East Barnet Joint Stock - a workbench

[Chas Levin]

4 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Chas,

the only reason why I thought the "adjustable" mounts might be omitted to make space for the fixed type is that, AFAIK, there has been no feedback on their use - good or bad. As they need careful assembly, I wonder if anyone has ever used them.

Jol

 

Aha: that sounds like a challenge! 

 

In due course, I hope to be among the first to offer feedback on them...

[Chas Levin]

On 08/10/2020 at 15:18, 2750Papyrus said:

Hi Chas,

 

I'm building a D277 brake third and a 6 wheeler to D245...

 

 

I've now filled the under-seat voids at each end of the Mousa GNR resin coach with plastic card offcuts and drilled holes up through the floorpan / underframe assembly to allow four screws for fixing between the two parts: 2750Papyrus (and anyone else building one of these kits), did you do anything like this or did you stay with Bill's suggested single central screw?

I realise I'm probably being over-cautious, but there is already the tiniest amount of bow in the floorpan / underframe assembly and although it sits flat with the slightest pressure (including with nothing more than the weight of the main body, as borne by the bogies) this seems worth doing...

Edited May 7, 2022 by Chas Levin

[jwealleans]

I'd agree with that approach.   I generally use Paxolin for scratchbuilt floors.  On the one occasion I used plastic (a BB kit, as it happen, but brass), it sagged in the middle and I had to put a captive nut so I could bolt up through the middle of the floor as well.

 

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

I'd agree with that approach.   I generally use Paxolin for scratchbuilt floors.  On the one occasion I used plastic (a BB kit, as it happen, but brass), it sagged in the middle and I had to put a captive nut so I could bolt up through the middle of the floor as well.

 

Thanks Jonathan - in this case I should have the best of both worlds: a fixing point in the centre as well as at both ends!

 

Do you have a good source for sensibly sized pieces of Paxolin, in terms of both thickness and sheet sizes?

[jwealleans]

1 hour ago, Chas Levin said:

Do you have a good source for sensibly sized pieces of Paxolin

 

Sorry, no - I bought mine from a Maplins when they were closing down and I stocked up.   I'm sure Eileen's or even Ebay will have what you need.

[Chas Levin]

Some more detail added to the chassis today - springs, ashpan and so forth:

 

Progress on the MJT hornblocks is paused while I await the arrival of a 14BA tap: the instructions ask that one of the 14BA steel bolts to force a thread in the brass footings of the block, to hold the hornblock axle retaining straps, but I found this very difficult to do with such a small bolt, so rather than risk damaging the the assemblies I ordered a tap.

 

Why is it that when you order something for which there's no hurry, it always arrives the next day, but when you order something you want immediately, you discover after ordering it that it won't arrive for at least a week? 

 

Never mind - plenty of other things to be doing in the meantime...

Edited May 7, 2022 by Chas Levin

[Daddyman]

On 07/10/2020 at 22:39, Chas Levin said:

Finally got going again on the Mousa resin GNR coach, cutting out all the windows:

 

The thicker body is one advantage this material has over brass; on the brass coaches I've built, I've been at pains to fix the glazing as closely as possible against the inner surface of the coach sides and the very thinness of the brass means you generally get away with it - or certainly at layout viewing distances. This coach should hopefully have truly flush glazing however...

A  slight misconception here, Chas: glazing isn't flush on wooden-bodied carriages (I assume it's such carriages you're talking about, given your period); it's set back in the bodywork panels, and in fact brass doesn't set the glazing back far enough: that nice Mr Bradwell is trying to persuade me to put a backing sheet between the bodywork and the glazing, which would involve fretting out every window (six per compartment, 8 compartments, 4 carriages). But as he said himself, as the scale depth of this backing sheet would be only 0.6mm, I might get away with not doing it...    

