East Barnet Joint Stock - a workbench

[Chas Levin]

Close to final assembly now:

 

The matt varnishing of the seats has bloomed rather more noticeably than I'd hoped so that will need some touching in. I'll also try and do something about those windows that are less than cleanly glued. I used a glue I'd never tried before after reading about it on another thread, Micro Krystal Clear and I must say it does what it says on the bottle and dries clear, but stopping it from intruding onto the edges of the panes was still difficult... I wonder whether it might be better disguised as dirt and dust accumulated around the frames....

It performed very well on test running and went very smoothly; it captures the Howlden look very well too.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

After a little fettling, jiggling and sunshine, one finished coach:

 

Generally very pleased with this; the imperfections recede a little once it's put together of course and don't worry me as much. The teak effect has come out quite well, as good as any others I've done so far (and while an improvement over previous jobs would be nice, the absence of backsliding is always welcome!) and it runs very smoothly. The lav windows turned out better than expected through a happy accident: I decided to try plain white Avery-type stationery sticker material, stuck to the inside of the plastic glazing, but was concerned that the glue on the stickers might not have long-term longevity (and a disadvantage of these kits is the very considerable difficulty of removing the roof again) so I tried to apply a little cyano glue around the edges... and of course it immediately sucked across half the pane!  Disaster... or not: I saw that it produced a sort of checkerboard effect, as though tiny alternate squares were darkened. I'm guessing it must be to do with the weave (warp? weft?) of the paper but I quickly applied the cyano to the whole pane to make sure the effect was even and it now looks tolerably like an intentional pattern (whilst also allaying my fears of future detachment!).

 

Onward and upward: I've spent all my modelling time the last few days in the final push to get this coach finished and the LRM C12 is starting to feel a little neglected...

Edited May 7, 2022 by Chas Levin

[2750Papyrus]

Very nice. 

 

I struggled with the windows of my two coaches.  The build up of paint/polish in the frames meant they didn't fit easily and I managed to lose some.  Also my first use of Glue 'n Glaze - though it dries clear, it will leave marks on glazing it touches.  A learning experience - i will do better next time.

[Jol Wilkinson]

I use GS Hypo Cement, which dies clear. I have found that it can also be "dissolved" and removed  with a suitable solvent on a small brush - I normally  use cigarette lighter fluid - so can take care of any excess around window reveals. I got mine from Wizard Models but it is available from various suppliers including Hobbycraft.

[Chas Levin]

10 hours ago, 2750Papyrus said:

Very nice. 

 

I struggled with the windows of my two coaches.  The build up of paint/polish in the frames meant they didn't fit easily and I managed to lose some.  Also my first use of Glue 'n Glaze - though it dries clear, it will leave marks on glazing it touches.  A learning experience - i will do better next time.

Thanks. Yes, a learning experience: I hadn't thought about the fact that although it dries clear, it would still as you say leave marks on the glazing and while they're less prominent than if they were white, they're far from invisible. I think I just about got away with it though, certainly a layout viewing distance: I hope you feel the same about yours?

I agree about the build-up of paint around the frames, but also, the insides of the frames were a little uneven - no ciritcism of the kit quality as I think it's unavoidable with this material - which meant that the paint build-up, though thin, was uneven too whcih also doesn't help.

I haven't tried Glue'n Glaze so I'll give that a look too; did you use the glazing that came with the kit?

Edited November 25, 2020 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

3 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

I use GS Hypo Cement, which dies clear. I have found that it can also be "dissolved" and removed  with a suitable solvent on a small brush - I normally  use cigarette lighter fluid - so can take care of any excess around window reveals. I got mine from Wizard Models but it is available from various suppliers including Hobbycraft.

Thanks Jol, that's very interesting and I shall get some and try it out.

The instructions on the Micro Krystal Clear say that once cured it's permanent but that it can be removed before it's fully cured with water, so I tried that on a couple of panes during the glazing process, but even the tiniest amount of water produced a small pool of cloudy (i.e. very watered down) glue and with visions of it leaving unpredictable, awkward and possibly widespread marks I abandoned the atempt.

