Did GWR Halls ever ran in plain black

[cypherman]

Hi all,

I was wondering if any of the GWR Halls ever ran in plain black whilst in BR hands.

[cypherman]

Any one know the answer.

[hallmodelspares]

Yes they did the modified halls from 6959 (the first) were all turned out in black unlined. this covers the first 12 no names just numbered as I am aware of. the other triang type halls the first hall class like albert hall

[CCGWR]

18 hours ago, cypherman said:

Hi all,

I was wondering if any of the GWR Halls ever ran in plain black whilst in BR hands.

 

Not sure any Halls ran in plain black in BR days as were lined in red and white when painted in black. From the mid 50s they were painted in lined green. In saying that some may have carried the GWR Wartime Black into early BR days with the lettering changed but I'm not 100% sure about that.

 

Connor 

[DCB]

There are photos of  at least one prairies and a Granges freshly repaintedat Swindon in plain black with later emblem circa 1964 towards the end of repairs at Swindon having previously been lined green. Possibly a Hall had the same treatment?  

Edited May 3, 2020 by DavidCBroad

[cypherman]

Quote

 

Hi all,

Thanks for the info. I think I will be doing one of the engines Hall has mentioned.

[hallmodelspares]

In GWR days many of the class in green were turned out in a mixture of lined and unlined not really a set layout for the class & also the same for saints/manor/county 4-6-0 classes. Maybe a case of saying Br early black lined they often lost the lining and looked unlined when run and not looked after

Edited May 3, 2020 by hallmodelspares
missed a bit

[CCGWR]

I found a picture of #4903 Astley Hall at Oxford in 1956 in what is supposedly BR Mixed Traffic lined black but it is unlined with no emblem on the tender and just lining present on the loco, mind you it is in fairly clean, presentable condition. The book is L.Waters 'Great Western Halls and Modified Halls'

 

Thought it might be if interest to you.

 

Connor

[cypherman]

Hi CCGWR,

Thanks for the info.

[Steamport Southport]

Here's the photo.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/8241385853

 

 

 

Jason

[cypherman]

Hi,

Thanks for the picture. It has answered numerous questions for me. Such as that they did not paint over the safety valve casing. Rather strange as to why it is in half lined paintwork and no logo.

The engine was not scrapped till 1964 so I wonder if it was partway through a paint job at the time.

[The Johnster]

I think it is more likely that we are looking at a tender swap using a tender that had not been finished properly before it was needed in traffic.  6959-71 were turned out new in wartime austerity black with plated cab side windows; the copper chimney cap and brass safety valve cover were painted over to make the locos less conspicuous to the Luftwaffe.  I would assume that these locos retained that livery until their first major overhaul which would have been in the early 50s.  BR insignia were not put on locos until they were repainted at overhaul (unlike today, branding was not a high priority).  

 

Halls repainted between 1945 and the end of 1947 were in fully lined green with G crest W insignia on the tender, with copper and brass polished up.  The only other GW locos painted in this livery for this period were Kings, Castles, and the Hawksworth 10xx Counties,.  This livery remained in use for locos coming out of paint shops between 1/1/48 and 31/5/48, but with BRITISH RAILWAYS in 1920s style Egyptian Serif on the tender.  After 1/6/48 Halls were painted in LNWR style lined black and the 'unicycling lion' insignia, with red backed number and name plates, and BR smokebox number plates and shed code plates were applied at the sheds.  The red backed number and name plates went out of use in the early 50s but may have remained on some locos.  

 

Next change was to lined green in 1956, and then lined green with the new 'ferret and dartboard' insignia in 1958.  AFAIK, though I am happy to be proved wrong, no Halls were ever subsequently given 'economy' liveries of unlined green or plain black.

 

To summarise, 6959-71 and any earlier Halls painted in the 1942-5 period may have survived into early BR days in plain black livery, but would have been probably all repainted into BR mixed traffic livery by about 1951 or 2.  If you can find out when locos were outshopped after overhauls and went through paint shops, or have dated and provenanced photographic evidence, you should be ok, but in the absence of that, best guess is the best you can do.  I have had to take this sort of Rule 1 guesstimated punt with several of my locos, and am happy enough with them unless better information comes to light, in which case I will repaint them.

[Miss Prism]

The only thing the 4903 Oxford pic proves is that there was at least one 4000g tender in circulation in plain black and where insignia had not been applied or had been (probably a WWII specimen) painted over.

 

The confinement of the anomaly to Halls is spurious.

 

[Steamport Southport]

I've a feeling it's a loco due to go into the works. Shouldn't it also have red boiler band lining?

 

A good photograph and very modellable. I have a few Halls after snapping up the Bachmann ones Hattons were flogging off recently.

 

But that name reminds me too much of that awful song by Rick Ghastly. 

 

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

Just had a quick look around the net and found this undated photograph. Zooming in it's definitely lined green with large early crest. So has had a repaint between the earlier photograph and adoption of the later crest.

 

https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/GWRSteam-1/Collett-Locomotives/Collett-460-designs/Collet-Hall-4900-Class-4900695/Collett-Halls-Pre-1968/49004905-Built-1928/i-Bn8PJKX

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

I've a feeling it's a loco due to go into the works. Shouldn't it also have red boiler band lining?

 

A good photograph and very modellable. I have a few Halls after snapping up the Bachmann ones Hattons were flogging off recently.

 

But that name reminds me too much of that awful song by Rick Ghastly. 

 

 

 

Jason

The one with the silent P in front of his name?

[Steamport Southport]

5 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

The one with the silent P in front of his name?

 

Never met him. But I used to know a lad whose brother was in a band with him in Newton-le-Willows who would be quite happy to meet him in a darkened alley....

 

 

I was doing a little more searching and I've found a photo of the plates. Photo Wiki

 

 

 

 

Jason

[cypherman]

Quote

 

Hi all

The first picture in the link Steamport posted is quite interesting. As that engine if memory serves me actually started out life as a saint. Its number was 2925 and was rebuilt in early 1924 with smaller wheels at 6ft wheels as the prototype for the new Hall class. Saint Martin was further rebuilt in 1924 and the cylinders were realigned in relation to the driving axle and a more modern 'Castle'-type cab was fitted at the Swindon Works. During a 3 year trial period further modifications such a changing the pitch of the taper boiler and adding outside steam pipes were done

 

Edited May 8, 2020 by cypherman