London to Birmingham records?

[Thunderforge]

Following a discussion about the new HS2, I tried to find some figures on past speed records between London and Birmingham.

All I could find was that one of the first services took five and a half hours (and was rope hauled up some of the distance!)

Does anyone know the quickest a Royal Scot might have taken to cover the distance?

 

[kevinlms]

51 minutes ago, Thunderforge said:

Following a discussion about the new HS2, I tried to find some figures on past speed records between London and Birmingham.

All I could find was that one of the first services took five and a half hours (and was rope hauled up some of the distance!)

Does anyone know the quickest a Royal Scot might have taken to cover the distance?

 

Not so sure Royal Scots were normally used on Birmingham trains, but certainly the cable haulage was true.

 

http://www.crht1837.org/history/stationaryengines

 

The LNWR referred to the service as the '2 hour Express', but it was much less journey time than that, through most of its existence.

[Compound2632]

I believe both the LNWR and the GWR ran 2-hour expresses, the latter after the opening of the Bicester cut-off, the former in response to the latter. In both cases they were really Wolverhampton expresses mostly. On the GWR, the top express engines of the day were used - Saints, Stars, and most notably Kings - certainly the high point of my father's Snow Hill spotting days. On the LNWR / LMS / LMR, these were medium-distance expresses - Georges, displaced to the consternation of the men by standard Compounds; I'm not sure what was used after that but I shouldn't think anything larger than a Patriot or Jubilee.

 

Two hours must have been a very tight schedule in steam days, though McConnell's Extra Large Bloomers of 1862 were designed with the aim of demonstrating to the LNWR directors that such a schedule was feasible - the directors were aghast at the extravagance and McConnell resigned. I well remember that for many years, there was a long advertisement for the London trains on the side of the Curzon Street Post Office warehouse, very visible from a cross-city line DMU standing on the Grand Junction flyover (one usually had several minutes to look at it while waiting for a path into New Street). My earliest memory of this, late 70s / early 80s, when the trains were hauled by 86s, is that the message was that the fastest time was 91 minutes. By the late 80s, this was down to 97 minutes; I think someone must have noticed that this was getting embarrassing so by the mid-90s the message was a train every 30 minutes. I've just checked the National Rail website - assuming journey times (as opposed to frequency) is currently unaffected, the fastest up time advertised is 101 minutes and fastest down 104 minutes. However, I think there are now more stops - only International and Coventry back in the 80s.

 

So I suspect 91 minutes is the fastest timetabled journey, now some 40 years ago!

Edited May 9, 2020 by Compound2632
Typos corrected

[BernardTPM]

I believe the fasted scheduled services on the ex-GWR route were 1hr 50 minutes Paddington to Snow Hill, just prior to the WCML electrification.

Edited May 9, 2020 by BernardTPM

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, BernardTPM said:

I believe the fasted scheduled services on the ex-GWR route were 1hr 50 minutes Paddington to Snow Hill, just prior to the WCML electrification.

What was the motive power?

[caradoc]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I've just checked the National Rail website - assuming journey times (as opposed to frequency) is currently unaffected, the fastest up time advertised is 101 minutes and fastest down 104 minutes. However, I think there are now more stops - only International and Coventry back in the 80s.

 

So I suspect 91 minutes is the fastest timetabled journey, now some 40 years ago!

 

The service is in fact severely affected at present, with additional stops,  journey times extended and frequency reduced. The Avanti West Coast paper TT from Dec 19 to May 20 has a pretty much standard timing of 81 minutes Down and 84-85 minutes up, with three trains per hour. So, in normal circumstances, both a faster and more frequent service than at any time in the past.

 

[Compound2632]

Just now, caradoc said:

 

The service is in fact severely affected at present, with additional stops,  journey times extended and frequency reduced. The Avanti West Coast paper TT from Dec 19 to May 20 has a pretty much standard timing of 81 minutes Down and 84-85 minutes up, with three trains per hour. So, in normal circumstances, both a faster and more frequent service than at any time in the past.

 

 

OK, I did wonder - that sounds more like it. Averaging 84 mph. Are those with just Coventry and International stops? 

