Fitting LEDs to 4mm scale signals

[beast66606]

Personally, I don't bother lighting the signals, most of the time they weren't lit anyway. The sectional appendix says when the lamps were lit.

 

And I don't operate my layout at night time.

 

 

When the lamps were lit, they were on all the time. The lamp would usually last about eight days. The lampman/porter would have to go out to collect them once a week, with replacement lamps.

 

They were not extinguished on a daily basis.

 

[Tim V]

So you would walk 1000+ yards in each direction out to the distant signals twice a day to light them and extinguish them?

[The Stationmaster]

When the lamps were lit, they were on all the time. The lamp would usually last about eight days. The lampman/porter would have to go out to collect them once a week, with replacement lamps.

 

They were not extinguished on a daily basis.

 

 

In some places signal lamps were not lit or were only lit for part of the year (i.e the darker days) - such locations were usually listed in the Sectional Appendix as Beast has already noted.

[Captain Kernow]

So you would walk 1000+ yards in each direction out to the distant signals twice a day to light them and extinguish them?

Having (a) done this myself (lamping) on a heritage railway and (B) managed a lampman as part of a former job, I know that it would cost more in labour and time than it would save in lamp oil. I like the idea of a Sectional Appendix entry covering Callow Lane, indicating that the lamps aren't illuminated on winter nights might be quite amusing.....

 

Anyway, I'll still probably fit them with LEDs, just to see how difficult it is!

 

Dave - one thing you mentioned was 'LED paint' - not something I've heard of before - presumably straightforward to get hold of?

[craigwelsh]

This is from the Swansea District appendix.

 

Table Q Lighting and Extinguishing of Signal Lamps. Rule 73.

 

Running Signals

Except as shewn below, lamps of all running lines must be lighted during the hours of darkness and during fog or falling snow whilst the line is open for traffic, whether the Signal Boxes are open or closed :-

 

Exception 1. On lines where the train service is confined to the hours of daylight, the signals should not be lighted except during fog or falling snow, but the lamps must be kept in readiness for immediate use, if necessary.

 

Exception 2. At the undermentioned Signal Boxes which are opened temporarily for seasonal special traffic, the signals shewn will not be lighted during periods of the year the Signal Boxes are closed.

 

...

 

BRECON TO NEATH RIVERSIDE

Devynock & Sennybridge ALL SIGNALS .. .. .. .. April 1st to September 15th

 

(other places list "Until further notice")

 

...

 

Cardiff District on the other hand has NIL and also adds "When it is necessary for any signal which forms one of a group to be alight, the whole of the lamps must be lighted." The other text is identical however.

 

Not sure where my Newport one is at the moment and don't have any others to give you something more local to work off.

 

Shunting signals have their own bit depending on whether shunting is likely to occur at night.

[Eggesford box]

Having (a) done this myself (lamping) on a heritage railway and ( managed a lampman as part of a former job, I know that it would cost more in labour and time than it would save in lamp oil. I like the idea of a Sectional Appendix entry covering Callow Lane, indicating that the lamps aren't illuminated on winter nights might be quite amusing.....

 

Anyway, I'll still probably fit them with LEDs, just to see how difficult it is!

 

Dave - one thing you mentioned was 'LED paint' - not something I've heard of before - presumably straightforward to get hold of?

Do you mean glass paint? I did use this once on a white LED to use for a French Carre Violet.

[beast66606]

Blimey, if CK is still waiting for an answer I'll be amazed, the question is nearly 2 years old.

[RIP OO]

...How have other people achieved this....

 

Fibre-optic strand inside a hollow signal post; LED under baseboard; many strands onto one LED. JD sticker.

Edited January 19, 2012 by RIP OO

[Horsetan]

Blimey, if CK is still waiting for an answer I'll be amazed, the question is nearly 2 years old.

 

Maybe the answers were sent when the broadband was busy?

[Eggesford box]

Blimey, if CK is still waiting for an answer I'll be amazed, the question is nearly 2 years old.

