A newbie looking for feedback on my track proposal [Updated + Finalised with Video]

[Will Hay]

Hello.

I've created a layout for my loft and would be grateful if people could have a glance and offer some feedback?

 

I don't intend to motorise track points right now as that's somewhat beyond my immediate level of expertise, so I'm simply going to run the locomotives clockwise and anti-clockwise [green and blue], and tootle up and down the orange as and when.

 

Obviously there are a number of gaps shown that I intend to fill with the small, Hornby 38mm track lengths. 

 

I guess this might seem somewhat unorthodox [four/five tracks side by side] but I'm not looking to replicate any level of accuracy.

The thinking shown suits me, as does the mix of diesels [eight], shunters [two] and steam [three], plus assorted, decorative locomotives.

I'm also aware of significantly restricted access to the far side but I'm reluctant to add an access hole.

 

My intent is simply set them all off and control them as and when they go around.

 

Sincere thanks,

 

Will

Buggleskelly Station

 

 

Notes:

1. Hornby 00

2. DCC

 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Will Hay
Further clarity.

[beejack]

Not a comment on the plan, but more over the baseboard dimensions

1400mm is bigger than any of the common sizes of Plywood or MDf which are 1220 x 610, 1220 x 1220 or 1220 x 2440

Also can you get to all sides? 

Biggest issue is with being able to reach across to sort any derailments etc. not easy across that width of layout.

 

[ITG]

One thing to consider, which you’ve hinted at, is access across 140cm board width. I calculate to be approx 55”, and I would want to work at arms length, laying track, ballasting, making scenery etc at much more than 30-36”. Unless you have access all around the board? And if not motorising points, how will you reach those in the top corner, as that Diagonal distance is even further? What about derailments at that distance?

I am not familiar with Hornby track numbers, but I suspect you are using R1 curves on the inner circuit? Bear in mind that some locos (particularly longer wheelbase steam) will not run comfortably on them.

If all you want to do is run locos/trains, then maybe fair enough, but not much space for any scenic effect. And where will non-used stock stand with precious little siding or loop space?

could it be worth starting a simpler, less busy track plan, and getting a feel for things (not least what you like/dislike) before developing a complex layout?

i do buy in to the idea of Rule 1 “it’s my layout...” but my concern is that you may tire of just seeing trains go round and round. I come at this as a relatively inexperienced modeller, and definitely not a rivet counter, but all things that I too am confronting on my developing thinking.
hope you can pick something out of all that? 

[Will Hay]

Many thanks all.

 

Yes, I'm aware of birch ply coming in 8' x 4' sheets, I just want to maximise every inch.

 

I already have a five loop 8' x 4' layout that started as a two loop layout, currently and temporarily sat on the playroom floor, following a Hornby trackmat pattern I started between Christmas and New Year, this is just a further development.

 

My scenery will be limited to a custom painted board by my [creative] wife for now, with assorted buildings, platforms and figures/cars etc.

 

Edit 06052020 07:33

The access restrictions of the 1400mm width is beginning to dawn on me

 

Edited May 6, 2020 by Will Hay
Now with photo

[Will Hay]

[Chimer]

By heck, that's busy …. 

 

I think, given that space (12 foot square-ish?), most of us would think of having 2'6" (ish) wide boards round the edges and an operating well in the middle.  Is the "L" shape a given?

[Will Hay]

It's in the loft, I'm just maximising space.

If I go 2' 6" wide how many loops is that?

I like to see this stuff moving. I've not much interest in much else

Thanks.

 

Edit.

Ah, a four sided square, I see.

Yes, that's a possibility, not sure why I didn't think of that.

I like it.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Will Hay
Further clarity

[Will Hay]

49 minutes ago, Will Hay said:

It's in the loft, I'm just maximising space.

If I go 2' 6" wide how many loops is that?

I like to see this stuff moving. I've not much interest in much else

Thanks.

 

Edit.

Ah, a four sided square, I see.

Yes, that's a possibility, not sure why I didn't think of that.

I like it.

 

Ah, no, I'm not seeing how this is much different to that which I have already, with less loops, albeit slightly long straights and a hole in the middle for access.

[Zomboid]

So what about your existing layout do you want to improve on?

[Chimer]

18 minutes ago, Will Hay said:

 

Ah, no, I'm not seeing how this is much different to that which I have already, with less loops, albeit slightly long straights and a hole in the middle for access.

 

Well, for one thing you could reach all your points …...

[Chris116]

The great advantages of having a layout around you rather than being on one side of it is that access is much easier as already said and also that the trains go out of your field of vision and then reappear which give more of a feeling of them going somewhere on a roundy roundy. 

