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York in 1977


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Looking at possibly undertaking a project on York in 1977 and I was wondering if I could rack your collective brains with a couple of queries.

 

1. Where was the Motorail Loading Bay situated?

2. Was there a dedicated platform(s)  for Parcels services?

3. What classes of DMU were operating out of York around that time and were they used on 'dedicated' routes?

4. Lastly, did the Class 124 Trans-Pennine units operate scheduled services out of York?

 

I very much hope that you will be able to help me - thanks in advance!

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If you can find a DMU locoshed directory for that year, any units based at Leeds Neville Hill (NL) and Hull Botanic Gardens (BG) would give you a good guide as to what units probably would appear at York.  I’m pretty sure that you wouldn’t go far wrong with Class 101 and 108.

 

I’m pretty sure that the Class 124 Trans Pennine units rarely, if ever worked out York.  I think their main route was Hull, Leeds, Manchester Victoria and Liverpool, but I stand to be corrected.

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Have you tried looking on Flickr? A quick search with “York Train 1977” brought up thousands of images (not all relevant, of course) including several DMU types and a class 124. 

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12 minutes ago, Western Aviator said:

Have you tried looking on Flickr? A quick search with “York Train 1977” brought up thousands of images (not all relevant, of course) including several DMU types and a class 124. 

 

Agreed, 124s did "regularly" visit York. 

In addition to NL and BG DMU's, there were services run from the North East.  So Darlington allocated DMUs were also common.

 

 

 

Steve

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3 hours ago, Western Aviator said:

Have you tried looking on Flickr? A quick search with “York Train 1977” brought up thousands of images (not all relevant, of course) including several DMU types and a class 124. 

Yes, you are correct there! Thanks very much for the 'Heads-Up'!

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3 hours ago, 55020 said:

 

Agreed, 124s did "regularly" visit York. 

In addition to NL and BG DMU's, there were services run from the North East.  So Darlington allocated DMUs were also common.

 

 

 

Steve

Thanks very much for your help - quite a variety of classes to choose from!

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8 hours ago, jools1959 said:

If you can find a DMU locoshed directory for that year, any units based at Leeds Neville Hill (NL) and Hull Botanic Gardens (BG) would give you a good guide as to what units probably would appear at York.  I’m pretty sure that you wouldn’t go far wrong with Class 101 and 108.

 

I’m pretty sure that the Class 124 Trans Pennine units rarely, if ever worked out York.  I think their main route was Hull, Leeds, Manchester Victoria and Liverpool, but I stand to be corrected.

Thanks very much for your help!

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The years 1974-77 were at the peak of our visits to York, a very popular Merrymaker destination in the 1970s from Bristol. A brief look at my spotting notes has York visits on both 5/3/77 and 2/4/77.

DMUs noted included classes 101 and 124 (previously mentioned) but also Hammerton street allocated class 104 and 110, and a South Gosforth class 105 (Cravens ) unit. 

Edit : from my personal experience trans-pennine class 124s were very common at York 1974-1977, (sorry service they were on not noted). We saw them every time I visited there.

Neil 

Edited by Downendian
Class 124 info
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7 hours ago, Downendian said:

The years 1974-77 were at the peak of our visits to York, a very popular Merrymaker destination in the 1970s from Bristol. A brief look at my spotting notes has York visits on both 5/3/77 and 2/4/77.

DMUs noted included classes 101 and 124 (previously mentioned) but also Hammerton street allocated class 104 and 110, and a South Gosforth class 105 (Cravens ) unit. 

Edit : from my personal experience trans-pennine class 124s were very common at York 1974-1977, (sorry service they were on not noted). We saw them every time I visited there.

Neil 

Thank you very much for your reply. I assume that the '124's would have been utilised on York/Liverpool DMU services, of which there were a couple each day. A photo on Flickr shows a 124 leaving Scarborough on what appears to be a Liverpool train which formed the 13.08 service from York, although how it got to Scarborough is anyone's guess as there was not a balancing service shown in the WTT.

