Help & ideas please

[Mark1484]

Hello Everybody,

 

As a complete novice and first time poster please be gentle!

 

I have always had a love model railways and trains in general and was lucky enough to have a big loft layout that my father built me when i was a child. Now as an adult with 2 young children I have the urge to start building a model railway for myself. 

 

Having recently moved house, i have found some left over hardboard and timber and have built a base measuring 8ft 4in x 2ft pictures attached. I intend to keep the layout in the garage.

 

My first thoughts would be to have a station layout or a yard of some sort (end to end). I have being buying locos and rolling stock for quite some time and have a rather large collection of BR blue diesels and passenger carriages(OO Gauge) plus other bits and pieces/track. I have one Hornby controller (DC) and would like to keep costs low if possible.

 

My knowledge of electrics are poor and this is my biggest worry. Laying of track i feel quite comfortable with and adding buildings etc will be done once the track is up and running.

 

I welcome any ideas or designs you may have and please accept my thanks for any advice given.

 

Regards,

 

Mark from Manchester

Edited May 5, 2020 by Mark1484

[cypherman]

Hi Mark,

I think you need to brace your boards a bit more to stop the twisting. Have you decided how you are going to mount your boards. Trestle legs or perhaps on an old table.

As for the electrics. We would need to see some sort of track plan to give you advice on where to put the wiring. Also do you intend to electrify your points or use the hand of god.

I know you have a DC controller but are you going to go for DC or DCC control. For  a beginner I would recommend DC, But that's just a personal preference. Depending how complicated your track plan is you may require more than one controller.

Edited May 6, 2020 by cypherman

[Mark1484]

10 minutes ago, cypherman said:

Hi Mark,

I think you need to brace your boards a bit more to stop the twisting. Have you decided how you are going to mount your boards. Trestle legs or perhaps on an old table.

As for the electrics. We would need to see some sort of track plan to give you advice on where to put the wiring. Also do you intend to electrify your points or use the hand of god.

I know you have a DC controller but are you going to go for DC or DCC control. For  a beginner I would recommend DC, But that's just a personal preference. Depending how complicated your track plan is you may require more than one controller.

Hi and thanks for the reply!

 

Yes I will be bracing the boards to stop twisting. Legs, probably trestle once I’ve found something suitable.

 

Points, hand of God.

 

I’m waiting on a delivery of track and points. I have a had full of track/points but not enough yet. The underlay has arrived.

 

DC for this layout as all of my locos are DC (some are DCC ready but no chips). 
 

Thanks again 

[Philou]

Hello Mark and welcome to the RMweb collective. Out of interest, you say that you've used hardboard. Are you sure as from the photos it looks more like plywood, hardboard = bad, plywood = better. As cypherman says, you need to look at the supports you've used. It's more usual to make a frame all around (more usually in 2"x1" or 50mmx25mm) and then bracing at intervals in between - that is running at right angles to the framing.

 

As cypherman has said, a plan, or an idea of what you should like to achieve would help. Also, a plan would identify where pointwork would go, for if you should want to electrify them, then you could avoid putting the bracing underneath the points (most of us have been there, done that!).

 

Right. Plan: looking at the size of the board, you will not be able to have a roundy-roundy as will not get curves in within the 2ft. It looks to be an end-to-end, presumably station-to-fiddle/storage yard.

 

Top tip for you, the more points you have, the more space they eat up. For your first layout, I should keep it fairly simple and allow 10/12" (300mm) per coach and loco in your design.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

PS: I see you have replied whilst I was writing - it may be things have been duplicated!!

[cypherman]

Hi all again.

One point I should have mentioned is do not forget that as this is not going to be a run round layout the fiddle yard needs to be  long enough to accept the longest train you want to run whilst clearing the points. This is also applicable to the visual area. Now the fiddle yard does not have to take up the whole of the second part of the board. Something similar to this layout being sold on that web site.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stanton-Yard-Model-Railway-Layout-with-Legs-6-5-Foot-x-28-OO-Gauge-DC-or-DCC/273294528287?hash=item3fa19f8f1f:g:X1AAAOSwv0tVWJot

[brossard]

Unless you intend to build something experimental as a prelude to something more permanent I wouldn't use wood scraps.  You do need to beef up the stiffness, I use 4" wide ply strips as sides.