Being able to remove it with a solvent once everything's dried and settled down sounds much more useful, though I'd assume that great care must be used to avoid affecting neighbouring paintwork with the solvent.

Some of the drills you recommended arrived the other day by the way and look really excellent .

[Jol Wilkinson]

54 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Thanks Jol, that's very interesting and I shall get some and try it out.

The instructions on the Micro Krystal Clear say that once cured it's permanent but that it can be removed before it's fully cured with water, so I tried that on a couple of panes during the glazing process, but even the tiniest amount of water produced a small pool of cloudy (i.e. very watered down) glue and with visions of it leaving unpredictable, awkward and possibly widespread marks I abandoned the atempt.

Being able to remove it with a solvent once everything's dried and settled down sounds much more useful, though I'd assume that great care must be used to avoid affecting neighbouring paintwork with the solvent.

Some of the drills you recommended arrived the other day by the way and look really excellent .

Chas,

 

I use airbrush sprayed cellulose for my carriages with Humbrol or PPP enamel for window surrounds, lining, etc. The ciggy lighter fluid doesn't affect this, although it is usually some time after I do the painting and lining before I apply the glazing, so the enamels have dried thoroughly.

 

Jol

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Chas,

 

I use airbrush sprayed cellulose for my carriages with Humbrol or PPP enamel for window surrounds, lining, etc. The ciggy lighter fluid doesn't affect this, although it is usually some time after I do the painting and lining before I apply the glazing, so the enamels have dried thoroughly.

 

Jol

Oh Ok, thank you Jol - my teak carriages are all PPP enamel on the outside so I should be OK too: I haven't yet learned which solvents and other substances the various different types of paint will or won't tolerate, but I've just started reading Ian Rathbone's 'Painting & Lining' in an effort to up my game in that area, so I'll hopefully emerge from the other end of it a little better informed .

[Daddyman]

1 hour ago, Chas Levin said:

I've just started reading Ian Rathbone's 'Painting & Lining' in an effort to up my game in that area, so I'll hopefully emerge from the other end of it a little better informed .

Watch the video [Right Track 3] too if you can get hold of it - there are 20 seconds or so where Ian is spraying a V2 cab side, with the model perfectly lit so that you can see how he puts the paint on. All you ever need to know about painting at IP in a few seconds.  

Edited November 25, 2020 by Daddyman

[Chas Levin]

22 minutes ago, Daddyman said:

Watch the video [Right Track 3] too if you can get hold of it - there are 20 seconds or so where Ian is spraying a V2 cab side, with the model perfectly lit so that you can see how he puts the paint on. All you ever need to know about painting at IP in a few seconds.  

Thanks David, I'll look that out; hopefully it made it onto DVD?

Though even if it didn't, if it's really worthwhile then getting it transferred isn't that expensive.

I did that a while back with the film of 'Mike Sharman's Victorian Railway' on a Railscale VHS that as far as I could find out never went to DVD; got it done in a local photo developing shop for £20 and made a cover using colour photocopies of the VHS box. I have plans to build a few Victorian locos and some rolling stock, so the film provided some very interesting viewing, plus he was a very engaging demonstrator. If you haven't seen it, the whole 20 minutes or so is still up on YouTube:

Anyway, bit of a digression: yes, I can quite believe that a mere 20 seconds or so is enough to communicate secrets of painting that might take hundreds of pages of reading and/or hours of practice - 'a picture (film) speaks a thousand words', as they say .

[Daddyman]

1 hour ago, Chas Levin said:

Thanks David, I'll look that out; hopefully it made it onto DVD?

It was out on DVD, yes (sorry - I still always call everything a "video"!). They were discontinued, and the publisher has indicated they won't re-run them. Some of them were on youtube for a while, but don't seem to be any more. And someone on the S4 forum had a way of downloading them (though it didn't work for me). 