[Chas Levin]

6 hours ago, Daddyman said:

A  slight misconception here, Chas: glazing isn't flush on wooden-bodied carriages (I assume it's such carriages you're talking about, given your period); it's set back in the bodywork panels, and in fact brass doesn't set the glazing back far enough: that nice Mr Bradwell is trying to persuade me to put a backing sheet between the bodywork and the glazing, which would involve fretting out every window (six per compartment, 8 compartments, 4 carriages). But as he said himself, as the scale depth of this backing sheet would be only 0.6mm, I might get away with not doing it...    

Hello, thank you for picking up on this! I wrote in haste - I do indeed know that wooden bodied carriages of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries don't have flush glazing and what I should have said was something like "this coach should hopefully have more accurate looking glazing" than the usual look of brass. I hadn't thought though about the idea that brass doesn't actually allow setting the glazing back far enough... As you say, an even better effect with brass would involve an inner frame or fret, but I'm not sure the extra work involved would be worth the perceived improvement. And I don;t suppose either of us fancies making and installing suitable thickness wooden frets...

[Chas Levin]

Some more bits done on the GNR D129 coach in the last few days - firstly, some ballasting lead shot added to the body and underframe:

 

And the handrail added to the body end:

 

Plus everything's been primed; I used Halfords Plastic Primer, which seems to have taken well enough. Next was a rough all-over coat of Phoenix Precision Teak Basecoat to the outside body sides and to the inside walls (other than the invisible loo ones), followed by a coat of Railmatch LNER Teak to the inner walls:

 

I'm not actually a great fan of this Railmatch Teak as it looks a little 'peachy' to me, plus I've found that Railmatch paint won't take water-based varnish, so I keep this bottle at the back of the drawer for this kind of use, where the shade is non-critical (it'll barely be visible through the windows) and where there won't be any varnish in use.

I say the interior of this coach will 'barely be visible' because I've reluctantly taken the decision not to incorporate lighting in this coach. I'm not confident enough about being able to make the necessary modifications to the structure to accommodate the battery holder without possibly damaging it, knowing too that I'd be unlikely to be able to replace it.

A pity, because lighting is one of my favourite things, but there'll be others .

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Chas Levin

[chris p bacon]

2 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

firstly, some ballasting lead shot added to the body and underframe:

 

What have you fixed the lead shot in with Chas ?

[Chas Levin]

5 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

 

What have you fixed the lead shot in with Chas ?

Morning Dave, the shot in the underframe was done first with superglue to hold it in place, then with araldite, which flows nicely when first mixed and provides an unobtrusively flat(-ish) finish; the shot under the body is just with superglue, because it'll be trapped between the body and chassis.

The instructions note that the finished un-ballasted coach weighs round 80g but that due to the construction of the bogies it shouldn't be given an overall weight of more than about 120g, so I've added a total additional weight of 35g, done by putting the chassis and the body in turn on a digital kitchen scales and adding shot whilst monitoring the weight. Very useful things these little kitchen scales: I think it cost about a tenner and it seems totally reliable (several years old) and very accurate (tested with known weights) .

[chris p bacon]

5 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

the shot in the underframe was done first with superglue to hold it in place, then with araldite, which flows nicely when first mixed and provides an unobtrusively flat(-ish) finish;

 

 Phew....for a few seconds I thought it looked suspiciously like PVA which is a 'no no'

 

Looking good Chas, with a very high standard of workmanship.

[Chas Levin]

1 minute ago, chris p bacon said:

 

 Phew....for a few seconds I thought it looked suspiciously like PVA which is a 'no no'

 

Looking good Chas, with a very high standard of workmanship.

Thanks Dave . And yes, I am well aware of the lead + PVA problem; my inclination is always to 'over-engineer' things like fixings whenever I can (I never wanted to be one of those people who step back from putting up a shelf, turn to the wife for praise and see her laugh as the shelf falls down ) so araldite was always my preference, plus that fact that it flows and fills so well. It didn't seem necessary under the body though, especially as the body and chassis will be detachable.

