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What is the German equivalent of Up and Down Lines?


ian
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How do the Germans distinguish between trains travelling in different directions on a stretch of line?

 

In the UK we have Up and Down, the US tends to use Northbound/Southbound or Westbound/Eastbound but I haven't found any indication of what is used in Germany.

 

I suspect it is something very logical, like odd and even train numbers - but I am sure that someone on here will know the correct answer....

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3 hours ago, eastwestdivide said:

Certainly France and Italy use "odd" and "even" to denote the two directions of tracks, but 10 mins of googling in multiple languages failed to find an answer for Germany.

For France  it is 'Pair' for lines towards Paris, 'Impair'  for the other direction, with the occasional exception. I find it a little odd that the Germans don't seem to have a similar system; identifying where one is, and in which direction one is moving has always struck me as pretty fundamental.

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4 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

For France  it is 'Pair' for lines towards Paris, 'Impair'  for the other direction, with the occasional exception. I find it a little odd that the Germans don't seem to have a similar system; identifying where one is, and in which direction one is moving has always struck me as pretty fundamental.

 

 I needed some time to get that with up and downlines... London and Paris are the Center of their countries. In Germany it is a bit different. When the railways started, the UK and France were countries with the biggest city as their capital. But in Germany there was Prussia, Bavaria and all the other smaller countries. That was not a united country like the others. So there was no center or the most important capital. Ok, it was probably Berlin, but don't tell the Bavarians!!!! It's like you tell the scottish people that London is the capital of Scotland!:triniti:

 

I think that's the reason why. The same with Austria, they had Vienna and Budapest as well as other important cities. And here in Switzerland, I mean we are neutral, that would cause some trouble!

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Bit more info on Italy:

According to the PDF at 

https://www.unirc.it/documentazione/materiale_didattico/599_2012_329_16423.pdf

 

Quote

In Italia viene definito binario “pari” quello che viene percorso “legalmente” (da treni con numerazione pari) in direzione sud-nord e est-ovest e binario “dispari” quello che viene percorso “legalmente” (da treni con numerazione dispari) in direzione nord-sud e ovest-est. Per questo motivo si dice che è pari il binario che “va” a Parigi.

i.e in Italy, the "even" tracks run south to north and east to west, while "odd" tracks run north to south and west to east, the same as the even/odd numbering given to train services. For this reason, you say the track "towards" Paris is "even".

I guess they chose Paris as an example of somewhere obviously north-west from anywhere in Italy.

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5 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

I expect the logical Germans can't cope with Up trains running downhill to London for instance and Down trains climbing up hill to leave.

From my experience working with Germans,

sometimes they didn't seem to know whether

they were coming or going anyway :)

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There IS a up- and down system in Germany. This is based on the kilometer panels along the lines. The lines start at a major stations of the system, typically where the local directorate is located.

So increasing kilometer numbering means up and vice versa.

 

Michael

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5 minutes ago, michl080 said:

There IS a up- and down system in Germany. This is based on the kilometer panels along the lines. The lines start at a major stations of the system, typically where the local directorate is located.

So increasing kilometer numbering means up and vice versa.

 

Michael

That would seem to be the converse of the British where the chainage starts at zero.  The datum is almost always London, though there are notable exceptions (the former Midland Railway , originally head-quartered at Derby being one)  Trains travelling Up (in most cases) have progressively decreasing mileage shown on structures and mile-posts, whilst Down trains have increasing numbers, as they move away from zero.

I mentioned exceptions; one is the Channel Tunnel, where the datum for kilometrage is near Westenhanger , as this is where the terminal was originally planned to be when the route was surveyed in the 1970s. When plans changed, the datum remained, so the first KP on the Concession is kp 7.94 (109.55 km from London)

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In the UK, Up and Down refer to the importance of the destination.

 

Travelling from Glasgow to Edinburgh, you are going UP; From either Glasgow or Edinburgh to London, you are still going UP. Edinburgh to Glasgow is DOWN.

 

I know of NO down lines to London outside of the metropolis.

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5 hours ago, michl080 said:

There IS a up- and down system in Germany. This is based on the kilometer panels along the lines. The lines start at a major stations of the system, typically where the local directorate is located.

So increasing kilometer numbering means up and vice versa.