 

Whatever you decide I hope you get a lot of enjoyment from what you are doing as that is the reason why we all want/have layouts. Good luck, have fun.

[Will Hay]

2 hours ago, Zomboid said:

So what about your existing layout do you want to improve on?

 

I want it bigger.

I have thirteen locomotives and regularly run nine at once without trouble.

 

2 hours ago, Chimer said:

 

Well, for one thing you could reach all your points …...

 

Fair point, but I tend to leave the points static.

I like the crossover, sure, but it's never been a primary requirement to change points.

Seems odd, I'm sure.

 

1 hour ago, Chris116 said:

The great advantages of having a layout around you rather than being on one side of it is that access is much easier as already said and also that the trains go out of your field of vision and then reappear which give more of a feeling of them going somewhere on a roundy roundy. 

 

Whatever you decide I hope you get a lot of enjoyment from what you are doing as that is the reason why we all want/have layouts. Good luck, have fun.

 

Thanks Chris

I'm just at the start of designing a square layout with six loops at 2700mm [9' ish] x 2000mm x [6'9 ish] complete with centre access and whilst I haven't added any points yet it just feels boring.

I have the square on one monitor here and my original proposal on another with all its twists and turns and, setting aside the valid argument as to reach, there's no contest.

 

I'm now showing the entire loft space [the square on the left being the access hatch, the red being the space the ladder needs once folded].

Edited May 6, 2020 by Will Hay
correction on overall layout dims

[F-UnitMad]

1 hour ago, Will Hay said:

I'm now showing the entire loft space [the square on the left being the access hatch, the red being the space the ladder needs once folded].

So is the layout on the floor then? 

[Philou]

Hmm ... I'm not one for bringing original thinking when it comes to plans, and at the end of the day it is YOUR layout, but it does seem that you have some cracking space of which to perhaps make better use. An example: Have a storage/fiddle yard for stock - you can never have enough stock. Perhaps a scenic run to show off your expresses, a goods yard/quarry/industrial area to keep your shunters busy - that sort of thing - a motive power depot too. You'd be surprised how much is involved in bringing a load of diesel to a depot and then sending it off again, bringing diesel locos from inside the MPD to be refuelled, shuffling and shunting. Goods trains to be formed up in the industrial area and then off 'somewhere'. Bringing in a goods from 'somewhere' and then sorting the wagons. I think you have the makings of something that may keep your interest more so than 'just' a roundy-roundy. Just my thoughts.

 

Oh and by the way, welcome to RMweb;

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Will Hay]

41 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

So is the layout on the floor then? 

 

No, I'm just showing the full layout to give me an idea of remaining space/access whilst at the same time utilising as much space as I can.

 

12 minutes ago, Philou said:

Hmm ... I'm not one for bringing original thinking when it comes to plans, and at the end of the day it is YOUR layout, but it does seem that you have some cracking space of which to perhaps make better use. An example: Have a storage/fiddle yard for stock - you can never have enough stock. Perhaps a scenic run to show off your expresses, a goods yard/quarry/industrial area to keep your shunters busy - that sort of thing - a motive power depot too. You'd be surprised how much is involved in bringing a load of diesel to a depot and then sending it off again, bringing diesel locos from inside the MPD to be refuelled, shuffling and shunting. Goods trains to be formed up in the industrial area and then off 'somewhere'. Bringing in a goods from 'somewhere' and then sorting the wagons. I think you have the makings of something that may keep your interest more so than 'just' a roundy-roundy. Just my thoughts.

 

Oh and by the way, welcome to RMweb;

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

Thanks Philip.

I came here to say I can't get past the picture shown [now with access hatches/lids], but you make some excellent points.

I think I'm limited by my imagination [I'm not limited by the technology of my time, that was Howard Stark] as I drew the large square and then just sat and looked at it blankly, trying to work out how to make it interesting.

I failed, despite looking at endless track designs via google.

 

I know I won't do this again once it's done, and really need to get it right.

[Philou]

Yep, I know the feeling - you come up with something and you find you can't get out of the loop (as it were). Can I suggest that you have a rummage around here on RMweb and look at some other ideas that have been put forward? I can't give you the sites as I'm hopeless at remembering. There is mine, but we're talking of a rather large layout and in my instance, my original idea was more or less it, as it turned out. It was modified but the basic concept survived.

 

In your instance, perhaps consider getting rid of all the first radius track as it won't do justice to your rolling stock - been there, done that. Using the outline plan of your baseboard, print a couple of copies off and with a pencil (do they still exist ?) just doodle a bit, not necessarily following what I suggested earlier, but play around a bit. When your ideas gel into perhaps something else, then use your computer planner to see if the parts fit. Just as a rule of thumb, when doing your design, allow 300mm for each coach and tender/diesel loco.

