First Layout - A Classic GWR BLT - Needs refining

[DannyPhunk]

Hi guys, first post and total newbie to railway modelling.

I'm sure everyone remembers their first kit, mine was a Horby Virgin Trains HST and I could watch that go round for hours! Now I'm a little older my tastes have developed and I would love nothing more than a semi believable BLT set in GWR late 30s? I come from Swindon and visit the Steam museum regularly so the GWR theme is non-negotiable.

I have toyed around both in SCARM and with the track I have and am pretty happy with this layout, it'll allow me to run push/pull in the top station line and slightly longer steam in the bottom with a neat loop that leads to goods/engine yard. I have a peco LK 55 and would love to use it in the layout, especially for turning larger engines such as a castle class. (I know it's less likely to show up at a branch line terminus but it is my favourite engine)

The red track section is just an idea to allow trains that have been turned to immediately join the branch line and commence other duties further up line, but I'm not totally sold on this idea.

The hope is to create a busy suburban seaside branch with enough goods shunting to keep me busy! Any input is greatly appreciated but I am limited to the baseboard size as this will be in my bedroom.

 

Yellow is station, red is goods shed, black is coaling station and water tower, green will be a roadbridge to hide a minor fiddle yard.

 

Thanks for looking!

 

Dan.

[Harlequin]

Hi Dan,

 

Ah, the lure of the GWR BLT is irresistible!

 

It might be better to have the turntable on the other side of the station, more the passenger side. Then, with Castles in mind, you would be firmly in Kingswear territory... (Everyone reading this would probably have said the same - I just got here first.)

 

What are the dimensions of the blue outline?

 

[DannyPhunk]

Thanks for a quick reply!

The layout grid is 100mm squares so its 2.4m across and 1.2m wide, thinning to .6m for the L

In terms of the moving of the turntable are we talking to the west behind the station? I think that would squeeze the layout a bit too much, I also like the way it helps explain the kink in the run around loop!

 

Cheers

 

[JohnR]

I would say you should look to have your turntable in the top right corner. Theres not a lot you can do in that area, and of course, it takes up a lot of space at the front, where you ideally should have your goods yard so you can shunt wagons easily. 

 

At such a small station as this, you wouldnt have a massive engine shed with rows of locos - as Harlequin said, its like Kingswear, There you had the minimum of facilities - but a large table because GW Castles and other big 4-6-0s needed turning. 

[DannyPhunk]

I was planning on turning the top right into a beach scene with the outer edge of the track there being raised on a sea wall, else I would have positioned the turnable up there. I'm still not 100% on how I'm laying the scenery yet but I thought it would be nice to have a beach scene that I could hide incase I mess the water up terribly!!

Or do you think that the positioning of the turntable and station layout is primary to scenics?

[DannyPhunk]

So after a bit of fiddling in SCARM I can get the turntable on the passenger side but that leaves me with only two coaches worth of loop, not too shabby since I'll probably only be running B sets.

Again I've added the coloured scrawling to demonstrate key scenic spots. I must admit I really do prefer the throat on this one so thanks for the tips! Wondering how everyone else views the two and which they prefer?

 

Cheers

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

If you are only running B sets, you don't need a turntable. If you really want one, it needs to be rather smaller than the standard 76' option.

 

With only 2.4m length to play with, a Kingswear is not really an option but plenty of interesting GWR termini would be.

[Harlequin]

Are the crossover turnouts SetTrack? If so, yeuch, you probably don't need them. You have a long enough run round loop and you don't need the central crossover - just need a way to make the main platform longer.

 

How much room have you got for your fiddle yard? It's best to plan that at the same time as the scenic part. It may be possible to share some space with it.

 

 

[DannyPhunk]

30 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

If you are only running B sets, you don't need a turntable. If you really want one, it needs to be rather smaller than the standard 76' option.

 

With only 2.4m length to play with, a Kingswear is not really an option but plenty of interesting GWR termini would be.

