Add DCC to kit built locomotive

[RobA2345]

Hi all. I'm currently building the 2mm associations Class 08 shunter and I want to add DCC. This might seem nuts but I'm cautiously optimistic I can add DCC sound. I already have the Zimo MX649F and 5mm sugar cube speaker (speaker just fits in the cab) and I'm looking for guidance on fitting and wiring. Motor is an 8mm coreless Tramfabreik single shaft motor. The chassis is a split frame design.
In my head you would solder motor wires to the sides of the chassis along with the DCC chip motor power wires. The chip has a 6pin plug which is useless so I would cut that off and cut the sheath of the motor wires back. However something tells me it can't be as simple as that.

If anyone is familiar with 2mm products and has any insight into how the 3D printed motor mounts work that would be great. I again assume you would use a suitable adhesive to fix the motor to the mount but how do you fix it to the chassis? No worries if no one knows here, I can ask in the 2FS forum.

Thanks in advance  

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

35 minutes ago, RobA2345 said:

... The chassis is a split frame design.
In my head you would solder motor wires to the sides of the chassis along with the DCC chip motor power wires. .

No, no, no! The old code:

Red and Black to the track,

Orange and Grey the other way (motor terminals).

 

So the black and red go to one each of the frames, orange and grey to the motor terminals. On no account must track power be able to reach the motor terminals directly, and you should check before wiring in the decoder that there is no conduction from either frame to either motor terminal.

[RobA2345]

Haha love the reaction. Don't worry I was never going to try and guess without consultation. If I did everything that made sense in my head I'd get in a lot of trouble 

[RobA2345]

I didn't see any obvious motor terminals like on other motors I've seen but to be honest I've not studied it closely. I'll take a look when I get to it tomorrow. When you say

Quote

check before wiring in the decoder that there is no conduction from either frame to either motor terminal

 

The motor is mounted to a 3D printed mount so It will be isolated from the frames.

Edited May 5, 2020 by RobA2345
clarification

[Izzy]

I think it would be better if you posted this in the 2FS section. There will probably be those who have the experience of doing all of this with the kit, certainly fitting DCC + stay-alives in the 08 and sound into other 2mm locos, who will be able to advise you.

 

Izzy

[RobA2345]

1 hour ago, Izzy said:

I think it would be better if you posted this in the 2FS section. There will probably be those who have the experience of doing all of this with the kit, certainly fitting DCC + stay-alives in the 08 and sound into other 2mm locos, who will be able to advise you.

 

Izzy

 

Thanks Izzy I could have asked it there yes or in the 2mm Group I just figured its not really 2FS specific and the 2FS group might want a break from my infernal questions 

[RobA2345]

Sorry if it seems obvious but where are the motor terminals on this motor? Is it the 4 notches at the back side?

[Izzy]

 

No Rob. They just hold the end casing in place. I was just about to post this:-

 

As there have been no other replies I'll offer these in case they will help. This is a 2mmSA etched chassis used under a Farish body, so the amount of room available could well differ to that inside the 2mmSA body. That is one of the main questions I cannot answer. It is fitted with a small 7x16 coreless motor, so similar to that from Tramfrabreik. With this type of motor there are no motor tags as such, but rather wires coming out of the case. I always curl these around the end case in a half circle and apply cryno to stop them fracturing. It's a job otherwise to replace them when they do fracture as they enter the case and the current circuit is broken as they are soldered to the commutator fingers inside the case. The motor is glued in place in a plasticard box built up around it. I have no experience of the 3D mounts. Others often seat the motors using Blu-tack etc. Whatever you find works for you etc......

 

The red/black decoder wires must be connected to the track. So I attached these to the chassis, well the gapped PCB chassis spacer in this case. I stuck another bit of PCB on top of this behind these points - I think it was some sleeper pcb, again gapped to which to solder the wires from the motor and connect the motor output wires from the decoder, Orange/Grey. This decoder is a CT DCX76, the Zimo will of course be quite a bit bigger both in length, width, and thickness.

 

You will see I also added a 16v Tantalum stay-alive unit. This was a homebrew job. If you can manage to add a stay-alive of some kind it is of great benefit, especially with sound. I would kind of guess that one should fit under the Zimo MX649F if it stretches the whole length of the 08 engine compartment and seeing as how the speaker you have is intended to fit in the cab.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Izzy

 

 

 

 

[RobA2345]

26 minutes ago, Izzy said:

 

No Rob. They just hold the end casing in place. I was just about to post this:-

 

As there have been no other replies I'll offer these in case they will help. This is a 2mmSA etched chassis used under a Farish body, so the amount of room available could well differ to that inside the 2mmSA body. That is one of the main questions I cannot answer. It is fitted with a small 7x16 coreless motor, so similar to that from Tramfrabreik. With this type of motor there are no motor tags as such, but rather wires coming out of the case. I always curl these around the end case in a half circle and apply cryno to stop them fracturing. It's a job otherwise to replace them when they do fracture as they enter the case and the current circuit is broken as they are soldered to the commutator fingers inside the case. The motor is glued in place in a plasticard box built up around it. I have no experience of the 3D mounts. Others often seat the motors using Blu-tack etc. Whatever you find works for you etc......