 

You might find a through station more satisfactory than having it on a sort-of-but-not-really a branch - again somewhere for your expresses to stop before going 'elsewhere'. If you do that, then how about one step on - steam locos, unlike diesels, did need a drink and feeding often. So, here's a reason for a loco to come off and a 'fresh' one to be brought out of a steam MPD and hitched on, and then sent away to 'elsewhere'. Your mainline station might have a branch off it leading to a smaller station elsewhere on your layout (you could use your 1st radius curves here). Using DCC you can operate a shuttle service to and from the main station. That'll keep another loco and a bit of stock busy and you won't have to control that - if you don't want to - as it can be done automatically.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong in having things just going round, but I just feel you might want to evolve into something better AND keep things going round.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

[Will Hay]

26 minutes ago, Philou said:

Yep, I know the feeling - you come up with something and you find you can't get out of the loop (as it were). Can I suggest that you have a rummage around here on RMweb and look at some other ideas that have been put forward? I can't give you the sites as I'm hopeless at remembering. There is mine, but we're talking of a rather large layout and in my instance, my original idea was more or less it, as it turned out. It was modified but the basic concept survived.

 

In your instance, perhaps consider getting rid of all the first radius track as it won't do justice to your rolling stock - been there, done that. Using the outline plan of your baseboard, print a couple of copies off and with a pencil (do they still exist ?) just doodle a bit, not necessarily following what I suggested earlier, but play around a bit. When your ideas gel into perhaps something else, then use your computer planner to see if the parts fit. Just as a rule of thumb, when doing your design, allow 300mm for each coach and tender/diesel loco.

 

You might find a through station more satisfactory than having it on a sort-of-but-not-really a branch - again somewhere for your expresses to stop before going 'elsewhere'. If you do that, then how about one step on - steam locos, unlike diesels, did need a drink and feeding often. So, here's a reason for a loco to come off and a 'fresh' one to be brought out of a steam MPD and hitched on, and then sent away to 'elsewhere'. Your mainline station might have a branch off it leading to a smaller station elsewhere on your layout (you could use your 1st radius curves here). Using DCC you can operate a shuttle service to and from the main station. That'll keep another loco and a bit of stock busy and you won't have to control that - if you don't want to - as it can be done automatically.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong in having things just going round, but I just feel you might want to evolve into something better AND keep things going round.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

 

That's absolutely superb that, Philip, that gives me plenty to think about.

All the best.

Rob [Will Hay]

[Harlequin]

Hi Will,

 

Your ideas about what make a good layout are very different to mine but here's a very broad concept that maybe meets somewhere in the middle. Don't take the track layout literally - it would be  more interesting.

 

Edit: Have you accounted for the sloping ceilings in your loft? They will make the space available smaller depending on the height of the layout above floor level. And is the loft insulated and draught-proofed?

Edited May 7, 2020 by Harlequin

[DCB]

On 05/05/2020 at 22:55, Will Hay said:

 

 Looks like fun. Do the trains stay on the track through those tight set track crossovers,   to be honest it looks better than the L shaped design.      Its definitely not my sort of layout as I really don't like facing points and crossovers and like longer trains,  7 coaches min for an A4.   I also like somewhere to store spare trains on the rails as bits break off modern RTR when I handle it.

Harlequins concept is probably the best so far if you really need 4 trains running simultaneously.   I know that is fun when an express overtakes a slow train, but 4 running lines really eat up space.

[Will Hay]

13 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Hi Will,

 

Your ideas about what make a good layout are very different to mine but here's a very broad concept that maybe meets somewhere in the middle. Don't take the track layout literally - it would be  more interesting.

 

Edit: Have you accounted for the sloping ceilings in your loft? They will make the space available smaller depending on the height of the layout above floor level. And is the loft insulated and draught-proofed?

 

Many thanks.

Unfortunately I can't utilise that much space, it has to sit within the confines of the space required for the ladder, which h massively reduces the area.

I've uploaded a similar layout.

I think I'm saying towards Philip's superb advice as to mixing up tasks rather than solely round and round, I certainly have the stock and engine types to mix it up.

 

I think I'm struggling to know how to put this aspect together, but I'll try find some examples.

 

Raking rafters aren't an issue, I have approx 1000mm before the rake which is fine.

I intend to set the board about 750mm from FFL and I won't have buildings on the outer edge.

 

It's insulated, floor boarded and carpeted.

I'm intending to ply the roof/rafters but may not insulate them as well.

 

Thanks again.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Will Hay
Further clarity

[Harlequin]

It's drawn to scale and I showed the hatch and the ladder in exactly the same positions that you showed them plus a lifting section in the baseboards to give clear access to the hatch. I don't understand how the ladder would interfere.