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On 07/05/2020 at 02:23, St.Paddy9001 said:

Looking at possibly undertaking a project on York in 1977 and I was wondering if I could rack your collective brains with a couple of queries.

 

1. Where was the Motorail Loading Bay situated?

2. Was there a dedicated platform(s)  for Parcels services?

3. What classes of DMU were operating out of York around that time and were they used on 'dedicated' routes?

4. Lastly, did the Class 124 Trans-Pennine units operate scheduled services out of York?

 

I very much hope that you will be able to help me - thanks in advance!

Hi St Paddy9001,

In response to your queries, I think 3 and 4 have been answered (and I would concur with the responses).

As for 1 and 2, in 1966 Platform 1 was converted into a Motorail Loading Dock. I don't have any photos showing this I'm afraid (well, not yet anyway), but it may be of interest that I have a photo of the where the Car Loading Dock was located at the old York station. It was just behind the War Memorial.

768303295_YorkCarLoadingDock.jpg.01e588192ea3fce8b8f2f6cc34679602.jpg

 

Although earlier than the above photo, this view is from the other end, as it were. from the Bar Walls looking at the station. The two rakes of carriages on the far left indicate where the loading dock is situated.

343624547_Yorkoldstation(2).jpg.4c05810b17429c7e440d2c0280a8371b.jpg

 

As for query 2, I don't ever recall a dedicated platform (at the current station) for parcels traffic. In fact, there as well as the lifts/subway for passenger use, there used to be separate lifts/subway access to platforms for Post Office staff use so parcels (and letters) could be collected/despatched from any platform.

 

Hope this helps. 

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Of no help at all to the OP, but the buffers and several yards of rail for the loading dock behind the war memorial were uncovered when the archaeologists were test pitting in what was by then the West Offices car park prior to conversion to council offices. 

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To add a little bit more regarding the DMU situation at York in 1977, can I also suggest railcar.co.uk website, with use of the advanced search facility on the "images" tab?

As for DMU classes in service at that time that were common at York: -

101/102

104

105

108

110

111

Also, Lincoln's 114s seem to have wandered into West / North Yorkshire

 

TransPennine Class 124s have already been discussed above, and I believe the Class 123s were just starting to appear at Hull during 1977; at that time I believe they were still kept separate from the Class 124 sets, and that the mixed 123/124 sets were yet to come. 

 

In addition to the DMU classes listed above, there could possibly be Departmental units - the obvious candidate being teh Class 109 General Manager's Saloon (Gin Palace...).

 

LM Region units may have ventured across the Pennines, I recall seeing a Class 124 strengthened with an Allerton Class 108 in an image on the Interweb. 

 

The only DMU classes on a "dedicated" service at York were the Darlington units on the local service to Thirsk, Northallerton and Darlington. DN depot had many Class 101s, but also some 104s. Presumably the Newcastle allocated Class 105 would have arrived on a similar service.  The units from the Yorkshire Depots (BG, NL, HS, and LN's wandering 114s) would typically have been used on local services from the southern end of the station, also northwards towards Harrogate Loop and towards Scarborough.

 

Classes 124 (and 123) were in Blue/Grey livery, while others would have been plain blue *but* West Yorkshire PTE was an early adopter of funding the refurbishment scheme, so by 1977 most of the NL allocation of 101s, 108s and some 111s were in the white / blue stripe livery. May have been some 114s in the white livery by then, but not any 110s. 

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18 hours ago, iands said:

Hi St Paddy9001,

In response to your queries, I think 3 and 4 have been answered (and I would concur with the responses).

As for 1 and 2, in 1966 Platform 1 was converted into a Motorail Loading Dock. I don't have any photos showing this I'm afraid (well, not yet anyway), but it may be of interest that I have a photo of the where the Car Loading Dock was located at the old York station. It was just behind the War Memorial.

