Auction of P4 fitted RTR modern image items

[great central]

Local auctions are notorious, I've been to several, largely out of idle curiosity and prices paid can usually be well over what you'd reasonably expect, add in commissions and vat they become silly.

The other side is that some things just don't reach their true value. We don't know the circumstances behind this particular auction but it could be a way to raise some much needed cash as a matter of urgency, perhaps as a result of the virus, a bereavement, or some other personal issue?

I went to an enforced shop liquidation auction many years ago, bog standard RTR was fetching well above 'normal' prices whereas some lovely professionally kit built locos barely cost more than an RTR coach, go figure!

[hayfield]

Damo

 

Your process is exactly the same as mine when bidding on eBay, work out the maximum the item is worth to you, deduct all costs and you have your maximum bid.

 

As a buyer you do not think how much the seller receives and the main concern is have I got a good price. My knowledge on RTR is very limited especially when it comes to modern image, but I know decent models are expensive, converting them to P4 is dear. £50 & £56  for a P4 loco is a steal even when you add another £8 for postage. Certainly wholesale prices. As it is most of the locos went for decent money, probable still less than they cost. But  well done a couple of nice items which would be both hard to find in P4 or expensive to replicate

 

 

[sjp23480]

I am glad I didn't list this in the Bargain Hunters thread, just imagine the uproar!  That said I am glad I flagged it and that a couple of you managed to pick up some items that you felt were reasonable value for money. 

 

I regularly visit The Saleroom and must say the markups on this auction were significantly higher than others I have seen.  Was the auctioneer compensating for the absence of in-person bids, given all auctions are limited to online bids?

 

As others have stated, figure out what you are prepared to pay  (including commission, postage, etc) and stick to it. As has been stated many times before, an item is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it, value is so subjective.

 

Steve

[hayfield]

Steve

 

A good spot and interesting thread. Damo in my opinion has got a couple of super buys, other locos went for decent prices

 

The eye opener is firstly the carriage charges, secondly the auction house fees, having said this Damo clearny came out well pleased. 

Credit to the auction house in having an on line presence which even under normal circumstances increases the awareness

 

Thanks for starting the thread

[andyman7]

2 hours ago, Damo666 said:

 

 

I too took the overall commission, VAT and Salesroom surcharges into account before bidding, you’ve got to. Otherwise I wouldn’t have known how much my maximum big should be.

 

I also researched the price of new and second-hand models to get an idea of what their current value might be.

 

I agree, the commission and other charges did appear high, plus the postage too, but I just deducted this from the max figure I was prepared to bid on. As others have said, decide what this should be and never go over it.

 

For future reference, there was a commission and debit card fee and VAT which totalled 29.94%

There was also postage of £21.60 (£18 +VAT) for the first item.

If you bought a second item the postage was a far more reasonable £2.40 (£2 +VAT), so if you bought more than 2 items the relative postage went down per item (still high I agree, but factor this in before bidding).

One other charge was something called ‘Saleroom Internet Surcharge’. What on earth this was for I don’t know, or even why such a charge should exist, but it was there and I knew it beforehand, so again factor this in.

 

So some examples:

A winning bid of £40 actually cost £49.60 before postage.

A winning bid of £45 cost £55.80 before postage.

( I know, this doesn’t correspond to the 29.94% uplift I quoted above, but I’ve taken these final costs from my invoice)

 

I won 3 bids (the 3rd I hadn’t really planned on bidding on, but got caught up in the auction after narrowly missing out on a loco I did bid on).

 

When I look back on what each loco cost me, including the:

·         Commission

·         Card fee

·         Postage and the

·         VAT on all of the above (there doesn’t seem to be any VAT on the actual item, only the Auction House charges)

·         Saleroom Internet Surcharge

The cost per loco was an uplift of between 53% for the lower winning bids to 40% for the higher winning bid. @hayfield you are pretty much spot-on.

For the above percentages I split the postage equally over the 3 locos.

 

HTH in any further auction you may consider, this was my first time.

Damo666 has summarised this correctly - for everyone saying that it's a rip off - no it isn't. But buying at a conventional auction (not ebay) is not a retail activity, it is one of the most ancient ways of selling and is not regulated by consumer law, but instead by that old phrase 'caveat emptor' - let the buyer beware. 