I first read of the PVA + lead problem in MRJ I think (though I'm sure it had come up elsewhere too) and breathed a sigh of relief that my probably rather OCD-ish distrust of PVA's long-term strength had ruled it out for me for this purpose: scary stuff - side tanks bursting, boilers cracking. I hope this is widely known now and no-one is still using PVA and lead together?

[m.levin]

On 14/05/2020 at 21:56, Chas Levin said:

Here's another pre-grouping wagon I was pleased with and another D&S kit, a GNR 10T Implement wagon ('implement' in this case typically meaning farming implements such as tractors). Jonathan may remember helping me figure out what happens at the ends of the platform, as he was building one too . Paint is Phoenix Precision's GNR Freight Brown, transfers HMRS, chains and fastenings from Cambrian, the ropes are a type used for model ship rigging and the tractor's from Oxford Diecast. The wheels are Romford Lowmac - I tried Gibsons but my trackwork's too coarse. It does sit level by the way - the last picture's got some camera distortion...

 

 

 

 

Hi Chas

 

I don't go on forums much now, but thought I would have a wonder over and see what's happening in the modelling world. I stumbled across you, thinking you might be my long lost dad and wondered where my 38years or birthday and Christmas money was and reading your thread found the flat beds with the tractors on, I recall seeing a photo of a train with these heading to I believe Huddersfield and I believe these were also massy Fergusons, something I really wanted to model, but always thought they might look a bit "train set" looking, but after seeing yours it has inspired me to rethink the idea, only if I could remember where I found the photo. 

Thanks for sharing 

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, m.levin said:

Hi Chas

 

I don't go on forums much now, but thought I would have a wonder over and see what's happening in the modelling world. I stumbled across you, thinking you might be my long lost dad and wondered where my 38years or birthday and Christmas money was and reading your thread found the flat beds with the tractors on, I recall seeing a photo of a train with these heading to I believe Huddersfield and I believe these were also massy Fergusons, something I really wanted to model, but always thought they might look a bit "train set" looking, but after seeing yours it has inspired me to rethink the idea, only if I could remember where I found the photo. 

Thanks for sharing 

My pleasure - I'm glad it brought back memories and also inspired you .

I'm 54, so I could legally be your dad... pretty sure not though, thinking back to where I was at 18 .

The tractor on that wagon wasn't made by me, it's an Oxford Diecast model and after posting those pictures you'll see there was some discussion as to the rather anachronistic combination of that tractor on a Great Northern Railway wagon - it's still on my to-do list to put something a little more suitable on there...

[chris p bacon]

3 hours ago, m.levin said:

wondered where my 38years or birthday and Christmas money was

 

You're looking at it in the thread......money well spent..

 

My dad brought me a soldering iron for my 13th birthday, then gave me several things to fix the following day!...

[m.levin]

3 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

 

You're looking at it in the thread......money well spent..

 

My dad brought me a soldering iron for my 13th birthday, then gave me several things to fix the following day!...

Chas only went out to get a packet of cigarettes, 38yrs of searching and still can’t find any! That’s commitment!! Don’t know why he even went out to get some, doesn’t even smoke! 
 

[Chas Levin]

Today's post brought the BA14 tapper  and although I was complaining a few posts back about having to wait for my new toy, there's nothing so satisfying as getting hold of the right tool to do an awkward job easily and properly:

 

Using the tapper made cutting threads in the holes in the guide feet a breeze; incidentally, if anyone reading this was able to do it as suggested in the instructions, by using the steel 14BA bolts also shown in the photo above to force a thread, I'd be interested to know how it's done. Holding the bolt between my (reasonably slim and very steady) fingers didn't give enough turning force because the bolt head is so small, whilst trying to turn the bolt into the hole using a screwdriver resulted in the bolt repeatedly slipping off the etch surface when any force was applied.

Just to be clear, I'm not criticising MJT's instructions as I know they've been producing these successfully for many more years than I've been working with brass etch, so I imagine there's a trick I just don't know .

