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London to Birmingham records?


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11 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

 

A number of Brittania Pacifics was allocated to Aston during the early 60s - presumably used on the B'ham to Eustons.   

 

Did Aston only provide motive power for workings south of New Street? Was Monument lane responsible for everything northwards? Just asking because I would have thought Manchester and Liverpool workings would have been as likely for these engines.

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26 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Did Aston only provide motive power for workings south of New Street? Was Monument lane responsible for everything northwards? Just asking because I would have thought Manchester and Liverpool workings would have been as likely for these engines.

 

The largest locos ever allocated there was a handful of Black 5s but during the 60s basically 2-6-4T and 0-6-0 (and diesel shunters). So largely suburban passenger and goods locos - with an increasing number of diesel shunters (03, 08 and 11). The diesel units (Met Camm from the Lichfield/ Four Oaks/ Redditch services) were parked in a carriage shed further north on the east side of the line and visible just north of the Ladywood Middleway bridge - later replaced by Soho electric depot even further north on the west side. 

 

So yes the Brits would have been I would think. 

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In the 1950s trains from New Street were normally worked by Bushbury Jubilees. Most trains through there were well within the capabilities of a Black 5 except for the Glasgow /Edinburgh train which usually had a Scot to Crewe and a Stanier Pacific forward from there.The morning down train was often an LMS or SR diesel returning early afternoon. In later years it was often a Stanier Pacific or a Willesden Brit. During the electrification time they went via Northampton, taking up to three hours

 One down service then terminated at New Street, ECS to Kings Norton and loco to Aston for turning and perp for return. Gradually as Electrification spread they were taken over by EE Type 4s.

 

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Thanks - I'd wondered whether Bushbury was involved - there are records and photos of EE Type 4s at both Bushbury and Aston (as well as Derby Type 2 - class 24s) in the early 60s - in fact the southern end of the WCML was a major LM area to see both of these diesel classes in the early 60s

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On 21 May 2020 at 20:31, TheSignalEngineer said:

Bushbury's Jubilees were displaced partly by Scots as the Type 4s started coming to the LMR c1959. Long-term residents I particularly remember seeing regularly on London trains in the late 1950s were 45647/88, 45709/33/34/37/38/41/42.

 

 

Interesting - Bushbury had an allocation of 4 Scots at the end of the 50s, but the last 3 plus a Patriot left early in 1961, the last Jubilees having left earlier than that. 

 

Aston received 9 Brits from the end of 1960/early 1961 and retained a varying allocation until late 1964. I'm wondering whether Aston took over some duties from Bushbury. However I do recall seeing Aston's Brits on fast freight at that time also. 

I also recall seeing examples travelling light engine on the Soho to Perry Barr line, presumably running from New Street to Aston. 

 

Aston's Brits were 1,4,5,16,17,19,21-29,31,43,45-49 (22), though not all there at the same time!

 

As many may know the side of the Curzon Street parcels/Royal Mail building alongside the New Steet approach carried a huge advertisement for the Birmingham - London fastest service after the spring 1967 full electrified service introduction - either 91 or 93 minutes IIRC. Certainly vastly impressive. 

Edited by MidlandRed
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On 21/05/2020 at 17:12, MidlandRed said:

 

Does anyone know how quickly the Birmingham blue Pullman service was scheduled? 

 

Here's the timetable for the introduction of the train in Winter 1960-61:

 

Wolverhampton  LL      dep:       07:00                          London Paddington      dep:   12:10      16:50

Birmingham Snow Hill dep:       07:30      14:30           Leamington Spa            arr:     13:34      18:19

Solihull                            dep:       07:40        ....              Solihull                            arr:        ....         18:44                       

Leamington Spa            dep:       08:00      14:55          Birmingham Snow Hill  arr:     14:05      18:55

London Paddington      arr:        09:35      16:25          Wolverhampton LL        arr:        ....         19:20

 

So, 125 min. for the peak hour services and 115 min. for the "infill" turns. 10 minutes extra running time for a stop at Solihull seems a little excessive.

 

Edited by 602Squadron
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The other thing to bear in mind with this, pre electrification is the impact of the M1 and particularly the new trail blazing Midland Red motorway coach service which started on the day the M1 opened, and received significant publicity. Although not advertised as being particularly quick in comparison with rail, in reality the service took far less than the advertised time, and the steam services compared very unfavourably in terms of modern image and certainly in terms of second as opposed to first class rail travel. 

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On 22/05/2020 at 17:20, MidlandRed said:

Aston received 9 Brits from the end of 1960/early 1961 and retained a varying allocation until late 1964. I'm wondering whether Aston took over some duties from Bushbury. However I do recall seeing Aston's Brits on fast freight at that time also. 

I also recall seeing examples travelling light engine on the Soho to Perry Barr line, presumably running from New Street to Aston. 

Maybe going to turn at Perry Barr or Soho if the turntable wasn't available. Turning a Brit on Aston's turntable would have been a tight fit anyway, as the wheelbase plus the flanges would leave only a few inches at each end. Coronations could occasionally have gone to Aston c1964 after working the morning train from Euston which by then terminated at New Street. They were too long for its turntable.

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16 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Maybe going to turn at Perry Barr or Soho if the turntable wasn't available. Turning a Brit on Aston's turntable would have been a tight fit anyway, as the wheelbase plus the flanges would leave only a few inches at each end. Coronations could occasionally have gone to Aston c1964 after working the morning train from Euston which by then terminated at New Street. They were too long for its turntable.

 

The ones I saw travelling light engine went down the east side of the Perry Barr triangle travelling south to east and then towards Perry Barr station/ Aston. 

 

That route was also used in the  opposite direction by ecs for a Norwich (and Harwich?) train hauled by a Brush type 2 (usually one of the ones uprated to 1600 hp) - quite a rare class for Birmingham at that time (mid 60s) - though looking at Saltley's allocation on BR database through the dieselisation period, they appear to have had several, each allocated a week or so at a time presumably for type training (they were largely Sheffield based locos). 

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On 24/05/2020 at 15:14, MidlandRed said:

That route was also used in the  opposite direction by ecs for a Norwich (and Harwich?) train hauled by a Brush type 2

After Monument Lane closed the ECS for Norwich trains used to be serviced at Duddeston. It would run round the circle via Perry Barr and be held in the Up Through Siding at Monument Lane until its platform at New Street was clear for it to come in. The Brush Type 2s started to become more common in the Birmingham area late 65 /early 66 as steam vanished from the Sheffield area. 

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Ah! the Blue Pullman.  I used to take it occasionally on Monday morning returning to work in London after a weekend at my parents.   Great service from the Pullman staff and, if memory serves me well, the breakfast was excellent.   

 

 

 

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