 

No item sells at a rip-off price because the price is dictated by the buyer. It's no good saying it is a rip-off if what you actually mean is that you wouldn't pay that sort of money. It's no good saying 'Hattons have it cheaper' - caveat emptor applies and if another buyer pays over the odds that is not the fault of the auctioneer or the seller, it is down to the buyer having less market knowledge than you.

 

Now that so many auctions are online, too many people equate the hammer price with retail prices. They are not - it is a wholesale price and no experienced auction buyer ever bids without factoring buying fees and postage or the cost of going and getting the stuff. Most auction houses are not set up for shipping or postage, their business model is based on someone turning up, raising their hand and taking the item away so they will do you no favours in getting the stuff to you cheaply. Guess, what, that means the bargains are there for people who will go and get the items themselves (which is what I try and do as far as possible).

 

Estimates should be ignored - some sales set them ridiculously high but unless there's a reserve that doesn't matter because on the day it will only sell for what someone is willing to pay. More often, the estimate will be low, to encourage bids and auction fever. I have paid £400 for a lot with a high estimate of £100, because the prices with commission were still cheaper than ebay/toy fair/model shop. It is all about market knowledge. 

 

Finally, it requires time, effort and work to get bargains at auction. To do so, you need to do the legwork on costs and values; to accept that 95% of the time someone else will pay more; to factor in that everything is sold as seen and untested, but that means that for every item that turns out to have a broken this-or-that, there will be another lot where there is something extra (like a DCC chip) that wasn't mentioned and gives you a bit more than you had factored in.

 

At the end of the day, unless you are a hard bitten trader, it can be fun but should probably be treated like gambling - as in don't spend more than you can afford to lose. On that basis you will generally be pretty satisfied when you pick something up.

[timward55]

I would like to stick up for the role of auction houses particularly for people who want to sell a collection and maybe are not sure of the value. The alternatives are:

 

• Sell it yourself on facebook or ebay etc. Fine if you have the time and enough knowledge to know what the collection is potentially worth.
• Sell to a shop, who will probably offer a smallish % of resale value (I was told about 40% by one shop).
• Sell to a trader - but without being 100% confident of not being ripped off. I know one dealer who bought a large Hornby Dublo collection from a widow for about £150. I bought it off him for £500 and still made a profit.

At least with an auction house you will get a price based on what the market will pay and it is in the auctioneer's interest to maximise the sale price. I think a lot of people are better off selling through this route even with the auction fees.

[andyman7]

35 minutes ago, The Black Prince said:

 

Seems the market to be in is running an auction house, than buying or selling trains! The 'Saleroom Internet Surcharge' is pure greed, especially considering they can't legally open the auction house due to Covid..!

 

Someone did well here but I don't think its anyone buying, or the seller.. 

No it's not - it is the money that the auction house has to pay The Saleroom for processing internet sales. Many of the more savvy auction houses are setting up in-house or contracted internet buying facilities to avoid this fee and encourage online bidding.

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, timward55 said:

I would like to stick up for the role of auction houses particularly for people who want to sell a collection and maybe are not sure of the value. The alternatives are:

 

• Sell it yourself on facebook or ebay etc. Fine if you have the time and enough knowledge to know what the collection is potentially worth.
• Sell to a shop, who will probably offer a smallish % of resale value (I was told about 40% by one shop).
• Sell to a trader - but without being 100% confident of not being ripped off. I know one dealer who bought a large Hornby Dublo collection from a widow for about £150. I bought it off him for £500 and still made a profit.

At least with an auction house you will get a price based on what the market will pay and it is in the auctioneer's interest to maximise the sale price. I think a lot of people are better off selling through this route even with the auction fees.

 

1 hour ago, andyman7 said:

No it's not - it is the money that the auction house has to pay The Saleroom for processing internet sales. Many of the more savvy auction houses are setting up in-house or contracted internet buying facilities to avoid this fee and encourage online bidding.

 

 

The auction house has a completely different cost base, it will have a premises, it handles the stock, uploads the website, gives/sends the stock to the buyer.

 

eBay on the other hand does not have to have a premises to hold the stock,or handle it, seller uploads the items on to the website and sends out the stock, their costs are therefore far smaller. But they give the seller a much wider audience and the seller is likely to obtain a higher price

 

Does the auction house need to charge such high commission rates ?