 

Michael

 

Of course, but that's not a up and down line system like in the UK. It just shows the kilometers, I never heard or read someone who is saying: This train is running in the direction of descending kilometers, hehe;). But the up/down and in the USA the east/west is a well-known term also by the public. The kilometer posts are, as I think, more an information for the people working for the railway. So if there is trouble, they can tell: I'm standing on kp 104 and the loco doesn't move anymore (or whatever). Or you can say the track workers WHERE their workplace is. Every railway system, or at least the most, have this. Sounds better than: I'm standing somewhere and the loco doesn't move. I mean, every overland street have kp or mileposts. But that has nothing to do with the up/down-term.

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4 hours ago, JohnDMJ said:

In the UK, Up and Down refer to the importance of the destination.

 

Travelling from Glasgow to Edinburgh, you are going UP; From either Glasgow or Edinburgh to London, you are still going UP. Edinburgh to Glasgow is DOWN.

 

So on the Glasgow to Edinburgh lines, which direction is up?

 

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Sorry, ColinK, did I not make myself clear?

 

Travelling from Glasgow to Edinburgh, you are going UP;

Edited by JohnDMJ
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3 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I thought some places in the UK use north/south/east/westbound as well, if there isn’t obviously a London direction. Obviously London Underground seems to since it’s mainly within London. I’m not sure what Thameslink uses, since it goes into London and then out again.

The London Underground followed American practice (posibly because of where investment in the tube lines came from) with Westbound-Eastbound etc. but they also followed it in other respects such as cars rather than carriages and motormen rather than drivers and I'm pretty sure there were others.

 

Our up -down (like the French, pair-impair (even-odd)  implies a railway system with  a single centre, in our case London and in France, Paris. That gets much triclker in multi-polar countries like the USA.

 

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It appears that there is no direct equivalent.

 

The nearest they have is the train number which, as I guessed, is even one way and odd the other.

 

East-West/South-North - Even numbers (sometimes called 'von' (from))
West-East/North - Odd (sometimes called 'nach' (to))

 

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11 hours ago, JohnDMJ said:

Sorry, ColinK, did I not make myself clear?

 

Travelling from Glasgow to Edinburgh, you are going UP;

 

From Queen St to Edinburgh via Falkirk or Bathgate, yes. But not (entirely) from Central to Edinburgh via Shotts or Carstairs, as from Carstairs to Haymarket East Jc is the Down direction !

 

20 hours ago, JohnDMJ said:

In the UK, Up and Down refer to the importance of the destination.

 

 

Nowadays, not always ! From Glasgow Central to Neilston, a terminus, is the Up direction; The line once continued southwards, and it would have been possible to go from Central to Carlisle and beyond via Neilston, Lugton and Kilmarnock.

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On 08/05/2020 at 12:00, Fat Controller said:

The datum is almost always London, though there are notable exceptions (the former Midland Railway , originally head-quartered at Derby being one) 

Can we squash this myth once and for all?  At least after the re-mileing in Edwardian times, the Midland was miled in a very logical manner starting from St Pancras.  St Pancras to Derby is the Down direction with mileage increasing from zero to St Pancras, although first few hundred yards was truncated by the handover of the train shed to Eurostar.  The route from Derby to Bristol starts from zero at Derby (London Road Junction, not the station) which probably gives rise to the misapprehension, but it just applied the standard practice they adopted for any branch starting at a trailing junction (in the direction of increasing mileage on the "main" line).  

 

The Lancashire and Yorkshire did have their main zero point at their headquarters at Manchester Victoria but this was by no means standard even for companies that didn't serve London.  For example the Caledonian started from Carlisle where I don't believe they even owned the track!  

 

The Great Central London Extension was miled from the north (Manchester London Road via Woodhead) but as far as I'm aware Up has always been towards London.  It's usual for Down to be the direction of increasing mileage but the opposite is by no means rare - Liverpool to Manchester via Chat Moss is another one.  

 

 

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49 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

Can we squash this myth once and for all?  At least after the re-mileing in Edwardian times, the Midland was miled in a very logical manner starting from St Pancras.  St Pancras to Derby is the Down direction with mileage increasing from zero to St Pancras, although first few hundred yards was truncated by the handover of the train shed to Eurostar.  The route from Derby to Bristol starts from zero at Derby (London Road Junction, not the station) which probably gives rise to the misapprehension, but it just applied the standard practice they adopted for any branch starting at a trailing junction (in the direction of increasing mileage on the "main" line).  

 

I sit corrected...

 

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On 08/05/2020 at 20:00, 009 micro modeller said:

 I’m not sure what Thameslink uses, since it goes into London and then out again.

