Arriva 158 turquoise paint

[chris251]

I'm painting a model of a class 158 in oo scale (into TFW ex-Arriva transition livery), and need to know what paint to use for the Arriva turquoise. I have Humbrol number 47 for the doors, and will mix  a shade for the darker blue, but the turquoise is proving awkward.

I had a Chinese-made tin of 48 (Mediterranean blue), but this dried up, and my newer English made tin is a darker shade. I've tried mixing this with 2(emerald) or 69(yellow) or 154(insignia yellow) and none of these come out the right shade.

On the prototype, the colour seems to be green in some light, and blue in other light, and not mixable with my Humbrol enamels. I've bought the transfers, and need to match a colour to them, but can't mix it with Humbrol - I think the pigments just can't mix that shade.

I came across Pheonix precision paints, and they do sell Arriva turquoise, but it contains lead. I want to airbrush it onto the model, so do not want lead paint (this is a health risk).

Does anyone else make such a colour? (maybe Revel, or Railmatch?)

[Wheatley]

Arriva turquoise used to be Pantone 321, I know thats an ink standard rather than a paint standard but that's what was specified for publicity material. It might at least give you a lead on a RAL or BS equivalent. 

[chris251]

Thanks, that's the information I needed to be able to obtain it.

 

I've now ordered a tester pot of Pantone 321 enamel paint, hopefully I can thin this and airbrush it.

 

Having tried buying the Pheonix Precision paint and brushing it, it doesn't give a good finish in this weather (18 degrees C - they say ideally paint it below 10 degrees C, but as I have the time now in lockdown, I want to paint it now), it sets on the surface within minutes leaving no time to brush the whole area, and then brushing over this ruins the finish, but as it contains lead, I don't think it would be safe to airbrush.

 

I'm not sure if Pheonix paints are the problem, if the warm weather is the problem, if the Humbrol gloss paint I'm trying to paint over is the problem, or if all of these add up to the problem.

 

I'll post more here when I've tried it, for anyone who has the same problem about obtaining paint.

 

Chris

 

(I thought RMWeb would email me when I got a reply - evidently not.)

[Guest Half-full]

23 hours ago, chris251 said:

Thanks, that's the information I needed to be able to obtain it.

 

I've now ordered a tester pot of Pantone 321 enamel paint, hopefully I can thin this and airbrush it.

 

Having tried buying the Pheonix Precision paint and brushing it, it doesn't give a good finish in this weather (18 degrees C - they say ideally paint it below 10 degrees C, but as I have the time now in lockdown, I want to paint it now), it sets on the surface within minutes leaving no time to brush the whole area, and then brushing over this ruins the finish, but as it contains lead, I don't think it would be safe to airbrush.

 

I'm not sure if Pheonix paints are the problem, if the warm weather is the problem, if the Humbrol gloss paint I'm trying to paint over is the problem, or if all of these add up to the problem.

 

I'll post more here when I've tried it, for anyone who has the same problem about obtaining paint.

 

Chris

 

(I thought RMWeb would email me when I got a reply - evidently not.)

Painting over gloss isn't a good idea, paint needs a 'key' to adhere properly, ideally a matt base to paint over.  Gloss is needed for applying decals. 

 

Precision paints are amongst the best there is, I never have any problems brushing it, no matter what the temperature is.  Have you properly stirred the paint?

 

Airbrushing the paint is perfectly safe, as long as you wear a mask, as you should when spraying all paints, any lead in the paint is miniscule and you would need long term exposure to large amounts to cause any health issues

[chris251]

The paint was stirred for a good few minutes with a power-mixer, so the paint should be properly mixed.

 

I'd also gently sanded the gloss paint with grade 1500 wet&dry paper, but clearly, this didn't help, and where I tried brushing it onto just the primer (the roof), it still wouldn't give an even finish and set within minutes.

 

Out of interest, do lead-containing paints set quicker?

 

Now I've ordered the pantone 321, I'll give it a try when it arrives.

 

Can I thin standard coach enamel with white spirit EN245?

