BR A4 Experimental Blue 1948-51

[robmcg]

Hi All,

 

With Hornby now producing another A4 in the 'experimental blue' of 1949-51, as applied to 60024/7/8/9, may I ask if Hornby have got this reasonably 'right'?

 

edit; correction, 1948-50-ish on.

 

I know in the case of the Gresley Hush Hush there has been considerable debate, I feel for you Paul isles, but the photos of 60028 and the 2008 model 60027 show varying colours, not always very complimentary, in advertising, so I wonder if there may be some definitive guidance here on RMweb?

 

I know the lining on the model may be different from the prototypes, but mostly I am curious about the colour hue, too much blue, needs more purple?

 

A couple of photos show the variations on the models for sale.  Opinions invited.

 

 

 

Both the above have been edited by me, mostly de-saturating the colour.

 

This below is unadulterated.

 

 

Somewhere in-between might be more the natural look as per the prototype?

 

Cheers.

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by robmcg
correction

[robmcg]

The nearest I could find to what might be a natural rendition of the colour may be in these shop ad photos?

 

 

 

For comparison a 'standard' BR blue livery 1950.

 

[MikeParkin65]

Just bought the digital version of the new Key Publishing 'bookazine' 'Coats of many colours Rail Liveries  - The British Railway Steam Years'. On page 57 there is a colour pic of 60028 in this blue livery. A very old photo of course and not definitive bu in my view your photo of 60027 is the nearest match - it is certainly not like either version of 60028 above I am sorry to say. 

 

The Key book is a bargain in my view and of course the beauty of a digital version is that you can zoom right in to the images! Available from Pocketmags 

[robmcg]

3 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Just bought the digital version of the new Key Publishing 'bookazine' 'Coats of many colours Rail Liveries  - The British Railway Steam Years'. On page 57 there is a colour pic of 60028 in this blue livery. A very old photo of course and not definitive bu in my view your photo of 60027 is the nearest match - it is certainly not like either version of 60028 above I am sorry to say. 

 

The Key book is a bargain in my view and of course the beauty of a digital version is that you can zoom right in to the images! Available from Pocketmags 

 

Thanks Mike, I will look up and buy  'Coats of many colours Rail Liveries  - The British Railway Steam Years'.

 

Yes I have read that the Hornby colour may in some eyes be a little less red/purple than desirable and I'll look to that first pic of 60027 as a guide.  What a strange colour!  When it was on my screen a friend passed by and said, 'oh that looks good'  and she was a professional print broker!

[Nearholmer]

There was a big debate about this on another thread, and I seem to remember a knowledgeable contributor saying that the pigment used in the original colour is very slightly iridescent, which, if true, might explain why it is such a difficult colour to capture.

[robmcg]

5 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Just bought the digital version of the new Key Publishing 'bookazine' 'Coats of many colours Rail Liveries  - The British Railway Steam Years'. On page 57 there is a colour pic of 60028 in this blue livery. A very old photo of course and not definitive bu in my view your photo of 60027 is the nearest match - it is certainly not like either version of 60028 above I am sorry to say. 

 

The Key book is a bargain in my view and of course the beauty of a digital version is that you can zoom right in to the images! Available from Pocketmags 

 

Well Mike I finally found the book   liveries Vol.3 at Key Publications, not listed under the title you quoted, but the Vol 3 liveries book has the 'coats' bit at the top as a subtitle  but cannot for the life of me work out how to create a digital subscription, website from hell, I'm afraid. I'll try Pocketmags, without any great optimism.  Key want to SEND me books and magazines, nothing on their website directs you to digital subscription, unless I'm blind.

 

Edit, pocketmags have Rail Liveries volume 1 and if you try again, also vol 2   but no volume 3...  I have an account with pocketmags so it's all rather strange and weird.   'Rail Liveries Volume 3' is my search phrase.   

 

Edit 3   success!      I searched pocketmags rail liveries 3 an came up with two direct links to vol.3  my apologies!   

Edited May 12, 2020 by robmcg

[adb968008]

i. With so few locos in the livery,

ii. all of the preserved ones remaining may have very little original material if any to recover (fyi 60008 did recover Apple green in 2013 during its repaint)

iii. memories being around 70 years old, in people at least 80

and..

iv. Pictures being unreliable...

 

I think chances are what ever Hornbys researched, everyone will have an opinion on.

 

with all the above 4 being variables, is there any written (or even a stored research sample) that remains to use as original research ?

[robmcg]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

i. With so few locos in the livery,

ii. all of the preserved ones remaining may have very little original material if any to recover (fyi 60008 did recover Apple green in 2013 during its repaint)

iii. memories being around 70 years old, in people at least 80

and..

iv. Pictures being unreliable...

 

I think chances are what ever Hornbys researched, everyone will have an opinion on.

 

with all the above 4 being variables, is there any written (or even a stored research sample) that remains to use as original research ?

 

I have no idea if there are formal names for such colours.

 

I have however taken a stab with an edited picture of the Rails ad photo, rather heavily edited I might add.

 

I agree Hornby's guess is likely very good, given the variables you so correctly describe.

 

Edited May 12, 2020 by robmcg

[robmcg]

here is part of p.57 of Rail Liveries Volume 3 

 

 

The lining on the A4 seems less prominent than in my guessimate, but who know?