[caradoc]

They all call at Coventry and International; Of the three per hour one calls at Watford Jc, one at Milton Keynes Central and one at Rugby. So three stops each !

[Compound2632]

41 minutes ago, caradoc said:

They all call at Coventry and International; Of the three per hour one calls at Watford Jc, one at Milton Keynes Central and one at Rugby. So three stops each !

 

Brisk off the mark - that's electric traction for you. I note that the current reduced service makes all three of those stops.

[big jim]

Quickest I’ve ever driven moor st to Marylebone with a service train calling at Solihull, warwick parkway then london was 1:29:50 with a 7 car 168 unit 

 

never broke the 1:30 mark with a 67 but got close at 1:30:25!

 

 

 

 

[BernardTPM]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

What was the motive power?

From 'Modern Railways' October 1962, new Winter timetables "made possible by the introduction of the 2,700 h.p. "Western" diesels": "the 2:10 p.m. non-stop down daily, as well as the 9 a.m. down relief on Mondays, make the journey in a fastest-ever timing of 110 minutes for the 110.6 miles."

Edited May 9, 2020 by BernardTPM

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

The down trains are normally booked to DEPART Coventry 59 mins after leaving Euston, so all normally do one stop (xx03 Eus, Rug, Cov, xx23 Eus. Wfj, Cov and xx43 Eus, Mkc, Cov) and they frequently have to hang around for a couple of mins waiting time. Generally a public time Euston to New Street on the down of 82 mins and with a bit of swift running and no TSRs they could knock that down to 77/78 mins but with zero performance margin...

 

[BernardTPM]

Just had a look at Chiltern Trains. Seems their fastest London to Birmingham is 1hr 39mins, on the face of it faster than was offered in 1962, but the journey (Marylebone to Moor Street) is shorter so the average speed is almost identical to the WR 1962 fastest run - 99 miles in 99 minutes against 110 miles in 110 minutes, however Chiltern Trains do include four intermediate stops (Solihull, Warwick Parkway, Leamington Spa and Banbury) in that time.

[big jim]

When chiltern finished evergreen 2 there was the service I mentioned above that was advertised as 1:30, just had a look and at the moment it’s not running but post lockdown it may be there again, iirc it was 06:55 off moor st 

 

i had the pleasure of working the first one on day 1 of the service and missed the mark by 1 minute due to following a unit from high Wycombe, chilterns then boss Adrien shooter and Micheal portillo were there to greet me on arrival into Marylebone

 

apparently that service lost its KPI (performance measure) if it came to a stand anywhere on route even if it arrived into london on time, after a while you gradually knew where to hold back to not catch the unit out of Wycombe, that one used to stop at beaconsfield then go fast to Marylebone using 3 class 172s so it could accelerate pretty quick, the biggest issue after that was between neasden and Marylebone, on a day without delays you could get greens all the way but one late met service could knock you for time!
 

This may be of interest, or not, ive just found the GPS track I took of the run I mentioned in my above post showing speed and elevation, ignore the maximum speed shown as it triangulated the speed in areas I lost signal such as tunnels

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[602Squadron]

Until the current emergency timetable was introduced, for several years the 07:30 has been timed non-stop Birmingham New Street to Euston in 73 minutes (arr. 08:43). There is no equivalent down service. 

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, 602Squadron said:

Until the current emergency timetable was introduced, for several years the 07:30 has been timed non-stop Birmingham New Street to Euston in 73 minutes (arr. 08:43). There is no equivalent down service. 

 

93 mph average - shows what a difference those three stops make. James McConnell will be looking down, feeling vindicated - yah boo to you, Richard Moon.

 

But evidently after a day in town, no-one's anxious to get back to Brum quickly.

Edited May 13, 2020 by Compound2632

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

Nobody is ever anxious to get to Birmingham! I would imagine its a pathing/set availability issue rather than a commercial decision not to provide a train. The old 1630 Euston-Glasgow which called Preston only fell down a similar hole, when the 1633 Eus-Preston was converted to a five car Voyager to Blackpool the Wigan and Warrington stops were thrown back into the old "Caledonian" and after that three more stops north of Preston were chucked in shifting Glasgow back to 4hr 28min from London.