768303295_YorkCarLoadingDock.jpg.01e588192ea3fce8b8f2f6cc34679602.jpg

 

Although earlier than the above photo, this view is from the other end, as it were. from the Bar Walls looking at the station. The two rakes of carriages on the far left indicate where the loading dock is situated.

343624547_Yorkoldstation(2).jpg.4c05810b17429c7e440d2c0280a8371b.jpg

 

As for query 2, I don't ever recall a dedicated platform (at the current station) for parcels traffic. In fact, there as well as the lifts/subway for passenger use, there used to be separate lifts/subway access to platforms for Post Office staff use so parcels (and letters) could be collected/despatched from any platform.

 

Hope this helps. 

Those two sidings had originally run all the way down to the riverbank and were I think used to tranship  freight (and possibly coal) at a wharf there.  They were cut back at a very early date and I have only ever seen one photo of them showing their original length.

 

As a little aside in Trainload Freight days between 1992 & 1994 my opposite number who covered freight planning on the former ER (including the NER) was located in the offices visible in the centre of the lower photo built above the centre of the old station (obviously a much later addition to the original buildings).  My boss at that time had his office in the wing of the old station offices looking out onto Tanner Row - a nice venue for our team meetings (although we moved those around our respective areas so only about one in three took place in York;  Bath and Shrewsbury were the favoured alternatives being, quite rightly, considered far nicer that Swindon and Crewe respectively ;)

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14 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Those two sidings had originally run all the way down to the riverbank and were I think used to tranship  freight (and possibly coal) at a wharf there.  They were cut back at a very early date and I have only ever seen one photo of them showing their original length.

 

As a little aside in Trainload Freight days between 1992 & 1994 my opposite number who covered freight planning on the former ER (including the NER) was located in the offices visible in the centre of the lower photo built above the centre of the old station (obviously a much later addition to the original buildings).  My boss at that time had his office in the wing of the old station offices looking out onto Tanner Row - a nice venue for our team meetings (although we moved those around our respective areas so only about one in three took place in York;  Bath and Shrewsbury were the favoured alternatives being, quite rightly, considered far nicer that Swindon and Crewe respectively ;)

Hi Mike,

Thanks, very interesting comment regarding the two sidings running down to the river bank, presumably along what are now Station Road and Tanner Moat. Born and bred in York but never knew that detail - proves you live and learn! I'll have to do some research to see if I can find any photos and/or maps showing the detail.

 

Yes, some nice views out of most of the railway offices in York. I've mentioned elsewhere on RMweb that at one time or another I've worked in most of the office buildings: Main HQ, West Offices, Hudson House, Holgate Villa (briefly), but perhaps the most enjoyable (for a host of reasons) was the time I spent in the "African Village", the wooden huts that ran parallel to Tanner Row/Toft Green - do you remember those?

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This book https://www.british-history.ac.uk/rchme/york/vol3

 

has a good plan of the layout of the coal staith and associated Coal depot on age 54 fig. 45 Can also be made out in an amazing aerial view of SW York in 1858 as Plate 8.

The book also has a very good plan of the old station showing the use of all the rooms which were on 3 sides of the platforms. There are also several pages describing the old station. Separately there are some other plans which show parts of the newer railway, including the original museum etc. I visited that 1 March 1969 and had quite forgotten it was in the area behind the Crescent. [ I didn't live nearby for nearly another 30 years] Maps 2 &3

 

Paul

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1 hour ago, hmrspaul said:

This book https://www.british-history.ac.uk/rchme/york/vol3

 

has a good plan of the layout of the coal staith and associated Coal depot on age 54 fig. 45 Can also be made out in an amazing aerial view of SW York in 1858 as Plate 8.