 

Perhaps there is a business opportunity for some enterprising person to sell collections on eBay on behalf of others for a commission ?

[andyman7]

12 minutes ago, hayfield said:

Does the auction house need to charge such high commission rates ?

 

Perhaps there is a business opportunity for some enterprising person to sell collections on eBay on behalf of others for a commission ?

Auction houses compete in a very crowded market. The increasing use of internet bidding and platforms such as the Saleroom are opening them up to even more competition. There are also other online plaforms including EasyLive that a number of auction houses are starting to use. A vendor is free to shop around for the best commission rates. Remember, a low budget auction house that skimps on promotion can be a worse deal for a seller than a higher commission one that gets higher hammer prices. As for buyers - it's very simple - you factor in the commission cost and reflect it in your bid, there is no point thinking of it as an unnecessary extra.

 

There are already businesses that sell things on ebay on people's behalf. By the time all the fees are added up, there is not much difference in what you pay out compared to selling through a conventional auction house. Model shops selling secondhand will buy in at around half the expected sale price so charge an effective 50% commission.

 

If you want full value for your models, you need to be prepared to sell them yourself, pack and send them, deal with returns or queries etc. If you want someone else to do it properly it takes time and effort and that comes at a price. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Whilst I fully agree with the need to factor in the total price including all costs, this auction had such a wild range of postage costs, so much so, that if you fancied bidding on two locos and split the overall cost between the two, if you only actually won one the cost would get skewed a tad, although in the case of this particular auction the poor prices generally achieved might have got you out of jail.

 

Mike.

 

 

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Whilst I fully agree with the need to factor in the total price including all costs, this auction had such a wild range of postage costs, so much so, that if you fancied bidding on two locos and split the overall cost between the two, if you only actually won one the cost would get skewed a tad, although in the case of this particular auction the poor prices generally achieved might have got you out of jail.

 

Mike.

 

 

 

Certainly in the early lots most of the locos went for reasonable prices, and as said if you won 2 or more lots the cost per loco reduces quite a bit, from memory £18 for first lot, subsequent additional lots £2 each.

 

Retail now suffers high employment costs and I guess as the auction house has to both handle the goods and upload on line details their costs are far higher than sites like eBay.

 

As explained with auction houses its buyer beware, as for eBay the buyer does has some form of recourse through distance selling rules.

 

It would be interesting to see someone  challenge online sales for these online only auctions sales, as there is no chance to see the items in the flesh  

[Bernard Lamb]

Interesting comments.

Clearly the "experts" who have never been in business. auction or other wise have all the answers.

The auction house has to, in many cases, purchase the items, then they have to value and catalogue them and to store them until the auction. This all costs money. That's before they prepare a catalogue on line and in print.

They also are prepared to buy whole collections that might well contain many items that will never sell and are not worth the bother of listing. It is not such a gold mine as some people think.

Two examples, One auction I attended charged  £125 for a catalogue, no catalogue no bidding number and no entry to the auction. This was done as a favour and certainly not as a way to make money. At work we would sell steel scrap. We usually sold it at well below the spot price. However our dealer would always take every ton that we had. It saved us a hell of a lot in storage costs and hassle in doing deals. This is a service that auction houses provide by taking any thing that the clients want to move on. They are in many cases middle men oiling the wheels of business rather than just flogging items at vast mark ups.

Auction houses provide a valuable service. It is a very competitive business. If you think it is easy then have a go.

Bernard

[hayfield]

Bernard

 

Whilst perhaps some auction houses do buy goods to sell, I thought in the main, sellers left their goods with the auction house in the hope the auction house finds a buyer. They are paid a listing fee and the auction house charges a selling and buying commission, as you say if you wish to bid you have to pay for both a catalogue and a bidding slip. If you fail to remove your goods within a specific period you are charged a storage fee by the day. These charges and fees do add up. They also keep the proceeds for a period before reimbursing the seller

 

As all businesses are concerned they provide a service to make money. If you look at average auction house fees, they amount to appx 50% of the sale value. unlike retailers they do not buy stock and look after goods for a limited period, they obviously are not a charity but a profit centre for their owners

 

I have said they have costs which the likes eBay does not, one of the biggest being those relating to employing staff and maintaining a property   

 

Now if you bought a £100 loco from a retailer and was charged £18 plus VAT for postage would you think that was reasonable ? Retailers manage to package and post items at a reasonable cost

 

Catalogues do vary, from the type I have bought from Tring, which is a basic 4 page printed list, to lavishly produced pictorial books which become collectable (I personally would not pay £125 for any book!!)