It's mostly since B sets are the only real rolling stock I have at the moment, I am hoping to do some kitbuilding in the near future so I can increase the length of my trains! Plus I already have the LK-55 and I'm not looking for perfect realism, just something that'll keep me entertained.

 

11 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Are the crossover turnouts SetTrack? If so, yeuch, you probably don't need them. You have a long enough run round loop and you don't need the central crossover - just need a way to make the main platform longer.

 

How much room have you got for your fiddle yard? It's best to plan that at the same time as the scenic part. It may be possible to share some space with it.

 

 

I'm a complete fool, having removed the central crossover I can probably squeeze about 4 carragies onto the platform whilst using the loop. The whole thing is settrack! I'm still working out how to do proper modelling and so the layability is super helpful. I also kind of like the added limitations of it, makes me think harder!

The fiddle yard is going to be the pokey 400x600 at the bottom right, it currently backs on to my computer desk but with a bit of funiture tetris I can probably add a removable yard up to about 600x400 extra that will live under the bed when not in use.

 

Cheers again for the input guys!

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

I understand that Setrack can seem easier. But even a couple of pieces of flexitrack (Streamline) will give you a lot more options.

[Harlequin]

I hate to say this but it's going to be extremely challenging to create the kind of station you have in mind and run the sort of trains you are thinking of in the space available.

The fiddle yard, even at maximum extension, won't hold a Castle plus 4 coaches. (Remember you need to allow for the length of pointwork and clearance as well).

 

You could perhaps use ~1300mm long cassettes but, realistically, I'm afraid a major rethink is probably needed.

 

Alternative ideas would be an engine shed area, part of a bigger station that's off-scene. That would let you use your Castles and your turntable and could be quite busy.

Or maybe a smaller BLT who's biggest visiting loco is a Small Prairie plus 2 or 3 coaches.

Or a quayside, where SetTrack would make more sense.

There's bound to be a solution of some sort.

 

The really radical solution would be to go down to 2mm scale.

 

Edited May 7, 2020 by Harlequin

[DCB]

A major rethink. Another metre on the Fiddle Yard/Traverser would let you use the Hockey stick traverser I keep banging on about. ,  Castle plus 4 X 57ft coaches is 50" or 1250mm, the numbers don't add up.   You need about 14" for a 2 ft crossover X 2, 40" for 4 X 60ft coaches plus 10" beyond for the loco so about 6ft 6" or almost 2 metres to squeeze a Castle round 4 X coaches.  but realistically this won't look right.  Even Prairies and B sets, maybe with an added through coach or two or 12 or so wagons on a goods will stretch the available space.

More space, less ambitious trains, or N gauge sound like the best options.

[DannyPhunk]

Having slept on it and remeasured I definitely can extend the fiddle yard by anywhere up to 1.2m and comfortably house a castle with 3 carriages, this should satisfy my hunger for longer trains!

The biggest limiting factor here is budget, I really cant afford any more rolling stock and I definitely can't blow out and start modelling in N.

 

[The Johnster]

On 06/05/2020 at 20:12, Joseph_Pestell said:

If you are only running B sets, you don't need a turntable. If you really want one, it needs to be rather smaller than the standard 76' option.

 

With only 2.4m length to play with, a Kingswear is not really an option but plenty of interesting GWR termini would be.

Tender locos worked with B sets; DG, 2251, and 43xx look quite at home with them.  But I agree the tt is not needed and think the space can be used for better things.  This means the crossover by the platform ramps can go as well. 
 

I agree with those that have suggested flexible track, but for very tight curves, setrack is preferable.  I know you really want your tt, but very few GW branches had them after WW1.  Many were built at a time when small 2-4-0s, 0-6-0s, even singles, that only needed 40’ tables, were in use, and by the late 30s tank engines were pretty much wall to wall on branches.  As it’s the seaside, bigger locos might appear on excursions, but again, most are too heavy for the Route Availability, the load that the track and the bridges can safely carry.  St Ives has been mentioned; this was restricted to 45xx. 
 