[Jon4470]

I think that the Right Track videos maybe on the Missenden Modellers web site. They were there for the virtual weekend a few weeks back.

 

Jon

[Chas Levin]

43 minutes ago, Daddyman said:

It was out on DVD, yes (sorry - I still always call everything a "video"!). They were discontinued, and the publisher has indicated they won't re-run them. Some of them were on youtube for a while, but don't seem to be any more. And someone on the S4 forum had a way of downloading them (though it didn't work for me). 

Haha - we do that too, use the word 'video', and 'tape' too: good for us, keeping the old traditions alive

[Chas Levin]

15 minutes ago, Jon4470 said:

I think that the Right Track videos maybe on the Missenden Modellers web site. They were there for the virtual weekend a few weeks back.

 

Jon

Thanks Jon, I'll have a look... Wow - interesting site, just having a look now...

Edited November 25, 2020 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

On 25/11/2020 at 17:45, Daddyman said:

Watch the video [Right Track 3] too if you can get hold of it - there are 20 seconds or so where Ian is spraying a V2 cab side, with the model perfectly lit so that you can see how he puts the paint on. All you ever need to know about painting at IP in a few seconds.  

 

On 25/11/2020 at 19:57, Jon4470 said:

I think that the Right Track videos maybe on the Missenden Modellers web site. They were there for the virtual weekend a few weeks back.

 

Jon

Thank you so much David and Jon for the suggestion of watching these films and for pointing me to the Missenden site: I watched them all today and they are really fascinating, informative and inspiring: Ian really knows his subject!

I saw exactly the section you single out David, where he sprays the V2 and I understand exactly what you mean about how those few seconds convey a huge amount of information about the technique.

Amongst other things I learnt today, I've clearly been spraying from too far away, moving too slowly, spraying too thickly and with too many over-passes. And the use of a hair-dryer to warm the model not just before but during sparying of primer is very interesting.

His Lining tutorials are also very interesting; I shall continue reading the book but I already feel much more in touch with his methods through having watched the films.

[Jon4470]

40 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

 

Thank you so much David and Jon for the suggestion of watching these films and for pointing me to the Missenden site: I watched them all today and they are really fascinating, informative and inspiring: Ian really knows his subject!

I saw exactly the section you single out David, where he sprays the V2 and I understand exactly what you mean about how those few seconds convey a huge amount of information about the technique.

Amongst other things I learnt today, I've clearly been spraying from too far away, moving too slowly, spraying too thickly and with too many over-passes. And the use of a hair-dryer to warm the model not just before but during sparying of primer is very interesting.

His Lining tutorials are also very interesting; I shall continue reading the book but I already feel much more in touch with his methods through having watched the films.

 

Glad you enjoyed the films.

 

I went to the Missenden Autumn weekend a couple of years ago. Ian was the tutor for the painting and lining. Similar to the film, he took a body shell that I was spraying and showed me how he did it.....I learnt so much in 30 seconds!

 

He also showed me how to use a bow pen....I’m still hit and miss - but that is mainly through lack of practice ( and not paying enough attention to the quality of the paint).

 

There is nothing quite like being shown what to do.

 

Jon

[Daddyman]

10 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

 

Thank you so much David and Jon for the suggestion of watching these films and for pointing me to the Missenden site: I watched them all today and they are really fascinating, informative and inspiring: Ian really knows his subject!

I saw exactly the section you single out David, where he sprays the V2 and I understand exactly what you mean about how those few seconds convey a huge amount of information about the technique.

Amongst other things I learnt today, I've clearly been spraying from too far away, moving too slowly, spraying too thickly and with too many over-passes. And the use of a hair-dryer to warm the model not just before but during sparying of primer is very interesting.

His Lining tutorials are also very interesting; I shall continue reading the book but I already feel much more in touch with his methods through having watched the films.