 

The red/black decoder wires must be connected to the track. So I attached these to the chassis, well the gapped PCB chassis spacer in this case. I stuck another bit of PCB on top of this behind these points - I think it was some sleeper pcb, again gapped to which to solder the wires from the motor and connect the motor output wires from the decoder, Orange/Grey. This decoder is a CT DCX76, the Zimo will of course be quite a bit bigger both in length, width, and thickness.

 

You will see I also added a 16v Tantalum stay-alive unit. This was a homebrew job. If you can manage to add a stay-alive of some kind it is of great benefit, especially with sound. I would kind of guess that one should fit under the Zimo MX649F if it stretches the whole length of the 08 engine compartment and seeing as how the speaker you have is intended to fit in the cab.

 

 

 

Thank you. So instead of terminals they've have wires. Fair enough I thought all motors had wires hence the confusion. The wires from the motor go to the decoder wires (orange and grey) and the motor wires on the decoder go to the chassis. That makes sense.

If you're saying the motor mount and casing is a 'figure it out whatever works' job I can deal with that. I just didn't want to miss something if there is a prescribed way of doing it.

The sound is a punt, maybe it will work maybe it won't but I'll give it a shot. I have a backup decoder in case it doesn't pan out. I fitted sound to a Dapol Class 43 once and that had a stay-alive so I understand the benefit but even with the smallest decoder money can buy I might not have enough room for both. The chip will fit along the top of the body and its resin so I can file some away if needed but that is a very delicate job. The chip itself has some plastic casing which if it didn't have that the chip would fit easily with room to spare but I assume that is heat protection of some kind.

[Nigelcliffe]

The plastic wrap on the decoder is to protect against short circuits from stray bits of wire (which could easily write it off), and damage from ham-fisted installers.  If tight for space, get rid of it.   But, your risk to the decoder inside the wrapping from mistakes.    

It is not "heat protection", if anything it makes the cooling of the decoder harder. 

 

Personally, I'd have stay-alive over sound.   Sound with interruptions due to power loss is really annoying to my way of thinking.   Whereas stay-alive does a lot to help the illusion that this is a model of something weighing 50 tons. 

 

Nigel

[RobA2345]

14 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

The plastic wrap on the decoder is to protect against short circuits from stray bits of wire (which could easily write it off), and damage from ham-fisted installers.  If tight for space, get rid of it.   But, your risk to the decoder inside the wrapping from mistakes.    

It is not "heat protection", if anything it makes the cooling of the decoder harder. 

 

Personally, I'd have stay-alive over sound.   Sound with interruptions due to power loss is really annoying to my way of thinking.   Whereas stay-alive does a lot to help the illusion that this is a model of something weighing 50 tons. 

 

Nigel

Noted Nigel thanks. I think the sound idea is dead in the water at the moment anyway as the speaker just won't fit, I need .5 of a mm to make it work. I'll have to have it reprogrammed for another loco. Getting sound in a 2mm shunter would have been good though...blinded by ambition. I'll get a decoder with a stay-alive and re-purpose the Zimo.

Edited May 7, 2020 by RobA2345
typo

[RobA2345]

Actually no I can fit both a stay-alive and the speaker in the cab easily if I black out or cloud the windows. I think I'll go with that since re-purposing will be more expensive.

[RobA2345]

On 07/05/2020 at 15:55, Izzy said:

 

No Rob. They just hold the end casing in place. I was just about to post this....

 

 

 

 

 

This post has really helped me out thanks Izzy. I have the motor now turning the wheels which is a big step forward. Next step is to try and get the wires as neat as you have. Can I ask what you stuck the DCC chip down to the mount with? I bought a 3D printer so have made a mount for the motor and used epoxy to fix it to the chassis. Epoxy for the chip seems like a massive risk. Now I have it running do I need to lubricate the worm, gears and axels?

Thanks again.
Rob

Edited May 11, 2020 by RobA2345
typo

[Izzy]

Glad it helped. I just use a small patch of d/s tape to hold decoders in place. Usually as small as possible so they can be prised off/re-positioned - gently/carefully(!) - should this be needed. On a long one like the MX649 perhaps two small strips at either end of the mount would be best.

 

A tiny amount on the worm/gears can often help. Same with the chassis bearings/axles. But I mean tiny. Too much is as bad as none at all. Especially if Simpson springs/current collectors are also fitted. Oil is a good barrier for small current flows and aids the generation of muck around the axles and pickups so is not good for split-axle current collection through enclosed bearings since the muck gets trapped in them.

 

Izzy

[John ks]

On 08/05/2020 at 01:41, RobA2345 said:

Thank you. So instead of terminals they've have wires. Fair enough I thought all motors had wires hence the confusion. The wires from the motor go to the decoder wires (orange and grey) and the motor wires on the decoder go to the chassis. That makes sense.

No

The motor wires on the decoder go to the motor

 

I tend to work better with pictures so this should help

The numbers are for a 6 pin decoder

 

 

 

 

 

[RobA2345]

On 19/05/2020 at 01:17, John ks said:

No

The motor wires on the decoder go to the motor

 

I tend to work better with pictures so this should help

The numbers are for a 6 pin decoder

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the graphic its definitely helpful for the future but that's what I meant, sorry it was just a terminology error. I got this working in the end thanks for the useful replies