 

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by chris251

[tractor_37260]

On 24/07/2020 at 21:43, chris251 said:

The paint was stirred for a good few minutes with a power-mixer, so the paint should be properly mixed.

 

I'd also gently sanded the gloss paint with grade 1500 wet&dry paper, but clearly, this didn't help, and where I tried brushing it onto just the primer (the roof), it still wouldn't give an even finish and set within minutes.

 

Out of interest, do lead-containing paints set quicker?

 

Now I've ordered the pantone 321, I'll give it a try when it arrives.

 

Can I thin standard coach enamel with white spirit EN245?

 

 

 

Did you use the Precision paint straight out of the tin after mixing ? If so better to decant a small amount and then thin it with White Spirit for hand brushing, the paint will then flow/spread better with less brush marks and dry a bit more slowly. Best results using a wide/flat sable haired brush. BS245 is quality White Spirit, Ideal for thinning enamel paint for hand brushing, not the cheaper stuff used mainly as a brush cleaner etc

HTH

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2020 by tractor_37260
additional info

[chris251]

I can't seem to find much info about what the BS245 standard is.

I have half a bottle of wilko's white spirit, labelled BS245, is that what you mean?

 

Also, the pantone 321 paint has arrived, so I've applied some to the sample piece (a scrap of brass which I etch primed for sampling paint on), it's a lighter shade than the Pheonix Precision paint, and has a strong smell distinctly like it contains cellulose (it is labelled as 'synthetic enamel'). Is that going to dissolve a plastic model or will it evaporate beforehand? I plan to airbrush it, outside in the garden.

 

[tractor_37260]

On 28/07/2020 at 20:01, chris251 said:

I can't seem to find much info about what the BS245 standard is.

I have half a bottle of wilko's white spirit, labelled BS245, is that what you mean?

 

>> Regardless of what name is on the bottle, if it's BS245 it's the quality stuff. Googling BS245 will provide all the info necessary.

 

Also, the pantone 321 paint has arrived, so I've applied some to the sample piece (a scrap of brass which I etch primed for sampling paint on), it's a lighter shade than the Pheonix Precision paint, and has a strong smell distinctly like it contains cellulose (it is labelled as 'synthetic enamel'). Is that going to dissolve a plastic model or will it evaporate beforehand? I plan to airbrush it, outside in the garden.

 

>> You will also need Synthetic Thinners to use the pantone paint with an airbrush.  A coat of suitable Primer will also most likely be required as a barrier for the plastic, that won't be adversely affected by the synthetic/cellulose paint.

Probably easier to stick with enamel paints, Precision colours are normally quite accurate. As for the lead content, that won't be a problem for the very small amount of paint used, especially if done outdoors in the garden etc.

 

 

 

[chris251]

I have a rattle can of rust-oleum plastic primer, would that work as the barrier?

I will have to sand the Bachmann paintjob down first.

 

To explain about the use of etch primed samples, then plastic models, I'm painting 2 class 158s to Arriva Trains Wales, one is the old-tooled Bachmann, and the other is a scratchbuild in brass, so the Bachmann one will need plastic primer, the brass one etch primer. I had etch-primed 1 carriage of the brass one, but then the Pheonix paint messed it up, so I had to strip it down to bare metal again.

 

I will then apply transfers and lining for TFW Ex-Arriva to one of them, and ATW to the other.

[tractor_37260]

21 hours ago, chris251 said:

I have a rattle can of rust-oleum plastic primer, would that work as the barrier?

I will have to sand the Bachmann paintjob down first.

 

To explain about the use of etch primed samples, then plastic models, I'm painting 2 class 158s to Arriva Trains Wales, one is the old-tooled Bachmann, and the other is a scratchbuild in brass, so the Bachmann one will need plastic primer, the brass one etch primer. I had etch-primed 1 carriage of the brass one, but then the Pheonix paint messed it up, so I had to strip it down to bare metal again.

 

I will then apply transfers and lining for TFW Ex-Arriva to one of them, and ATW to the other.

 

I've not used Rust-oleum primer, so can't comment, but I'd trial it on a scrap body etc and then use the Synthetic paint over to see what happens.