 

 

This is a short board. 

 

 

Some boards joined up.

 

John

Edited May 6, 2020 by brossard

[Mark1484]

Thanks all,

 

Track and points are on order. 
 

Bracking has been added.

 

Fiddle yard and Station is what I had in mind at the start as I understand the width limitations.

 

Legs are being sourced as we speak!

[Mark1484]

Hi All,

 

I have found the attached track plan which I plan to replicate with maybe another siding or two.

 

The controller I have (R8250 Hornby DC type) has failed so I have two used on order (R265s).

I thought the R8250 was a rather cheap and nasty controller. 

 

2 foldable tables have been acquired so the layout is up, level and ready.

 

regards,

 

Mark

[The Johnster]

I'm probably trying to teach granny to suck eggs, but if 8'4"x2' is the limit, where does the fiddle yard go on that plan?   I have just had a squiz at 'FreeTrackPlan.com', and there is some intruiging stuff on there, but they all seem to be sans fiddle yard; where do the trains come from, or go back to?  8' is very short for an end to end including the fiddle yard and I think you need to extend by at least 4 feet, the length of your longest complete train, and probably more, to accommodate it off-scene in the fy.  If you do not have this space in your garage, it is time for a rethink.  You need to be looking at '4 feet wide' layouts on that site, meaning 4' long not wide.  Blue era diesels and passenger stock are just about squeezable on such a layout, thinking of some remote Scottish prototypes where 2 or 3 coaches were not unusual.  I know this is partly for the anklebiters and scale modelling is not the first priority, but you are probably giving your anklebiters food, which means they'll grow up and want more scale!  The answer is of course not to feed them but nobody ever takes this advice.  

 

No railway modeller, ever, not even Pete Waterman, has ever had enough room to build the layout he/she/they want.  Anywhere.  Ever.  It's probably not what you want to hear but it is the biggest problem we all face and trying to cram too much in is the most common newbie mistake.  There are ways of saving space, though, often not much space but it becomes cumulative.  In the plan you show, dispensing with the loco release xover will save you about 18".  Loco and 3 coaches arrive, loco is electrically isolated (I'll come back to this), second loco emerges from fy or sidings and couples to other end of train, first loco is then uncoupled.  At departure time, the second loco and train leave for the fiddle yard (rest of BR) or it moves the coaches to another platform or sidings.  The first loco can now escape, and can be substituted at the other end of the train to work back whence it came, or used for something else, or lay over to pick up the next train to arrive. 

 

In DC control, locos can be isolated to be parked on isolating sections of track.  In this example, the final section of track at the buffer stop end is isolated from it's adjoining piece by an isolating plastic joiner on one side.  A wire with an on-off switch connects it to the isolated section next to the buffer stop, which is as long as your longest loco.  The switch turns power to this section on or off whatever the position of your controller, so the loco can be 'parked' there.  This system may well come in handy if you have to reduce the size of your layout.  A similar setup but without the switch can be used as an 'auto stop' in your fy.

 

Depending on how many fy roads you need, which is basically the same as the number of trains you want to run, you may be able to adopt cypherman's arrangement of a siding serving some sort of facility in front of the fy, but the backscene to it must be kept low for good fy access.  Leave sufficient room between fy roads to be able to pick stock up when you need to or see to derailments.  Scottish prototypes make me think in terms of fishing quays.