The exception to this is South Wales, where all but Kings and 47xx can, and sometimes did, run everywhere.  Have a look at Barry Island and Porthcawl, larger setups than this but something inspired by them might work for you, and both saw Castles and lesser tender locos on Bank Holidays, with gangwayed stock.  No tt, though, sorry, big engines turned on triangles at those places. 
 

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by The Johnster

[tomparryharry]

May I suggest that if you want to portray a busy branch termini, the you might consider to 'lose, the coaling stage. The locos concerned would come onto the branch with the coal stock 'in use' for the shifts work. A water crane would be pretty much a necessity, but an out & back operation means you can afford to dispense such luxuries. 

 

Something like your choice of main locomotive, a second loco on local work, and a pannier on goods & pilot work. 

 

First & foremost:- Have fun!

 

Ian.  

[DannyPhunk]

Well it's been absolutely ages since I last posted but I've spent my time lurking the forums and purchasing a quantity of preowned SL-Code 100 from a well known auction website!

 

I've given the whole arrangement a rejig in streamline and everything is above settrack 3rd radius and I do believe it all flows rather nicely.

 

If anyone cares to let me know their thoughts on my latest proposal please do! Once again station is in yellow, goods shed in red and a hastely scribbled scenic break in green. I would like to add a water tower just to give it that feeling of a working station but im still not 100% sure on positioning for one.

 

Thanks again for looking guys all input is good input

 

(the slight overhang on the left hand side is acceptable as I have a small triangular fillet there which gives 300mm extra space along the top)

[DCB]

Still dominated by the turntable.  Max train length constrained by the tiny FY looks like 2 coaches and a 4-6-0 so why the 75ft TT

My 65 ft cut down Dapol swings a Duchess, so a 60ft or 55ft would be a lot easier on space.

I would move the sidings down to make the yard more spacious and shorten the bottom platform to just the spur beyond the run round to provide a loading dock. Docks are often 3ft 3" or more t allow level loading of vans etc where passenger platforms must not exceed 3ft from rail level.   But it needs more FY length to be fun to operate.

[Happy Hippo]

On the subject of turning locos............

 

Although you seem hell bent on turning locos 'on scene' how do you intend to do this in the fiddle yard?  One presumes it will be man handling of locos and stock with the resulting minor damage that inevitably occurs.

 

Have you thought about having your loco facilities off scene?

 

You could then put the turntable at the far end of the fiddle yard and use it to turn locos at the outward end of the trip as well.  A dedicated escape road could provide for locos coming from the station. 

 

Better still, by using that system incorporated with a traverser style fiddle yard you could have a number of storage roads for locos 'off scene' and perpendicular (ish) to the traverser. 

 

My scribble may explain better.

 

The outbound stub roads allow you to store a loco or two which can be backed on to the next train required on scene.

 

Of course all the real action will now take place in the fiddle yard!!

 

Edited June 13, 2020 by Happy Hippo

[The Stationmaster]

I think part of your problem, already identified by others, is the turntable.  in the real world turntables were almost on a par with rocking horse pooh at GWR branch termini  - definitely present at some secondary mainline termini such as Kingswear and even - at one time - Pembroke Dock but rarely found on branch lines although a handful existed.

 

And they certainly didn't exist except possibly in teh very earliest years at a station of the size you are able to create in that area.  Best thing to do is bite the bullet and recognise the limitations of the space you have to work with.

[Harlequin]

I haven't got time to draw it but imagine a smaller branch terminus aligned roughly as above but with only one platform. From the top:

• Run round loop with connection to small engine shed area in the top right - Coal, water, ash, 45ft turntable (big enough for a small prairie), engine shed.
• Platform line
• Platform
• Goods line extending about 3/4 down the other side of the platform and through Goods shed backing onto the platform
• Splay for goods yard
• Back siding with optional kickback to make life interesting and use space inside the entrance curve.