Perhaps a better idea to strip the paint off the Bach 158 model rather than sand it.

 

 

[chris251]

 

1 hour ago, tractor_37260 said:

 

I've not used Rust-oleum primer, so can't comment, but I'd trial it on a scrap body etc and then use the Synthetic paint over to see what happens.

Perhaps a better idea to strip the paint off the Bach 158 model rather than sand it.

 

 

 

Which form of paint stripper will work on plastic (I think it's probably polystyrene) ?

Turps substitute/white spirit won't do it, but I was using Cellulose thinners or universal thinners on the brass, but don't want to use that on the plastic because I think it's effectively plastic glue.

 

The Bachmann paint job might work ok as a primer, as it's very well attached, and being 'trans-pennine-express' livery it is plain lilac with a giant 'N' and 'trans-pennine-express', so I'd guess the humbrol dark blue will airbrush over it, but the giant 'N' could be a problem.

 

The ends of the Bachmann bodyshells will be awkward because they are half black, half yellow, and I need them completely yellow with black panels, and yellow paint is not opaque.

 

I'll run a test of rust-oleum primer and synthetic enamel paint on a scrap Bachmann collet coach bodyshell (scrap after I ruined the paint job when trying to repaint a month or two back), that should be the same plastic. if I can't get the synthetic enamel to work on the Bachmann bodyshells, I'll just paint this one Transport For Wales.

 

 

[chris251]

Here's a photo of the brass model currently (primed, airbrushed with turquoise, airbrushed with darker blue).

The transfers are from PrecisionLabels, a special sheet done for the class 158. The turquoise I've got mixed to Pantone 321 may be a bit too light a shade, (not got anything to compare it to to know if it really is accurate pantone 321, and 60% gloss doesn't seem very glossy), I found I could thin the synthetic enamel pantone321 with cellulose thinners but not white spirit bs245.

I need to paint the doors, then apply transfers, then airbrush everything with gloss varnish, and repeat for the other carriage.

[chris251]

On 19/07/2020 at 19:34, Guest Half-full said:

Painting over gloss isn't a good idea, paint needs a 'key' to adhere properly, ideally a matt base to paint over.  Gloss is needed for applying decals. 

 

Precision paints are amongst the best there is, I never have any problems brushing it, no matter what the temperature is.  Have you properly stirred the paint?

 

Airbrushing the paint is perfectly safe, as long as you wear a mask, as you should when spraying all paints, any lead in the paint is miniscule and you would need long term exposure to large amounts to cause any health issues

I asked the health and safety person at work, who explained that a half-mask respirator with ABE1 filters and working outside would suitably reduce the risks of airbrushing a lead paint, so I have now airbrushed the Bachmann sides with the Pheonix paint.

 

On 02/08/2020 at 16:57, tractor_37260 said:

 

Perhaps a better idea to strip the paint off the Bach 158 model rather than sand it.

 

 

I found another thread on RMweb someone was suggesting T-Cut, and someone else suggesting liquid Brasso rubbed across the model - I found the Brasso supplied in a tin of cotton worked really well, but took a lot of effort - it gently dissolved and abraded the big golden 'N' on the Bachmann bodyshell, so I could then just paint over with the Pheonix paint, which sticks really well to the surface and good finish when airbrushed.

Has anyone got any clue what colour to use for the darker blue? - I've tried mixing it using a variety of Humbrol enamels, but they either turn out a mushy grey version of whatever colour or are very transparent or completely the wrong consistency (they try spitting unthinned, but when thinned more, they are very watery).  Given the Pheonix paint worked perfectly when thinned with bs245 white spirit and airbrushed, I was wondering if perhaps their 'Garter Blue' (P52) would be right (or if another paint in their range would be right - I would like to avoid lead paint if possible though)?

[CazRail]

Ive recently started a re-paint of a 158 into ATW colours, and decided to gave a look around for paint. I paint in Acrylic, so Ive decided to look down the route of Vallejo. 

 

The two colours that I found are 

 

VAL966 Turquoise  (Model Colour)

And 

MA087 Dark Sea Blue. (Model Air)

 

Not yet had delivery of these, but they seem to look good for match from what Ive seen. 