 

For my money if I could not use my own expertise in selling items I would weigh up carefully the costs of auction and selling to a dealer.

 

As for being an expert. I am no expert in auctions, but been in selling since I was 11 having my own evening paper round selling the Evening Standard and Evening News, then continued in retail and other selling roles for the next 54 years of which 31 years was self employed. May not be an expert but have been in sales all my working life, so I guess as I have never been sacked, so must have learnt a thing or two

 

[rdr]

i've had some amazing deals at auctions, but i've seen many horror stories, far more bad experiences than good.

[hayfield]

RDR

 

I have just come to the realization" Knowledge Is King"

 

I first got interested in model railways 60+ years ago, in my teens I got interested in kits. I gave up with RTR in the 80's so know very little about modern ready to run models

 

I know the area I model in quite well and seem to recognise the value in both kits and the parts they require. A close friend who struggles to find these gems often tells me "you know what you are looking at" I think that's the trick at buying anything second hand.       Know your subject  !!!   Just watch Bargain Hunt

 

Modern ready to run items and DCC I have no idea what they cost or their real value. But show me a kit built loco and I can probably tell you what it would have cost/costs, how much the wheels are, what the gears and motor are worth and would cost etc. Example I just bought  Southeastern finecast M7.  The kit is about £95, Markit wheels are just under £40, motor and gears £25/£35. I won it  for £33 + £3 p&p Photos absolutely awful. I have an unmade body which needs a chassis, I was not worried about the body and even if I have to rebuild the chassis, replace the motor and gears I still had a great deal. As it happens the body is fine and just needed lettering, I will repaint it though.  Simply I saw something others didn't and it happened to be of use to me, to others just a blurred photo

[johndon]

No great surprise to see that a number of locos from this auction have now appeared on eBay, one example here:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ViTrains-V2028-Fitted-with-P4-Wheel-Sets-DCC-Digital-Fitted-DRS-Class-37/114229813003?hash=item1a98a09f0b:g:tgYAAOSwj3NexN5Z

 

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by johndon

[Enterprisingwestern]

3 hours ago, johndon said:

No great surprise to see that a number of locos from this auction have now appeared on eBay, one example here:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ViTrains-V2028-Fitted-with-P4-Wheel-Sets-DCC-Digital-Fitted-DRS-Class-37/114229813003?hash=item1a98a09f0b:g:tgYAAOSwj3NexN5Z

 

 

 

He didn't just buy the one obviously!

 

Mike.

[hayfield]

29 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

He didn't just buy the one obviously!

 

Mike.

 

What's more alarming are these two bits of feedback

 

Didn't get price he wanted so never sent it

Item never arrived.Seller said item is lost but no proof of posting, no refund y

 

There were 8 positive feedbacks as a seller in the past 12 months

[SteveyDee68]

His other auctions - lots of P4 fitted locomotives ... and a LIMA 4 wheel GWR van wagon, with pizza cutter wheels! From the sublime to the ridiculous?!

 

Steve S

[adb968008]

Another aspect to be cautious of in an auction is condition...

 

if they sold as seen, or sold untested.

 

I once bought several locos via an online auction house, which after fees was around £700, when I netted it out, I could have saved £100 just buying via ebay.

 

The kicker was though, that when I tested them, none worked... because they all had their motors & gears removed.. they looked great though online, cost me another £100, and several months before I got them fully usable (I dismantled one).

 

Whats worse was the clue was right there, the auction listed a box lot of spare motors and other bits, which went for just a few quid... I guess a lot of people got stung that day.

 

After that ive never done an online auction house since, forget that.

Edited May 22, 2020 by adb968008

[Adrian Stevenson]

I actually work for a well known auction house in Derbyshire. Been with them 5 years. See my photo.

 

Before I worked there I thought the charges were a rip off. But our overheads are high. 