Glad it was helpful. Another useful tip is (this time from the book): after spraying etching primer (he gives the formula for mixing PP primer, PP thinners and and cellulose thinners in the book), and giving it the requisite time to set, brush the model over with the type of brush used for full-size house decorating - a one- or two-inch one. This smooths any roughness out of the primer and ensures a smooth base on which to apply other paint. 

 

There's so much useful information in the book that one can forget things - I forgot the trick above for a long time; I now read the book every year or so. 

 

Don't be worried about moving too slowly. When I (too) was at Missenden with Ian a few years back, the only way I could imitate what Ian was doing was by spraying very little paint very slowly. You can get faster later. Moving slowly (i.e. dwelling too long) will only be a problem if the paint is too thin or too thick. Spraying from too far away 

and with paint which is too thick, on the other hand, are definitely things to be avoided. 

Edited November 27, 2020 by Daddyman

[Daddyman]

Duplicate post

Edited November 28, 2020 by Daddyman

[Chas Levin]

On 26/11/2020 at 22:15, Jon4470 said:

 

Glad you enjoyed the films.

 

I went to the Missenden Autumn weekend a couple of years ago. Ian was the tutor for the painting and lining. Similar to the film, he took a body shell that I was spraying and showed me how he did it.....I learnt so much in 30 seconds!

 

He also showed me how to use a bow pen....I’m still hit and miss - but that is mainly through lack of practice ( and not paying enough attention to the quality of the paint).

 

There is nothing quite like being shown what to do.

 

Jon

I've only lined a couple of coaches and I used an old bow pen that was from my late father's engineering draughtsman tool set, lovely looking nickel plated thing. It was a bit hefty when complete with the quite long handle section, so I substituted a smaller homemade wooden one.

To my amazement, it worked very well and easily first time and the irregularities and blemishes in the lining I've done to date were entirely down to my haste and carelessness: I think I was so surprised that it worked that I pushed on a little too fast, fearing that the magic might suddenly evaporate!!

I plan to take more care with the next lining job, needless to say...

And yes, nothing like being shown, which is another way in which the internet can be so useful!

Edited May 7, 2022 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

8 hours ago, Daddyman said:

Glad it was helpful. Another useful tip is (this time from the book): after spraying etching primer (he gives the formula for mixing PP primer, PP thinners and and cellulose thinners in the book), and giving it the requisite time to set, brush the model over with the type of brush used for full-size house decorating - a one- or two-inch one. This smooths any roughness out of the primer and ensures a smooth base on which to apply other paint. 

 

There's so much useful information in the book that one can forget things - I forgot the trick above for a long time; I now read the book every year or so. 

 

Don't be worried about moving too slowly. When I (too) was at Missenden with Ian a few years back, the only way I could imitate what Ian was doing was by spraying very little paint very slowly. You can get faster later. Moving slowly (i.e. dwelling too long) will only be a problem if the paint is too thin or too thick. Too far away 

 

Yes, use of a small domestic paint brush was also a very interesting tip and one I noted in the priming film - I haven't yet reached that bit in the book though.

I think books like Ian's and also Iain Rice's books on loco construction are fascinating to read from cover to cover but as you say, they then become reference books and they're so packed with information that regular re-readings are essential to anyone with normal memory capacity.

As to moving too slowly during spraying, I do intend to try moving at the sort of speed Ian does, because probably my major spraying fault is lingering too long and depositing too much paint, which comes from a fear of not achieving sufficient coverage, but I now realise I've been hugely over-compensating and that perfectly functional coverage is clearly achievable with far less paint - which means crisper detail, something I would like to achieve...

[Chas Levin]

I posted some photos of the GND D129 coach on Tony Wright's thread on here and Graeme King very kindly pointed out that I'd missed the correct colour for the cornice / gutter strip of the roof edges; I don't know how I came to miss that (it's not exactly a hidden detail!) and I then also realised I'd made the same error on the Mike Trice ECJS six-wheel brake: shocking .