 

                                                             

[Mark1484]

18 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I'm probably trying to teach granny to suck eggs, but if 8'4"x2' is the limit, where does the fiddle yard go on that plan?   I have just had a squiz at 'FreeTrackPlan.com', and there is some intruiging stuff on there, but they all seem to be sans fiddle yard; where do the trains come from, or go back to?  8' is very short for an end to end including the fiddle yard and I think you need to extend by at least 4 feet, the length of your longest complete train, and probably more, to accommodate it off-scene in the fy.  If you do not have this space in your garage, it is time for a rethink.  You need to be looking at '4 feet wide' layouts on that site, meaning 4' long not wide.  Blue era diesels and passenger stock are just about squeezable on such a layout, thinking of some remote Scottish prototypes where 2 or 3 coaches were not unusual.  I know this is partly for the anklebiters and scale modelling is not the first priority, but you are probably giving your anklebiters food, which means they'll grow up and want more scale!  The answer is of course not to feed them but nobody ever takes this advice.  

 

No railway modeller, ever, not even Pete Waterman, has ever had enough room to build the layout he/she/they want.  Anywhere.  Ever.  It's probably not what you want to hear but it is the biggest problem we all face and trying to cram too much in is the most common newbie mistake.  There are ways of saving space, though, often not much space but it becomes cumulative.  In the plan you show, dispensing with the loco release xover will save you about 18".  Loco and 3 coaches arrive, loco is electrically isolated (I'll come back to this), second loco emerges from fy or sidings and couples to other end of train, first loco is then uncoupled.  At departure time, the second loco and train leave for the fiddle yard (rest of BR) or it moves the coaches to another platform or sidings.  The first loco can now escape, and can be substituted at the other end of the train to work back whence it came, or used for something else, or lay over to pick up the next train to arrive. 

 

In DC control, locos can be isolated to be parked on isolating sections of track.  In this example, the final section of track at the buffer stop end is isolated from it's adjoining piece by an isolating plastic joiner on one side.  A wire with an on-off switch connects it to the isolated section next to the buffer stop, which is as long as your longest loco.  The switch turns power to this section on or off whatever the position of your controller, so the loco can be 'parked' there.  This system may well come in handy if you have to reduce the size of your layout.  A similar setup but without the switch can be used as an 'auto stop' in your fy.

 

Depending on how many fy roads you need, which is basically the same as the number of trains you want to run, you may be able to adopt cypherman's arrangement of a siding serving some sort of facility in front of the fy, but the backscene to it must be kept low for good fy access.  Leave sufficient room between fy roads to be able to pick stock up when you need to or see to derailments.  Scottish prototypes make me think in terms of fishing quays.

 

                                                             

Hi Johnster,

 

Many thanks the help and advice.

 

I will have a look and see if the space can be made to accommodate more length, it may have to be a removable piece.

 

I'll investigate the isolation track.

 

Some track has arrived along with a working controller. Some of the track/points are in need of a good clean so that will keep me busy.

 

Regards,

 

Mark

[The Johnster]

You can buy 'isolation track' sections but it is very easy to make one yourself using one half of the power clip connectors with an on-off switch; just use a plastic isolating rail connecter or leave a gap.  If you can solder, so much the better; solder the wires to the outside edge of the rail so that the solder does not interfere with the wheels.  

 

If a removable section is to be used,  it is probably better to have it in the fiddle yard where there are no delicate models to be damaged when you remove it.  You will need to devise a means of electrical contact, either something like hi-fi phone or headphone cable plugs and sockets, metal contacts that the removable board connects with, or steel door bolts which can be used to align the tracks and make electrical contact; the small stainless steel ones for cupboard doors are fine for this so long as they are not part of the load bearing.  Keep the removable part as lightweight as you can, and as small as you can even if this means making it in 2 sections as it will otherwise be heavy and cumbersome, and more so after an operating session if you are in a hurry to clear the space for something else.

 

[Mark1484]

Hi Guys,

 

Quick update.

 

I’ve started to play around with the track plan and this is plan A.

 

Thoughts and comments welcome.