But to start at the beginning, here's what you get once the parts have been trimmed from the etch, along with the very clear and concise instructions:

 

Only one operation was a little troublesome: the slots alongside the bearing channel that accommodate the locating tabs of the hornblock cheeks are etched in a sort of double-ended keyhole shape and the middle thinner section needs widening to allow the tab entry. Because one side of each slot is only separated by a thin area of etch from the open gap of the bearing channel, it's frustratingly easy to push the wall of the channel outwards whilst widening the slot - only by a few thou, but enough to affect the easy slide of the bearing. Here's a photo to show what I mean - on the left is one of the pieces as it comes, uncut from the etch, and on the right is one where I've (rather crudely) widened the slots:

 

You can see where the channel sides are bowed out in a very slight curve. Not a huge issue of course, easily filed back, but I did wonder why those slots were not simply etched to a thickness corresponding to the thickness of the tab. It's such a slim, small slot that getting anything in to widen it is tricky and in the end I used a scalpel blade; if there's a trick to this that anyone can advise, please do. And once again, no criticism of MJT intended, as I'm sure there's a right way to do this.

Once over that hurdle however, the two parts fit together beautifully:

 

And after some soldering (done with 188 degree solder, in hopes of avoiding problems when soldering the assembly to the chassis using 145 degree) and some fettling of the channel sides and bearing grooves to give a very smooth sliding fit, here's the finished item, complete with steel bolts holding the retaining straps in place:

 

Such a pity you'll have to turn the loco upside-down to be able to see them!

 

I didn't quite have the energy to deal with soldering them to the chassis, so I swapped to the Mousa GNR coach, which now has a beautiful white ex-works roof prepared for installation in due course:

Edited May 7, 2022 by Chas Levin

[Daddyman]

On 10/11/2020 at 21:16, Chas Levin said:

I did wonder why those slots were not simply etched to a thickness corresponding to the thickness of the tab. It's such a slim, small slot that getting anything in to widen it is tricky and in the end I used a scalpel blade; if there's a trick to this that anyone can advise, please do. And once again, no criticism of MJT intended, as I'm sure there's a right way to do this.

 

Due to tiny inaccuracies in the etching process, artwork has to have all holes and apertures drawn undersize.

 

The downward pressure of a knife blade would have the effect you mention. I always "saw" such slots with a drill bit of the relevant size (hopefully not less than 0.4mm). "Heller quality German HSS-G Micro drill bits X10 various sizes super jobber" available on ebay are strong enough for this if you're careful.  

[Chas Levin]

8 hours ago, Daddyman said:

Due to tiny inaccuracies in the etching process, artwork has to have all holes and apertures drawn undersize.

 

The downward pressure of a knife blade would have the effect you mention. I always "saw" such slots with a drill bit of the relevant size (hopefully not less than 0.4mm). "Heller quality German HSS-G Micro drill bits X10 various sizes super jobber" available on ebay are strong enough for this if you're careful.  

Ahh - thank you David! I have come across mention of etching inaccuracies and things being drawn undersized but I hadn't thought of that being the case here: I'd assumed these slots must have been done this way deliberately and that I had misunderstood the correct use of them, but I understand now.

 

And thank you for the suggestion of using a drill bit to open out the slots: I didn't think of that which I'm sure would work far better - I shall try it next time.

I'll also try some of the Heller drills you've recommended: I have a set of very small drills that I bought at a show stand a few years ago very cheaply... and I'm afraid their quality (and their shockingly inaccurate dimensions) are entirely in accord with their price: you get what you pay for and I shall have to buy some better ones as soon as sufficient of them have broken (even with careful use!) as to leave me without essential sizes .

[Daddyman]

7 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Ahh - thank you David! I have come across mention of etching inaccuracies and things being drawn undersized but I hadn't thought of that being the case here: I'd assumed these slots must have been done this way deliberately and that I had misunderstood the correct use of them, but I understand now.

 

And thank you for the suggestion of using a drill bit to open out the slots: I didn't think of that which I'm sure would work far better - I shall try it next time.