Here are both carriages, with the offending areas re-painted as teak:

 

And while I had the six-wheeler out I took a photo of the underside, showing the Brassmasters etched Cleminson Truck:

 

I would recommend this kit very highly - it does exactly what it says on the tin and works perfectly! The original design is of course from the prototype which was very well designed in the first place and the BM kit is a faithful reproduction of that design. It's quite easy to build, adjustable, robust and most importantly it allows this coach - which is a very narrow frame - to go round my layout's very sharp curves. It did need some careful removal of material from the inside of the solebars towards each corner, where the outer corners of the pivoting Cleminson assemblies move outwards - you can see this quite clearly on the insides of each end of the solebar nearer the camera.

I thought that was quite good a proof-of-concept actually: if it could be made to work with such a relatively narrow underframe and very sharp curves, then it should work quite happily on many others and I have some in stock now, for the other six-wheelers yet to be built .

Edited May 7, 2022 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

First steps in testing the C12 chassis:

 

The footplate is only perched on top, the wheels are just a test set and without the compensating beam it's not stting as it should, but it's good to see it taking shape .

Edited May 7, 2022 by Chas Levin

[2750Papyrus]

Chas, I like the lining on the ECJS 6 wheeler.  I have never tried lining a model but have one of Graeme's 12 wheeled clerestories nearing completion, which really should be lined.  Plse did you follow the Mike Trice videos?

[Chas Levin]

2 hours ago, 2750Papyrus said:

Chas, I like the lining on the ECJS 6 wheeler.  I have never tried lining a model but have one of Graeme's 12 wheeled clerestories nearing completion, which really should be lined.  Plse did you follow the Mike Trice videos?

Thank you . It was my first attempt at lining so for that reason alone I was quite pleased with it at the time but I've just been reading in Ian Rathbone's book about how to correct and re-shape lining while - and shortly after - you're doing it and I wish I'd known those techniques before this example had been encased in varnish. It was done using the lining pen shown a few posts back and some of the faults I mentioned there can be seen, such as slightly blobbed starts and ends to lines: I now know what causes that and how to correct it.

(I think though that the woodwork effect came out quite well, though the overall hue sometimes looks to me more like oak than teak - I was aiming for very old teak that had been in and out of the workshops and re-finished numerous times...).

My second attempt at lining was the ECJS 45' bogie brake shown on page 1 of this thread - better, but I hope to be able to do far better still on my next lining job.

One thing I found a little difficult when lining the 6-wheeler is that there were quite a few edges and lines that should be dead straight and/or flat but aren't, due to aspects of the material and the manufacturing process: I did try some gentle and cautious re-shaping of both the 3D plastic and the resin in warm-to-hot water of various temperatures, but the results were not great.

No, I didn't follow Mike's videos - I'm assuming you mean for lining? I read up on a lot of different threads on here and other forums which contained advice, tips and examples, compiling all the bits of text and photos that I thought would be useful into a Word document ( which is what I always do when researching something, updating the document when I find new material; I also include the date in the document title and change that too, when new material's added, to make locating the latest version easy). Mind you, in this case I could have saved myself a lot of time by reading Mr Rathbone's book first, but I don't think I'd heard of hime at that point.

I didn't realise Graeme had made kits available of the 12-wheel clerestory - I'm guessing this is the one that featured on his LNER Forum thread a while back? I followed his design and build of his prototype but I must have missed where he reached the point of kits being done: are they available currently? And could we please see a picture of your build, if you feel that it's ready for public viewing?

[2750Papyrus]

Thanks for your detailed reply on lining. 

 

Yes, the 12 wheeler is one of those featured on the LNER forum.  I'm not quite ready to post a photo yet but can confirm that I have enjoyed the build, even if it has been time consuming.  My eyes will only focus close-up for about 20 minutes and I seem to have "clumsy" days when it is best to put the model aside!  

 

May I suggest you drop Graeme a pm to check availability?