[Compound2632]

There's also the issue that everyone needs to be in London for that 9:30am meeting but people's business there finishes at different times in the afternoon. 

[luckymucklebackit]

On 10/05/2020 at 10:39, big jim said:

When chiltern finished evergreen 2 there was the service I mentioned above that was advertised as 1:30, just had a look and at the moment it’s not running but post lockdown it may be there again, iirc it was 06:55 off moor st 

 

i had the pleasure of working the first one on day 1 of the service and missed the mark by 1 minute due to following a unit from high Wycombe, chilterns then boss Adrien shooter and Micheal portillo were there to greet me on arrival into Marylebone

 

apparently that service lost its KPI (performance measure) if it came to a stand anywhere on route even if it arrived into london on time, after a while you gradually knew where to hold back to not catch the unit out of Wycombe, that one used to stop at beaconsfield then go fast to Marylebone using 3 class 172s so it could accelerate pretty quick, the biggest issue after that was between neasden and Marylebone, on a day without delays you could get greens all the way but one late met service could knock you for time!
 

This may be of interest, or not, ive just found the GPS track I took of the run I mentioned in my above post showing speed and elevation, ignore the maximum speed shown as it triangulated the speed in areas I lost signal such as tunnels

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is that app available to the general public?

 

Jim

[The Pilotman]

On 13/05/2020 at 10:49, 602Squadron said:

Until the current emergency timetable was introduced, for several years the 07:30 has been timed non-stop Birmingham New Street to Euston in 73 minutes (arr. 08:43). There is no equivalent down service. 

There was, presumably, some recovery time built in there so I suppose it’s quite possible that given a clear run on a good day someone managed it in under 70 minutes. 

[big jim]

On 14/05/2020 at 11:34, luckymucklebackit said:

 

 

Is that app available to the general public?

 

Jim

it was on the Apple App Store but having just has a quick look I can’t see it any more, it was 10 years ago I downloaded it 

 

there are plenty more GPS trackers available on there Now though, don’t know which one is best though 

[The Stationmaster]

On 14/05/2020 at 13:06, Western Aviator said:

There was, presumably, some recovery time built in there so I suppose it’s quite possible that given a clear run on a good day someone managed it in under 70 minutes. 

There was at one time something like 8 minutes or more Recovery Time in the Birmingham - Euston trains, all of it south of Rugby.  Longer distance trains had even more and on one occasion I ran into Euston 20 minutes early during the era of HST power cars being used as test DVTs - with  traction power in use

[602Squadron]

On 14/05/2020 at 13:06, Western Aviator said:

There was, presumably, some recovery time built in there so I suppose it’s quite possible that given a clear run on a good day someone managed it in under 70 minutes. 

Yeah, in many years of using the 07:30 it wasn't unusual to arrive in Euston a minute or two early, but I don't recall doing it in less than 70 minutes. 

[MidlandRed]

On 9 May 2020 at 18:31, BernardTPM said:

I believe the fasted scheduled services on the ex-GWR route were 1hr 50 minutes Paddington to Snow Hill, just prior to the WCML electrification.

 

Does anyone know how quickly the Birmingham blue Pullman service was scheduled? 

[MidlandRed]

On 9 May 2020 at 15:37, Compound2632 said:

I believe both the LNWR and the GWR ran 2-hour expresses, the latter after the opening of the Bicester cut-off, the former in response to the latter. In both cases they were really Wolverhampton expresses mostly. On the GWR, the top express engines of the day were used - Saints, Stars, and most notably Kings - certainly the high point of my father's Snow Hill spotting days. On the LNWR / LMS / LMR, these were medium-distance expresses - Georges, displaced to the consternation of the men by standard Compounds; I'm not sure what was used after that but I shouldn't think anything larger than a Patriot or Jubilee.

 

A number of Brittania Pacifics was allocated to Aston during the early 60s - presumably used on the B'ham to Eustons.