All things come to those who wait!

[Philou]

Well, I'm going to revive this thread seeing as we're in lockdown. I have unearthed some very old Ratio kits (Nos LQ60/61 and 468/469, the latter having pre-coloured arms and metal reinforcement) that I spent yesterday cutting out of their sprues (plastic had become brittle in one case ) and I have found that out of the four kits I can make up 11 signals (four brackets and the rest single arm) plus 5 out of the 13 ground signals. Not bad for 40+ year-old kits that cost (at the time) £4. Mike, The Stationmaster of the parish, kindly gave me some info regarding the signals I should like to create.

 

Before I start drilling out lamps to take LEDs and the pivots to take some brass tube, can anyone let me know how they got on with their LEDs? 0.8mm v. 1.0mm for example or what difficulties were encountered in wiring them up.

 

@Captain Kernow Did you manage to do your signals? Curiosity and all that ...........

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

[Captain Kernow]

5 hours ago, Philou said:

@Captain Kernow Did you manage to do your signals? Curiosity and all that

Hi Philip,

 

It took me a moment to realise that you were referring to 'Callow Lane', which has not had any work done on it since 2014, although I am planning to re-start work in a few months.

 

To answer your question, I decided in the end not to fit illumination to the signals on the layout and all three main aspect running semaphores are now constructed. I have yet to start any of the ground signals, so I suppose I could do something there, but to be honest, the notion of operating the layout in darkness is appealing less and less these days, so I'll probably just write up my Sectional Appendix entry.

 

Also, for me, it's about how best to use limited modelling time.

 

[Philou]

Hello Captain,

 

Thank you for your reply and I can understand regarding limited modelling time - the clock is ticking away as it were. I only asked as I have time on my hands and having been caught on the back foot over here regarding the lockdown, I've only got some age-old kits to keep me busy and those being some signals I thought I'd try my hand at putting some lights as well at making them operational. I've located some exceeding small LEDs that measure 0.5x1.0mm AND wired. The first two lamps are done drilling-wise (LEDs to be ordered so won't be here for a while) but the spectacle plates are proving more problematic - the plastic is a little brittle and I may need to look elsewhere for some newer ones.

 

Cheers anyway and take care,

 

Philip

[Philou]

Here we go - I've made a start and thanks to Mike, The Stationmaster, of this parish, the signal types are sorted and work has commenced drilling out the lamps to take some pico-LEDs and the opening out of the spectacles to take coloured gels. If things work out I shall be putting in blue rather than green gel as per the originals so as to counter the yellow colour of the oil lamp flame.

 

A question: Is there anything special that needs to be done when setting up the mechanisms to make the signals operate? I understand that with the older signals this aspect could be somewhat 'difficult'. Pictures of progress to follow.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[tomparryharry]

Hello Phillip, I'll be watching your thread with interest. The 'blue' you describe is a copper-based alloy, caused (I believe) by there being moisture present at the point of smelting the alloy. However, I don't advocate melting a model kit! I do wonder however, if there is a paint available in model boats to allow the port & starboard effect to take place.

 

Pico-LEDS? That's a new one on me. Are they available as an even smaller size?

 

The layout I'm planning doesn't have junction signals on the prototype, so I think I'm safe.... For now.....

 

Best wishes,

Ian.  

[Rowsley17D]

A bit late to the party but ModelU signal lamps, okay so they are GWR ones, are hollow and a nano-sized LED fits in them, at least the ones that DCC Concepts sell do. 

 

[Philou]

I forgot I'd made comment on this thread in April and went wandering on my merry way back to my little part of RMweb. I missed the post by @Rowsley17D regarding the ModelU lamps. I'd better then bring you up to speed:

 

I found I had four assorted Ratio signal kits of varying ages 95p and £1.35p for example. With the four kits at hand, I was able to assemble 11 signals all told and with Mike, The Stationmaster, we have sorted out all the types that were at Ledbury at one time or another. With the exception of one arm that I didn't have (an alternative was used) and an alternative to one, though replaced by a substitute prototype (just because for variety), I have a full house.