 

[The Johnster]

If the two tracks to the left of the top picture are the ones that go off-scene to the fiddle yard board as double track separate up and down roads, how does incoming traffic (we 'drive on the left' in the UK) access the main platform road?  Let's number these roads left to right' If no.2 is an up and down bidirectional single running road accessing the fiddle yard (rest of the world) up and down road, all is well.  If you want up and down separate roads, you need a facing crossover almost immedieately at the bottom of the photo from 1 to 2, or to rethink the station 'throat'.  As things stand, you will not be able to have simultaneous arrivals and departures from your main island platform.  Maybe have a look at the well known 'Minories' track plan, a proven classic, and adapt from that for the extra platforms and sidings. 

 

Otherwise I don't see anything about this that doesn't work or looks wildly unprototypical, and the power feeds will work in those positions, but you need another one so that you can drive to or from no.2 road to or from the main platform left hand face or the run around loop; Minories will solve this issue.

 

If it were me, and assuming operating/viewing is done from the left side of the boards in the top photo, I would try to induce a slight curvature away from the viewing position.  This will need the inner rail of the slightly curved sections to be trimmed to fit with a Xuron rail cutter or minidrill slitting dics, and the resulting burr filed off to accept the rail joiner and ensure a smooth joint, but the finished appearance will be worth the effort.  It will create an optical illusion of more space and remove the slightly 'signal box diagram' feel of the plan.  

 

The track plan is not unlike Bute Road, the Taff Vale Railway's Cardiff terminus, as rebuilt by the GW after grouping and prior to 'rationalisation' in 1967.  This very versatile plan for a station that was very busy in peak periods allowed locos to access a servicing from both platforms while the other had a movement in progress , stock to be run around both in the main platform and in carriage sidings, and simultaneous arrivals and departures.  Your dead straight lines are very similar to it.  Your layout has a lot of such operating potential.

 

[Mark1484]

Yes, the two lines on the left would go to the fiddle yard and be the two 'main lines' coming in to the layout.

 

I have played around with it and put the cross over in as you suggested, I have also taken a little length out of the station lanes which gives the layout a more balanced feel in my opinion.

I would also like to introduce another siding on the bottom left, which could be for loco storage/fuelling/washing etc.

 

I have some more points/track on order and I've treated myself to a DMU!

 

Thanks again for the advice and I will update again soon. I will research the layouts you mention as I'm sure they will be of interest.

 

Regards

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

[Mark1484]

My next questions will be about electrics. Where to put the power for the two controllers and also isolation points etc.

plan 2.docx

[Mark1484]

[The Johnster]

Using the photo as reference, feed 1 goes on the down (approach road, it must come from London) between the trailing crossover by the wire brush, feed 2 on the up between the two lh turnouts in front of the Class 25.  Feed 3 goes between the rh turnouts in the road to the right of the 25.  As the current goes whichever way the turnouts are set, you can now feed the entire layout.

 

3 feeds can be selected by switch from one controller, but you will only be able to control one feed at a time.  If you want trains moving independently of each other, you will need at least one and ideally two extra controllers.  Use one controller for one train at a time; don’t try to ‘pass’ trains between controllers.  There is no need to isolate the controlled feeds from each other if the turnouts are set correctly
 

Now, if you are to be able to park locos so that they can be isolated, and not move while other movements are taking place, you will need isolated sections for them to ‘park’ on.  This s achieved simply by having a gap in the rail on one side, which can either be a plastic isolating rail joiner or no rail joiner at all.  A wire is taken from one side of the gap to a simple on-off switch, which energises the isolated section in the on position and isolates it in the off.  A loco stabling area will have several of these sections, and others can be placed in positions suitable for your shunting movements where they are needed.  Solder the wires to the outside edge of the rail if you are not going to use one socket of a power feed clip for this; it’s not long before soldering becomes cheaper!

Edited May 26, 2020 by The Johnster

[Mark1484]

Hi all,

 

Just a little update on how the layout is progressing. Unfortunately DIY has taken priority in the past weeks but I have managed to get little bits done. 
Cork has been added and I’m now in the process of wiring up the two controllers.

Next steps will be pinning the track and ballast.

 

Cheers for now