Trap point to private siding

[davegardnerisme]

My layout has a private siding. I’ve recently been installing point rodding and it got me thinking. 
 

In my era (early 60s) this thread suggests gates would probably exist, but be left open and in disrepair. 
 

Someone also suggests the trap point would be part of the private railway. 
 

I was imagining it would make more sense for it to be part of the main railway, because then the signal box retains control over it directly... eg I was going to run a point rod to it. 
 

So my question is: does it sound reasonable to have a private siding, where the trap point would be before the gate (and hence still part of the main railway), and have that trap operated from the signal box?

 

[Rivercider]

Here hopefully is a picture of the Pinhoe Cold Store siding on the outskirts of Exeter in the 1960s.

It looks like a short spur, rather than a trap, but the point is actually under the gate,

 

cheers

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/115709929@N08/47779131742/in/photolist-2fN5xgu-7UugLE-6k4Sfj-aH6TDv-efvz3h-ecLuWT-N9bEHU-Ta5ybz-MqG7kM-5S4Drn-7dhygP-Eytyyw-2cTTCBP-7w82h3-aCqUpz-2h26ekA-8AD7Po-2621E8D-DKohRg-2ani7p1-2UDNdJ-p4Y3k1-rhJgq-KTFpZo-23qfGB2-93gzbi-UKmKTN-q5BTgT-2hVQgAB-LvyQ7i-21DypFo-Q2D3KW-546BhX-cen9wh-mETiSC-21MTCCD-JMPMSM-Bfo2E4-2d34UEL-2io3BtT-ML96mb-2cVQtyx-J72trm-jUvNeH-XXo9w1-87Ui1n-3tooKW-N1pFxV-2hDHuc8-2g9Mhxe

[davegardnerisme]

Would it have been worked from the signal box, or from a lever on the end of the sleeper?

[Rivercider]

8 minutes ago, davegardnerisme said:

Would it have been worked from the signal box, or from a lever on the end of the sleeper?

I had to search my library, it was worked from the box.

In 'The Salisbury to Exeter Line' by Phillips and Pryer there is a 1962 signalling diagram.

There is a ground signal visible just in front of the gate, and there is another at the toe of the trailing point just out of shot,

 

cheers

[eastglosmog]

Just been looking through the Seven & Wye Railway Vol 2.  There is a picture of the Crown siding close to Serridge Junction, and that had a catch point on the railway side of the gate and it was worked by a common lever with the siding points from the junction box.  It also had a ground signal to control exit, also worked from the box.  (The siding was installed by the railway, so maybe not typical installation.)

[Wheatley]

The point rodding to the trap in Rivercider's pic goes along the left hand cess, under both lines and appears behind the Warship. Normally worked off the same lever as the connection the main line, as for a crossover. 

[RailWest]

The trap point would be worked by the mainline railway's signal-box or ground-frame. Exactly whereabouts it would be in relation to the gate would depend in part upon the strictures of the layout.

 

AIUI the gate was usually to delineate the railway/private boundary. Sometimes the gates were bolted by the signal-box/ground-frame, sometimes not. It was not uncommon I think for the 'big railway' to be responsible under the relevant PSA (Private Siding Agreement) for the maintenance of a short section of the track on the private side of the boundary, probably to ensure that the bit of track on which their engine had to run in order to shunt the siding was kept in good order!

 

[davegardnerisme]

Thanks for all the pointers. It’s helping me formulate a plan for this part of my layout!

[Compound2632]

Surely the trap point would be worked as a crossover with the trailing point into the running line, so it's necessarily part of the railway company infrastructure. Worked either directly by the box or by a ground frame released from the box.

[micknich2003]

The attached may be of interest, it shows the arrangement of a GF and siding gate etc. Copied from the LNERly "Line Diagram Book" it depicts South Cave, East Yorkshire  on the former H&BRly, I have over printed the distances. As can be seen, the entire siding was maintained by the LNERly, but from the boundary gate was charged to the sand pit Co. The GF was at 51.04c.

Edited May 2, 2020 by micknich2003

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, micknich2003 said:

The attached may be of interest, it shows the arrangement of a GF and siding gate etc. Copied from the LNERly "Line Diagram Book" it depicts South Cave, East Yorkshire  on the former H&BRly, I have over printed the distances. As can be seen, the entire siding was maintained by the LNERly, but from the boundary gate was charged to the sand pit Co. The GF was at 51.04c.

 

 

Interesting to note that the trailing connection is to the up line even though the siding is on the down side. Presumably the geography of the location precluded the siding being laid out facing the opposite way.

[micknich2003]

The GF and connections were provided approx twenty years after the first opening of the railway, with the road bridge etc, probably no alternative. From memory the siding was originally worked by a  Wakefield Co, if so the connection would face the right way for loaded wagons.

[micknich2003]

Though not 100% relevant to the present discussion, the attached instructions from the H&BRly Appendix may be of interest.

[Compound2632]

That's interesting as demonstrating that a train could lie locked inside the siding while other traffic passed. There was a discussion a good while back as to whether this would be permitted at a siding within a block section on a single line; I seem to remember it was inconclusive - or maybe depended on the type of single line equipment in use.

[micknich2003]

Though not obvious from my drawing, the siding connection was actually in "Station Limits" and not the "Block Section".

[RailWest]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

That's interesting as demonstrating that a train could lie locked inside the siding while other traffic passed. There was a discussion a good while back as to whether this would be permitted at a siding within a block section on a single line; I seem to remember it was inconclusive - or maybe depended on the type of single line equipment in use.

You can 'shut in' at an intermediate siding within a block section provided that the block control equipment provided the necessary facility.

[beast66606]

Port Sunlight Siding ...

 

If you want information about the actual location let me know, I own the original LNWR signal box diagram from there and worked the box (unofficially) for a few years in the late 1970s/early 1980s.

After the 4 tracks were reduced to 2 post 1973 the trap points were moved from the scissors crossover arrangement which one existed at the yard / main lin connections, the traps were roughly on the site of the old down fast and were simple 2 blade types.