 

One disadvantage of old plastic kits is that the plastic does become brittle, I shall need to source brass ladders from Wizard/MSE as replacements for some that failed rather spectacularly.

 

Here's a photographic essay of how I tackled the job - this is probably the easy bit as I'm sure the mechanical operation of the signals will be far more complex:

 

First job to sort out all the parts available and then reassemble into the different signals. Once done, the first job was to prepare the oil lamps which was done by cutting them off the dolls/posts with their brackets and then removing the brackets. The lenses were drilled out with a small drill (No 68) approx 0.5mm right through to form a backlight at the rear. The base was drilled out using a 1.0mm to take a nano-SMD LED. This was drilled to meet the previously drilled out lens holes:

 

 

The next step was to clean up the arms and spectacles - didn't always quite work out - just lost the one that was then modified to a fixed distant:

 

 

A trial run of a modified Stop signal to a Backing signal with its Theatre box:

 

 

Did some Ground signals while I was at it:

 

 

The fun started glueing some coloured gels to the spectacles. I went for blue rather than green as I was to order some yellow nano-LEDs. The black smudging is some felt-tip that I used to do inside the lens prior to gelling. Had to be careful as I only had superglue that would fix the gel to the plastic:

 

 

Onto next post as I've reached the posting limit ......................

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 6, 2020 by Philou
Error in old prices

[Philou]

............... and the next lot.

 

Here's that same arm all painted up. The painting is pants as I wanted to finish quickly as my proof of concept. I didn't have suitable undercoat for the acrylics so I went for thick, rather than many thin coats, but I was happy with the result:

 

 

................. and a Distant.  The chevrons need working up - its the angles and parallel lines that caught me out:

 

 

I thought I'd try to do a Shunt signal with gels - now that was tiny - but it worked. The white hole is for the fixing pin:

 

 

With a full head of steam I then tackled the ground signals - now weren't tiny, but tiny tiny:

 

 

A bit of painting and decorating:

 

 

.................. and onto the next post .........................

 

[Philou]

These were the arms nearing completion with some black to be done:

 

 

................ and the reverse done. All finished paintwise this time using a Gesso primer and many thin coats using an acrylic thinner. I had used tap water but the second coat partially wiped off the first. With thinners, it all held good:

 

 

Some lights arrived on Saturday. I thought my Ground discs were small, but these were miniscule by comparison:

 

 

And they work. They are yellow and come with a 1Kohm resistor:

 

 

Here it is inside the oil lamp. Due to my limitations in taking photos, the light is brighter than in reality. Nonetheless, the white plastic is quite translucent and it does bleed through - nothing that some black paint won't fix later when the posts are painted and weathered:

 

 

................ another post on its way .............

[Philou]

Here are just two more photos showing the effect with a red/blue spectacle in place. I'm quite happy that as a proof of concept it works. Again the light is brighter in the photo than for real. Here's the 'green':

 

 

............. and the red.

 

 

The next step is to prepare all the lights with their resistors and then decorate the signals with at least an undercoat and then light them up. The hardest part thereafter will be doing the mechanics.

 

Overall I'm feeling definitely chuffed (sorry) as the 11 signals plus 5 ground signals have cost me £4 (old stock), the paints I had in stock, and 20 lights and resistors cost me the grand total of £16 (p&p included) to here in France.

 

Now, to find some quick and dirty way to make them operate and not pull them apart ............................

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

[Philou]

OK, I had a couple of hours free after lunch and I've soldered all the resistors to the lights. They all work! They don't all fit into the pre-drilled holes, probably because I did them in separate batches and didn't use the same drill twice. It'll be a simple case of opening up on an individual basis. Note to myself: when placing the LEDs in the oil-lamp 1) there is a front and a back to the LEDs so the stronger light towards the spectacle 2) make sure not to push the LEDs home as some holes are slightly deeper than others 3) find a way to secure the LEDs in place and plug the bottom hole.