The book also has a very good plan of the old station showing the use of all the rooms which were on 3 sides of the platforms. There are also several pages describing the old station. Separately there are some other plans which show parts of the newer railway, including the original museum etc. I visited that 1 March 1969 and had quite forgotten it was in the area behind the Crescent. [ I didn't live nearby for nearly another 30 years] Maps 2 &3

 

Paul

Many thanks for the link Paul, most useful. The 1858 "aerial view" has been reproduced in the Signalling Centres in the North East: No. 1 York (NERA). 

Fig. 45 is very interesting in that it clearly identifies the sidings etc. The two sidings that Mike (The Stationmaster) referred to, heading off along what are now Station Road and Tanners Moat (to the "south" of the Bar walls), are described as "Coal & Lime Station", but not quite reaching the river. The Coal Depot sidings (to the "north" of the Bar Walls) do reach the river, I wonder if these are the sidings that Mike referred to in his earlier post above?

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It is my opinion that York City Council have absolutely ruined the old station, the vast majority of which cannot now be seen from the bar walls.

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15 hours ago, iands said:

Many thanks for the link Paul, most useful. The 1858 "aerial view" has been reproduced in the Signalling Centres in the North East: No. 1 York (NERA). 

Fig. 45 is very interesting in that it clearly identifies the sidings etc. The two sidings that Mike (The Stationmaster) referred to, heading off along what are now Station Road and Tanners Moat (to the "south" of the Bar walls), are described as "Coal & Lime Station", but not quite reaching the river. The Coal Depot sidings (to the "north" of the Bar Walls) do reach the river, I wonder if these are the sidings that Mike referred to in his earlier post above?

I did find a view which showed them going all the way to the riverside - somewhere on the 'net a good while back.

 

21 hours ago, iands said:

Hi Mike,

Thanks, very interesting comment regarding the two sidings running down to the river bank, presumably along what are now Station Road and Tanner Moat. Born and bred in York but never knew that detail - proves you live and learn! I'll have to do some research to see if I can find any photos and/or maps showing the detail.

 

Yes, some nice views out of most of the railway offices in York. I've mentioned elsewhere on RMweb that at one time or another I've worked in most of the office buildings: Main HQ, West Offices, Hudson House, Holgate Villa (briefly), but perhaps the most enjoyable (for a host of reasons) was the time I spent in the "African Village", the wooden huts that ran parallel to Tanner Row/Toft Green - do you remember those?

I well remember the huts not that I ever went anywhere near those.  In my TLF days I only needed to go to the offices in the old station I mentioned previously although when I was a member of the National Train Planning Systems Group I went to a couple of meetings in the main HQ building including one in the former NER main board room which was a fascinating place (and to be honest much more imposing than the remaining GWR Board Room at Paddington although the building there on the departure side had been somewhat modified by the wartime attention of the Luftwaffe and I think that also had an impact of some of the rooms in the bit adjacent to the area they had demolished).

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1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

I did find a view which showed them going all the way to the riverside - somewhere on the 'net a good while back.

 

I well remember the huts not that I ever went anywhere near those.  In my TLF days I only needed to go to the offices in the old station I mentioned previously although when I was a member of the National Train Planning Systems Group I went to a couple of meetings in the main HQ building including one in the former NER main board room which was a fascinating place (and to be honest much more imposing than the remaining GWR Board Room at Paddington although the building there on the departure side had been somewhat modified by the wartime attention of the Luftwaffe and I think that also had an impact of some of the rooms in the bit adjacent to the area they had demolished).

Yes indeed, the Main HQ boardroom was very imposing and I had attended a few meetings there myself. Seemed a different world altogether with all the portraits hanging on the panelled walls. Very sad to see it in the latter days of Railtrack/early days of NR when it was turned into a makeshift accounts/finance office with desks, computers, filing cabinets etc., strewn all over the place - sometimes modern life and the need "to do business" shows little or no respect for our heritage, especially so when the past efforts of those Gents whose portraits adorned the walls ultimately gave us the railways (or least part of it)  we have and enjoy today.

 

I'll get off my soapbox now. 

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