 

The diagrams I had for working on the radio coverage indicate that Farringdon is the changeover location for UP towards London and Down away from London. The track names depend on the routes:

 

North of Farringdon, one travels northwards on the 'Down Moorgate' and southwards on the 'Up Moorgate' as far as St. Pancras International (platforms A and B), after which the line splits.

(1) 'Down Moorgate' and 'Up Moorgate' names remain on towards the Midland Main Line as far as Kentish Town, where the St Pancras track names take over ('Down Fast', 'Up Fast', 'Up & Down Slow', 'Up Moorgate').

(2) 'Down Canal Tunnel' and 'Up Canal Tunnel' run from St. Pancras International (platforms A and B) to Canal Tunnel Junction where they join the King's Cross Lines respectively 'No. 1 Slow' and 'No. 2 Slow'.

(Yes, I know that the Thameslink rebuild at Farringdon means that the NR tracks no longer reach Moorgate from Farringdon).

South of Farringdon one travels southwards on the 'Down Snow Hill', and northwards on the 'Up Snow Hill' as far as Blackfriars, where a whole new set of names appear ('Down Blackfriars Spur', 'Up Blackfriars Spur', 'Down Holborn Fast', 'Up Holborn Fast', 'Down Holborn Slow', 'Up Holborn Slow'.

 

Notwithstanding the 'Up' and 'Down' designations, most of the lines mentioned (except those south of Blackfriars) are bidirectional!

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On 09/05/2020 at 10:18, ian said:

It appears that there is no direct equivalent.

 

The nearest they have is the train number which, as I guessed, is even one way and odd the other.

 

East-West/South-North - Even numbers (sometimes called 'von' (from))
West-East/North - Odd (sometimes called 'nach' (to))

 

 

Hi,

 

The solution is - there indeed is no equivalent. To distingish trains, the terminus is used (e.g. "Hamburg" for a train from Stuttgart to Hamburg, and "Stuttgart" vice versa).

 

In the old days, train numbers were related, e.g. FD 79 Munich-Berlin and FD 80 Berlin-Munich, but such pairs are no longer used.

 

As Germany is a federal state with no real centre like London, Madrid or Paris, a logic like "up" and "down" to and from the capital is totally unknown. This should not surprise in a country where  the largest train stations are in Leipzig, Frankfurt-on-Main and Hanover, the largest airports in Frankfurt and Munich, the largest urban agglomeration still is the Ruhr Valley (from Duisburg to Dortmund, although decreasing population), and not Berlin.   

 

Just the motorway numbering folows a pattern similar to italian trains - even numbered are east-west, odd numbered north-south.

 

Cheers

Mark

Edited by Guardian
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19 minutes ago, Guardian said:

 

Hi,

 

The solution is - there indeed is no equivalent.

 

In the old days, train numbers were related, e.g. FD 79 Munich-Berlin and FD 80 Berlin-Munich, but such pairs are no longer used.

 

As Germany is a federal state with no real centre like London, Madrid or Paris, a logic like "up" and "down" to and from the capital is totally unknown. This should not surprise in a country where  the largest train stations are in Leipzig, Frankfurt-on-Main and Hanover, the largest airports in Frankfurt and Munich, the largest urban agglomeration still is the Ruhr Valley (from Duisburg to Dortmund, although decreasing population), and not Berlin.   

 

Just the motorway numbering folows a pattern similar to italian trains - even numbered are east-west, odd numbered north-south.

 

Cheers

Mark

 

A significant factor with Germany is its division into two states after WW2 and Berlin being (1) an occupied city technically under the administration of the Brits, French, Americans and Soviets plus (2) deep inside what became East Germany. This meant there was no ability to develop develop Berlin as any kind of transport mega hub for the country as a whole and its no surprise that other cities filled the need instead.

 

Had the country been a unified entity post WW2 then arguably transport would have developed quite differently and Berlin itself would have had far more significance globally than it does today - particularly as far as international air travel is concerned.

 

 

Edited by phil-b259
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This might help, an extract from the German Signalling Guide Vol1, published by the German Railway Society. 

 

It's available to buy from the GRS website and covers semaphore signalling.

Subsequent volumes cover colour-light, auxiliary and historic signalling practice.

 

Regards,

Alan

GRS Committee Member. 

IMG_20201119_223904.jpg

IMG_20201119_224141.jpg

Edited by CloggyDog
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