 

We use the Saleroom but now have got our own online bidding platform which is cheaper to use.

 

My advice is always ask for a "Condition report" on the items you are interested in. Do this in plenty of time before the sale starts. Asking on the morning of the sale is really too late. I will something email a client back with an answer to their question/s or if I feel I can explain in better detail in a conversation I will phone them. Ask for extra images too, but be specific with what you want photographed. Bear in mind the person doing this might not be the relevant specialist valuer but a general saleroom assistant. 

 

Re testing of items: I have never seen this done at our place I must admit. We don't have in house track or controllers set up. 

 

Hope this is of interest and help?

 

Cheers, Ade.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

47 minutes ago, Adrian Stevenson said:

 

Re testing of items: I have never seen this done at our place I must admit. We don't have in house track or controllers set up. 

 

To be fair to auction houses, they couldn't have the resources/facilities/time/staff to be able to test everything that passes through their doors, although relying on a customer's information with no legal redress must make things a tad tricky.

 

Mike.

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Adrian Stevenson said:

I actually work for a well known auction house in Derbyshire. Been with them 5 years. See my photo.

 

Before I worked there I thought the charges were a rip off. But our overheads are high. 

 

We use the Saleroom but now have got our own online bidding platform which is cheaper to use.

 

My advice is always ask for a "Condition report" on the items you are interested in. Do this in plenty of time before the sale starts. Asking on the morning of the sale is really too late. I will something email a client back with an answer to their question/s or if I feel I can explain in better detail in a conversation I will phone them. Ask for extra images too, but be specific with what you want photographed. Bear in mind the person doing this might not be the relevant specialist valuer but a general saleroom assistant. 

 

Re testing of items: I have never seen this done at our place I must admit. We don't have in house track or controllers set up. 

 

Hope this is of interest and help?

 

Cheers, Ade.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ade

 

As I said in an earlier reply, the auction house has a whole host of costs that an online auction has, and look this coming week they have £1 maximum fees, so it could be equally argued for expensive items they also are expensive.

 

As for the condition, I think for expensive items if being sold online or accept online bids material facts should be declared, the auction house could not offer a £35 item stating its silver without a hallmark (or at least testing it), likewise gold irrespective of price. Not having a motor or not working is something material to a model train which is designed to work

 

I remember working for a major retailer where some cheap goods only had a 3 month guarantee and an expensive one 12 months. It was tested in court that a radio is only a radio if it works and likewise a camera is only a camera if it takes photos.  The judgement was that the guarantee should be commensurate to the cost of the item, if a £2 radio fails after 9 months well you have had good use for the money, an expensive camera costing several weeks pay should be expected to last more than 2 years. 

 

eBay gets round this by requiring that the item is described accurately, if not the buyer has recourse. I assume that if the auction house sold me an item describing it was silver or gold and it transpired not to be I have recourse. If I see a boxed up cared for loco for sale with a decent estimate (the auction house has valued it) it should work unless the condition states otherwise. But this is my opinion, that's why I am happy to buy from eBay. Just a thought if the condition is stated both the auction house and seller may find it more profitable.   

[Damo666]

On 22/05/2020 at 11:03, johndon said:

No great surprise to see that a number of locos from this auction have now appeared on eBay, one example here:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ViTrains-V2028-Fitted-with-P4-Wheel-Sets-DCC-Digital-Fitted-DRS-Class-37/114229813003?hash=item1a98a09f0b:g:tgYAAOSwj3NexN5Z

 

I was curious to see what the difference was between the Auction hammer price (plus all fees) and the price on ebay. I should have done this a few days ago as the hammer price has now been removed from the auction website (goes after 10 days), but there were 2 locos that I had saved in my wishlist (which shows the hammer price) that are now on ebay.

 

As the bidder seems to have won several locos (3 out of the first 6 lots) then his/her postage costs would have been £2+VAT on the subsequent winning bids. Using the same excel calculator I used to calculate the limit of my bids before joining the auction I’ve worked out the final cost of these 2 locos plus postage to see what sort of mark-up is been  applied on ebay.

 

Interesting to see that with 1 day and 9 hours to go, only one item has attracted a bid.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

The joys of being an eBay speculator!

No doubt one of our famous friends would have had them up at North of £200, and called them kit built to boot!

 

Mike.