I'll also try some of the Heller drills you've recommended: I have a set of very small drills that I bought at a show stand a few years ago very cheaply... and I'm afraid their quality (and their shockingly inaccurate dimensions) are entirely in accord with their price: you get what you pay for and I shall have to buy some better ones as soon as sufficient of them have broken (even with careful use!) as to leave me without essential sizes .

Happy to help, Chas - and in fact just passing a useful tip that MickLNER gave me for the Heller drills. You get ten in a pack for about £6, and though you sometimes get the odd dud (no good on metal, but OK for plastic), a major plus is that your chuck can roll off the bench and the bit doesn't snap!    

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

It is worth looking at tools from the suppliers to the jewellery trade. I have found Busch drills from Cooksongold very good. Not cheap, but quality stuff never is. 

 

https://www.cooksongold.com/category_select.jsp?query=Drill+Bits&channel=uk&userInput=drill&queryFromSuggest=true

 

Using a good small pillar drill also helps to get good results and avoid breakages, in my case a Proxxon TBM220.

[Chas Levin]

27 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

It is worth looking at tools from the suppliers to the jewellery trade. I have found Busch drills from Cooksongold very good. Not cheap, but quality stuff never is. 

 

https://www.cooksongold.com/category_select.jsp?query=Drill+Bits&channel=uk&userInput=drill&queryFromSuggest=true

 

Using a good small pillar drill also helps to get good results and avoid breakages, in my case a Proxxon TBM220.

Thanks Jol - some interesting things there; I sense some seasonal shopping to be done tomorrow... and no argument about getting what you pay for with tools .

 

I had come across the area of jewellery trade tools when I was looking for some other things but hadn't thought of them for drills.

Amongst the other jewellery tools I picked up were some interesting pliers with wide interleaved curved jaws for forming curves in sheet metal, and some extremely useful tweezers, such as ones with half-cylindrical ends to holding small pieces of tube or rod or screw heads, precision lightweight titanium ones and ones with a retractable sliding clasp that holds the tweezer jaws together to keep something between them and then slides back when you want to release them. Oh - and titanium solder picks: how did I not know about those before? 

[Chas Levin]

Today I thought of a solution to a problem with the C12 that I've been mulling over for a few days whilst working on the GNR coach. Having decided to use the MJT hornblocks partly because they have bearing retaining straps held by bolts which therefore allow dropping out of the axle, I suddenly realised that the etched coil springs, once soldered in place on the frames, would prevent the axle dropping out! Now, I fully realise that I'll probably never need to drop the axle out - in fact, as I'm using Markits wheels, if maintenance or repair were needed in the future it would be easier to take the wheels off, not to mention the fact that the driven axle is fixed and would have to be removed that way anyway... but that's not the point: I like the idea of things being secured by removable bolts rather than soldering and wanted to incorporate it even if it's a little unnecessary .

So, what to do with the coil springs... well, why not solder them only to the retaining straps and not to the frames at all, so that when you undo the 14BA bolts, the retaining straps plus coil springs come away as a single piece?

It took some careful work to avoid solder finding it's way anywhere it shouldn't - a piece of Kapton tape, something I use quite often, helped:

 

And this is the result - a one-piece assembly of retaining strap plus coil spring:

 

I'm quite pleased both with the idea and with how well it worked: it's funny how things percolate at the back of your mind while you're apparently consciously thinking of other things and the answer suddenly pops up quite unexpectedly - in this case, in the bath .

 

Meanwhile, the GNR coach has moved forward too. The last picture of the body showed it with an all-over coat of Phoenix Precision Teak Basecoat - here it is with the next stage of painting:

 

This may look odd - and it's a little unnerving to do - but it works well. It's partly based on a technique I read about on Jonathan Wealleans build thread, of lightening and darkening individual panels before an overall coat of mid-dark teak is applied, but with the added twist of trying to simulate deeper levels of graining and is done using a combination of Phoenix Precision Golden Teak, Weathered Teak and BR Signal Yellow. I tried this on some earlier coaches after spending time looking at photos (and some preserved carriages) and noting the way deeper layers of quite substantial areas of differently tinted graining appeared to show through under the layers nearer the surface, and through the coats of varnish. So if you're a bit startled by this, bear with me through the next photos...

