du Velay - VFV) the preservation group who run the 'other' Vivarais  line 

https://velay-express.fr/contact/

They have the only survivor of the four A150D2s built by Billard and also have an A80D so should know which parts such as windows were common to both. The outer bogies on the A150D2 are the same as the non motorised bogie of the A80D.

From all accounts the A150D2 gave endless trouble to the Vivarais and at some stage they removed the radiator in the half that didn't house the engine and put a blankng plate over it. I assume this was because of leakage from the flexible pipes between the two halves.

BTW the radiators on the A80Ds are slightly sloped back but not nearly as much as the A150D

 

Billard_C150D_CFV_Tournon_1980s_c_DT.jpg.d34997ed2547a8fbbaf4d4e35a036a9c.jpg

 

CFV A150D at Tournon

The original Vivarais terminus at Tournon was alongside the closed SNCF station with the loco shed beyond. This involved a section of dual gauge running along the SNCF's freight only Rhone right bank main line which was fairly alarming in wooden bodied stock seeing the heavy freight trains pounding up and down the line. The preserved CFV closed in 2008 and when it reopened in 2013 the SNCF were having none of this so the CFV had to build a new separate terminus two and a half kilometres up the line outside Tournon.  

Billard_A150D_CFV_c_DT.jpg.e0b0b6edad794807e292f3cdd392c2ca.jpg

The non motor driving end of the CFV's A150D  at Lamastre.

The autorail had preceded the steam hauled train we travelled on from Tournon and returned from Lamastre with a trailer (taking half the time for the run) soon after the steam train  arrived at noon.

1400375405_Billards004cDT.jpg.81e4beae0503b14f76e6cefc48f0e684.jpg

A rather grainy image of one of the CFV's A80Ds taken from the background of a photo of Lamastre's station.

Unfortunately I hadn't realsed how solidly booked the restaurants in Lamastre were so, by the time I'd photographed the train and station, we were reduced to buyng a couple of ham baguette from the station buffet and kicking our heels for a couple of hours in the hot sun while the other passengers and the crew enjoyed a long relaxed lunch. My girlfriend was not best pleased!

 

There are far more images of these autorails' including an original Billard works drawing of the A80D to be found on.

http://www.passion-metrique.net/

For anyone interested in French metre and narrow gauge railways it's probably well worth joining this forum to access its search function.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Pacific231G
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that looks better, seing front end. I have found that I can work out these angled windows using a couple of tricks I have developed. Having a decent front end view will help, which I can use with the side view drawing.

I get a lot of useful stuff from that forum.I think I did join, but have not signed on for a while. Quite often find things by google, which gives me a start point in a thread.

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