 

Next step will be to decorate the posts and to get them to work mechanically. This may need to wait a while as I now need to source some suitable steel/nickel wire. A pair of parallel pliers might come in handy too.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Philou]

Time being short with the grandchildren (homework!) the only thing I've been able to do is stick one LED in its oil lamp and then stick that back to the post. Without thinking through of what might happen (wise after the fact - are we not?) I cut off a little pip that attached the lamp to the post to ensure that the lamp had a greater area to glue to the post. Ah, no. It means that the lamp is not centred in the lens and there has to be greater movement in the arm to allow the blue/green lens to move in front of the lamp - rats. On the positive side, painting the lamp with a couple of layers of black acrylic stops any bleed.

 

The wires have been superglued to the post and with painting of the post, they should 'disappear'. I'll continue building it, it'll be the prototype! It's fortunate that it's a signal that won't be seen from the front anyway (but not a reason for which it shouldn't have been done correctly).

 

I'll post up a photo next time.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

PS: I hope Captain Kernow won't mind me hijacking what was his thread - I never thought to ask!

Edited May 13, 2020 by Philou

[Philou]

Here's the offending oil lamp in place and affixed to the post. Whilst I was at it, I painted the post and then a dirty wash to calm it all down. I have a small platform to fix to the post, but I wonder if I should put it on as the lamp-man has only to clamber up and then back down. The ladder is one of the fragile ones that has fractured and I shall need to get a replacement from Wizard/MSE, but I do have the hoop!

 

Can I ask Mike, The Stationmaster, how far up the post from the base does the black paint go and how far down from the signal arm does the platform sit?

 

The wires do 'disappear' with painting and from a normal viewing distance can no longer be seen. Ignore the bright pin-head, it was only used to hold the arm temporarily in place for the photo. The power to the LED has been dimmed since an earlier posting above as it has its resistor in place and the transformer was set to about 1.5v:

 

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

 

 

[Philou]

I may have answered my own questions as I started another signal today, this time a fixed distance having made use of an arm that - er - lost its spectacle plate due to - er - me. The signal post was a round one and the platform for this one seemed to fit naturally at 20mm (5ft) below the pivot. So for me, 20mm it is.

 

The base on this one was already pre-coloured in black plastic and this measured in at 12mm (3ft). So unless otherwise told, I shall paint the black 12mm up from the base.

 

This signal will not have a movable arm due to it being 'fixed' and I had already cut out and placed a yellow lens over the oil lamp. Here it is (lit) prior to painting:

 

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[The Stationmaster]

On 14/05/2020 at 18:30, Philou said:

Here's the offending oil lamp in place and affixed to the post. Whilst I was at it, I painted the post and then a dirty wash to calm it all down. I have a small platform to fix to the post, but I wonder if I should put it on as the lamp-man has only to clamber up and then back down. The ladder is one of the fragile ones that has fractured and I shall need to get a replacement from Wizard/MSE, but I do have the hoop!

 

Can I ask Mike, The Stationmaster, how far up the post from the base does the black paint go and how far down from the signal arm does the platform sit?

 

The wires do 'disappear' with painting and from a normal viewing distance can no longer be seen. Ignore the bright pin-head, it was only used to hold the arm temporarily in place for the photo. The power to the LED has been dimmed since an earlier posting above as it has its resistor in place and the transformer was set to about 1.5v:

 

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

 

 

The black area on the post provided by Ratio is as near correct as you can get Phillip because Roger measured various signals and used photos when the tooling was being developed.   I can't find a dimensioned xdrawing for teh position of the landing but looking at numerous photos which included objects with known dimensions I recjkon about 4'6" - 5ft below the arm pivot with the latter being the more likely.

 

As an aside why on earh they used landings on straight post signals I have never been able to determine as a simple safety loop at the top of the ladder always felt considerably safer to me because you could jam t your back end against the safety loop and happily use both hands.  The landings always felt less secure because the handrails were below waist level.