The point is, it would be worth making the effort to do something along these lines because you'd then have more room for everything - longer platforms, easier radii, goods yards, engine sheds, branchlines that "go somewhere", etc. etc...

 

[F-UnitMad]

3 hours ago, Will Hay said:

I'm intending to ply the roof/rafters but may not insulate them as well.

I would suggest you do - otherwise the extremes of temperature in there are going to play havoc with your trackwork. Of course this is straying into "what is & isn't a loft conversion" and "what is and isn't allowed legally in a loft that is boarded, but not a full Conversion"....

 

As for doing more with trains than just running in circles, maybe it's because that's all you do why you feel the need to run as many as possible at once? Giving trains some 'purpose' & places to go adds to the operational interest of a layout, and gives the operator/s something to think about - say you've modelled a decent station, with several platforms. Here's the local DMU, it's going to stop, but for how long? Will it connect with a stopping Express for example? Then there might be a non-stop Express that just zips straight through. Freight - doesn't just run around for the fun of it; even if you have a pretty generic goods yard, freight doesn't just get dumped anywhere there - coal has to go to the coal yard, vans to the goods shed etc. In modern terms a cement train isn't going to be sent to an oil terminal.

Think about what sort of destinations you can put on your layout for trains to serve, and the sort of sequences that trains would run in (e.g. commuter services morning and evening, expresses through the day, freight at off-peak times) and you'll have far more fun - and actually need less track - than if your goal is just to run as many trains as possible all at once.

 

Back to the loft itself, like Harlequin I'm still not understanding why the whole 'footprint' of the ladder has to be kept clear? 

[Will Hay]

4 hours ago, Harlequin said:

It's drawn to scale and I showed the hatch and the ladder in exactly the same positions that you showed them plus a lifting section in the baseboards to give clear access to the hatch. I don't understand how the ladder would interfere.

The point is, it would be worth making the effort to do something along these lines because you'd then have more room for everything - longer platforms, easier radii, goods yards, engine sheds, branchlines that "go somewhere", etc. etc...

 

 

Hello again.

Apologies, I may not have understood your layout correctly.

I naively thought you'd extended the track around the back of the hatch, when clearly you're showing it running over part of the opening, with some form of removable section.

 

I like that, I like it a lot but I'd be interested to learn how to properly and securely connect each track when the board/removable section is constantly being removed, do I simply remove the board and the track [from the removable board] before I decant from the loft each time, and drop in the board and reconnect the track sections when I return to the layout?

 

FUnit.

Thanks for the advice re. insulating, yes, I probably will although doubt I need to consider the law when utilise an existing space within my home.

The problem at the minute is it's getting super-hot up there, and I assumed, perhaps somewhat naively [again], that insulating the rafters would exacerbate the problem by maintaining the heat in the uppermost/loft section of the house.

I'm considering a velux type window, for ventilation.

 

All,

I'm now heavily leaning against the full perimeter track and assorted sheds/shunting aspects within it, the latter of which I've no real clue on as to how to put together.

However, it's worth bearing in mind that I'm running a [basic] Hornby select controller, my experience of CV's is absolutely zero and, as an example, my perception to date of CV's is that they automate a process I currently undertake manually, which to, pending research, seems to lessen my involvement.

 

As always, I'm sincerely grateful for the input so far.

 

EDIT 0705202017:46

Ah, one small drawback to the proposal from Phil...

....the left hand side of the loft, i.e. that I've never identified, is the same size as the layout I've shown.

I'm working in 50% of my loft space, the balance is storage.

 

The trouble is, the access to the loft storage isn't a case of coming up the hatch and going directly into the storage space, there's a roof truss there that means we traverse up the ladder, into what I'm going to call train space and, through the top left curve on Phil's layout, into the storage loft space.

 

I guess, as well as a removable section over the hatch, I could add a removable section to access the second loft space.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Will Hay
Slight update to give further clarity

[Zomboid]

CVs are just settings in the DCC system. They do essentially what you want them to. Automation is something that you can use DCC for, but there's no reason why you'd have to if you don't want to.

 

For what it's worth, I think that if there's a practical way to achieve what Phil has suggested, that's the best way to achieve what you're asking for - it's the biggest for a start, so you'll be able to run more trains on it than a smaller one. There's scope for longer trains too. It also offers the possibility of doing something more realistic either operationally or scenically should the mood take you at a future date; something your L shaped plan doesn't offer.

[Will Hay]

I'm sold on the square donut now, Zomboid, thanks for the input 

 

I just need to know research what and how to add further interest rather than just my 'round and round'.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Will Hay
Intent edit