Next, an all-over coat of thinned down Phoenix Precision LNER Coach Teak, thinned about 50:50 using their PQ8 general thinners and applied pretty roughly with a fairly dry comb brush; when it's nearly dry, a few individual panels were then given a second coat, where the graining hadn't integrated well:

 

Next, a fairly even coat of Ronseal Teak Satin varnish, followed by a coat of Ronseal Gloss for the transfers to sit on - all these Ronseals are excellent, water based varnishes with a very reliable self-levelling tendency:

 

As usual, the photos (taken on my phone with highly directional lighting from a bay window) don't quite do it justice and it looks rather better in reality. Transfers next, followed by two coats of Ronseal Matt, which will seal them in and also help blend in the different colour shades further.

The interior has also had some work:

 

The green and red upholstery is a two layer job: first, a dull matt (Humbrol Brick and a military green) followed by a roughly applied watered down gloss (Humbrol bright red and British Racing Green), applied semi dry-brushed and unevenly so that patches of the matt colour below show through, to suggest worn seat coverings. Lastly, a coat of matt varnish. The walls have two different types of Ronseal varnish too: the Third Class teak is the same ronseal Teak Satin as the outside of the carriage and shows the effect of water-based varnish over the Railmatch paint, which I suspect has some kind of silicone or similar additive, causing the varnish to go into patches which in this case adds to the effect; the First Class mahogany walls use Ronseal Rich Walnut varnish (no family connection with Ronseal, just a happy varnisher). The interior colour scheme details are taken from Michael Harris's 1973 "Gresley's Coaches" book.

The underframe is also just about finished, but the bogies are lagging behind as I had to source some 26mm axles: there's no way to adjust the bearing-to-bearing distance and the 25.6 ones I'd intended using gave a rather unacceptable degree of slop...

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

The GNR D129 coach is progressing: bogies now done, underframe too and the body just needs glazing to the toplights and passengers:

 

Transfers are as usual the trusty HMRS Pressfix - I keep meaning to use Methfix as they sit flatter and look just a tiny bit more like real painted lettering but then give in to the convenience of PRessfix and tell myself I'll use Methfix next time .

The bogies have a built-in compensation that I'm hoping will work quite well: the two masked grey plastic areas on top that form rubbing plates under the body are only actually attached to the frames by short and quite slim bars at each end, running parallel to the axles, which allow vertical front-to-back rocking. They take advantage of the flexible nature of the resin to allow the movement; I'm not sure how visible they are in the picture below but if you look carefully you can just see the short beam at the top of the plate and you can also see that the plate is not attached anywhere else around its periphery; I meant to take a photo before painting and forgot:

 

This pleases me both in itself (it's a nice piece of design that uses a characteristic of the medium in that way) and because it's nice to see an advantage to this resin aside from the obvious cosmetic one of crisp detail. I've not found it the easiest stuff to work with - inserting and securing the glazing and the brake gear in particular were a little trying. I've also discovered - as I suspected might be the case - that paint adhesion is not the most robust, when compared to metal or the Airfix type of injection moulded plastic. There had to be some careful touching in after the glazing had been wiggled into place and it was clear that larger areas would have lifted without care. I always follow a fairly comprehensive preparation procedure with any material in terms of cleaning and de-greasing, handling work with latex gloves (previously an unusual thing to be buying, now quite routine of course) and so forth and I think it's to do with the nature of the surface, which has a sort of shiny look and a slightly rubbery feel... Never mind though: all good to go now I'm happy to say .

 

Various aspects of this have taken most of my modelling time this week so the C12 hasn't moved forward a great deal; a little fettling of bearings and the bogie built. I'm hoping to test-run the unpowered chassis over the weekend though...

Edited May 7, 2022 by Chas Levin