[chris251]

On 01/04/2021 at 11:09, CazRail said:

The two colours that I found are 

 

VAL966 Turquoise  (Model Colour)

And 

MA087 Dark Sea Blue. (Model Air)

 

Not yet had delivery of these, but they seem to look good for match from what Ive seen. 

I originally tried Vallejo turquoise but found the shade too dark, but I've just tried again at mixing Arriva turquoise from Vallejo paints, and it is possible to mix a very good shade by mixing Vallejo turquoise with Vallejo light turquoise and yellow.

(the turquoise is the base colour, the light turquoise lightens it slightly (and makes it more blue) and the yellow lightens it and turns it turquoise again, without 'greying' it out, the result is a lighter shade of turquoise without 'greying' it out.) 

 

Annoyingly just adding white tends to 'grey' colours rather than making them lighter, which is why I added yellow today.

Maybe I'm just being picky, but I'd say that Vallejo can be used to make a good Arriva turquoise, but it's a good idea to mix several colours not just use one.

The darker blue I've used is Pheonix rail blue, and that seems to look about the same as your choice of MA087.

For the doors, I've used Humbrol number 47 ('sea blue') not sure if this is available as acrylic but their paint colours are not accurate to the colour chart or the tin, and their colours can differ between batches, so a different supplier might be better.

 

[CazRail]

21 hours ago, chris251 said:

I originally tried Vallejo turquoise but found the shade too dark, but I've just tried again at mixing Arriva turquoise from Vallejo paints, and it is possible to mix a very good shade by mixing Vallejo turquoise with Vallejo light turquoise and yellow.

(the turquoise is the base colour, the light turquoise lightens it slightly (and makes it more blue) and the yellow lightens it and turns it turquoise again, without 'greying' it out, the result is a lighter shade of turquoise without 'greying' it out.) 

 

Annoyingly just adding white tends to 'grey' colours rather than making them lighter, which is why I added yellow today.

Maybe I'm just being picky, but I'd say that Vallejo can be used to make a good Arriva turquoise, but it's a good idea to mix several colours not just use one.

The darker blue I've used is Pheonix rail blue, and that seems to look about the same as your choice of MA087.

For the doors, I've used Humbrol number 47 ('sea blue') not sure if this is available as acrylic but their paint colours are not accurate to the colour chart or the tin, and their colours can differ between batches, so a different supplier might be better.

 

Thanks for the feedback on the paint. The turquoise arrived today and as you point out it's a tad dark. I'll have a play with some yellow later if I get a chance.

[Rhydgaled]

On 05/05/2020 at 16:48, chris251 said:

I'm painting a model of a class 158 in oo scale (into TFW ex-Arriva transition livery), and need to know what paint to use for the Arriva turquoise. I have Humbrol number 47 for the doors, and will mix  a shade for the darker blue, but the turquoise is proving awkward.

I know you said you'd mix the dark blue, but I happen to recall that the dark blue is called 'Ocean Blue' from another RM Web topic. From that topic, the RAL id (for the dark 'Ocean Blue') is 5020.

[chris251]

On 03/04/2021 at 20:58, Rhydgaled said:

I know you said you'd mix the dark blue, but I happen to recall that the dark blue is called 'Ocean Blue' from another RM Web topic. From that topic, the RAL id (for the dark 'Ocean Blue') is 5020.

Yes I tried mixing the darker blue from Humbrol paints, and found they turned out too grey (not impressed with the quality or colours in this range recently).

Also on that RMWeb topic, I read that Rail Blue is a fairly good match, and (I wished I could go out to see the train but that would mean a long trip, it was lockdown then and no guarantee of seeing Arriva colours because most are now Transport for Wales livery - was lucky to see some ready for re-painting in a rail yard from the train on the way to work), rail blue does look right to me - a dark turquoise.  (assuming the Mk3 coaches use the same dark blue as the 158s).

A dark turquoise can be mixed by mixing Vallejo turquoise and a black, but I was painting the rest with enamel so I decided to use Pheonix rail blue.