 

Edited June 13, 2020 by Harlequin

[Zomboid]

2 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

Still dominated by the turntable.  Max train length constrained by the tiny FY looks like 2 coaches and a 4-6-0 so why the 75ft TT

My 65 ft cut down Dapol swings a Duchess, so a 60ft or 55ft would be a lot easier on space.

The turntable has already been purchased...

 

I'd suggest to the OP not to buy any more track etc until you've got a design you're happy with.

[DannyPhunk]

Thanks for the input guys, you're all definitely right on the turntable point an I have decide to concede and remove it from the scenic area I was already planning on attaching a tranverser to operate as the fiddle yard and i think sticking the turntable on the end of that is a much better solution for an appropriate use! 

 

I find I tend to work better physically placing track than looking at it on the screen and thought id share what I've laid down. The leftmost line is platform 1 and takes all the most important traffic passenger wise. the run round loop is on platform 2 which can squeeze a classic 14XX and autocoach without impedeing the loop. the two lines to the right are going to be goods, the one furthest right will have the goods shed and the middle right will probably serve as a parcels/mail siding, still not 100% on that. The siding at the start which currently leads to a point now feels pretty pointless too? the green marks a roadbridge that will serve as scenic break and the red is where a 900mm transverser will begin.

 

Thanks again for all the input guys, I do appreciate it!

 

[DCB]

Looks good. I didn't factor in the extra 3ft for the traverser.   Which brings me to one of my favourite schemes with kick back  siding as well as a traverser You can run the train onto the traverser, push the stock back onto an engine waiting in the kick back, traverse the loco and set the stock back onto the traverser,  Might work rather well if the traverser is 600 MM plus a 300 mm turntable beyond.  see doodle

Doodle 2 has a backscene with extra stock sidings behind. I don't like handling stock. I snap handrails and drop things so prefer stock to remain on the rails whenever possible.  A road bridge crossing the station throat was by no means uncommon if you want a scenic break. Fairford was one such terminus, and several were in cuttings or against retaining walls which would hide those extra stock sidings.

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by DavidCBroad

[Zomboid]

Those are clever ideas, but I'd be wary of making the layout in a way that there's more to do off scene than on.

 

Having said that, the kickback storage roads idea might be an opportunity to eliminate the complexity of building a traverser. Just have an arrival line, detach the loco and push the carriages into the storage siding. Then run the loco into a separate "MPD" siding. Pull the carriages back into the arrival line, put a loco on top and off we go again. Have a dedicated line for the autotrain, and put a run round in for shorter trains and we're done.

 

The station itself is heading into the familiar GWR BLT territory, which is pretty inevitable really given the brief and available space. Having a second platform on the run round side is interesting. How about ripping off Helston, which I believe was built as a through station for an extension (to the Lizard?) which was never built, or Bridport after the bit onwards to the actual seaside was closed.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Zomboid

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Hi Dan, the great advantage with planning using actual rolling stock is that you can check for clearances on loops and sidings, exactly as you’ve done with the Autocoach train.  You can also see what looks ‘right’ to you and test some different viewing angles.

 

One tip - if you can leave things out for a few days - is to do exactly that: see if an idea you like still works for you a few days later (if it does, you may have something that’ll keep your interest).  Have you tried gently curving the platform / loop lines now you’re using Flextrack, for example?  I’d only suggest looking at a gentle curve, as the platform clearance (“Mind the Gap”) increases.

 

Reading through the thread, I note all the plans you’ve drawn include a kickback siding from within the goods yard (far right).  This looks like it was originally to feed the turntable in the first sketch.  Do think about whether you want to keep it?  There are prototypes for such sidings: at Ashburton there was just such a siding back from the Goods Shed siding to serve a Mill, for example, although the station site was quite narrow there.  However, in reality these sidings might be shunted using a horse or a rope instead of directly by a locomotive, and you also have to make sure you’ve got enough space in the principal siding for the wagons you want to reverse into the kickback siding.  Of course, these kind of operational complexities may be what you want to keep, to make operation more varied (one way in which model railways can be the opposite of the real thing).  The planning stage is the time to think about this.  Just a thought, Keith.