 

Cheers

 

Edited May 12, 2020 by robmcg

[robmcg]

Just out of interest, has Hornby done an LNER post-war blue version with no valences?

 

I think that would be very handsome.

[robmcg]

4 minutes ago, scumcat said:

They did a tender drive one some years ago that came with a plate, but haven’t done it in the newer model strangely I’ve just finished repainting my own.

 

Indeed! Very nice. I see the RCTS has several pics of LNER post war A4s without valences, I wonder if they all had red wheels?   Sorry to be so ignorant on these matters.

[MikeParkin65]

9 hours ago, robmcg said:

 

Well Mike I finally found the book   liveries Vol.3 at Key Publications, not listed under the title you quoted, but the Vol 3 liveries book has the 'coats' bit at the top as a subtitle  but cannot for the life of me work out how to create a digital subscription, website from hell, I'm afraid. I'll try Pocketmags, without any great optimism.  Key want to SEND me books and magazines, nothing on their website directs you to digital subscription, unless I'm blind.

 

Edit, pocketmags have Rail Liveries volume 1 and if you try again, also vol 2   but no volume 3...  I have an account with pocketmags so it's all rather strange and weird.   'Rail Liveries Volume 3' is my search phrase.   

 

Edit 3   success!      I searched pocketmags rail liveries 3 an came up with two direct links to vol.3  my apologies!   

Yes, sorry it isn't the easiest to find - I think I just struck lucky in my first search having seen it advertised in Hornby Magazine. I see Pocket Mags also files it under 'Aviation Specials'!

[Karhedron]

A couple more pics of Experimental blue.

 

 

 

To my eye, both look a bit darker than the Hornby livery but the variation between all the prototype photos really highlight the difficulty of working from 70-year old photos taken in varying lighting conditions.

[maico]

14 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

There was a big debate about this on another thread, and I seem to remember a knowledgeable contributor saying that the pigment used in the original colour is very slightly iridescent, which, if true, might explain why it is such a difficult colour to capture.

 

Do you have a link for that thread I can't seem to find it?

 

The Goldenage models site shows an ultramarine and standard BR blue comparison

 

http://www.goldenagemodels.net/sr-locomotives-merchant-navy-class-gallery.html

Edited May 12, 2020 by maico

[BernardTPM]

Part of the problem with that livery is the way the red affects the blue anyway. The neutral black and white doesn't fight the blue in the same way the red does. Weren't these experimental blues done in 1948 or very early 1949?

[Henry 84F]

It's a very subjective matter and a debate that will last for as long as there are people to debate it. The model of the A4 is very sensitive to light - moreso than standard blue or green - with the hue changing under different conditions. 

 

A while ago, I painted a King into what I thought was a good rendition of the livery (although it's now being primed for a repaint into green). The attached photo demonstrates how that colour changed quite drastically with the light too.

 

[robmcg]

4 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

Part of the problem with that livery is the way the red affects the blue anyway. The neutral black and white doesn't fight the blue in the same way the red does. Weren't these experimental blues done in 1948 or very early 1949?

 

Yes, more reading and experimental blue was from 1948-on  I have edited the original post.

 

Thanks.

[robmcg]

4 hours ago, Henry 84F said:

It's a very subjective matter and a debate that will last for as long as there are people to debate it. The model of the A4 is very sensitive to light - moreso than standard blue or green - with the hue changing under different conditions. 

 

A while ago, I painted a King into what I thought was a good rendition of the livery (although it's now being primed for a repaint into green). The attached photo demonstrates how that colour changed quite drastically with the light too.

 

 

What a lovely rendition of 60028!  Best I've seen of the model. I have bought one and await its arrival from a retailer, but in NZ here we have just emerged from lockdown and couriers and parcel post have four times Xmas volumes.

 

Thanks for the pictures.

 

May I fiddle with your pic of 60028 and perhaps add track and scenery? I'll understand if you demur. Will put anything I do up here, and it will be captioned 'edited from photo by Henry 84F'.

 

Cheers

[Henry 84F]

10 hours ago, robmcg said:

May I fiddle with your pic of 60028 and perhaps add track and scenery? I'll understand if you demur. Will put anything I do up here, and it will be captioned 'edited from photo by Henry 84F'.

 

Cheers

 

Be my guest.

 

Thanks,

Henry

[maico]

I've found Rails of Shefield photographs to be accurate in terms of colour balance whenever I've bought from them. There is a small difference though here, the Mallard photos has a warmer white balance.

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by maico

[robmcg]

13 hours ago, Henry 84F said:

 

Be my guest.

 

Thanks,

Henry

 

Hi Henry,

 

I took a few liberties and tried to get a colour rather more like the old book photos, inaccurate though they may be, but I think it is a very pleasing model, what Hornby A4 isn't? 

 

My model may turn up by courier today or tomorrow but in any event I think the colour would have been in real life just as variable as the vexed BR Brunswick Green was, dirt, ash, weather, age, oxidation and so on. Maybe even more variable given its iridescence.   In short I think that weathering it could be very interesting!

 

 

Quite an impressive engine! 

 

Picture edited from photo by Henry 84F.   Thankyou Henry.

 

Cheers  

Edited May 13, 2020 by robmcg
addition

[Ruffnut Thorston]

8 hours ago, maico said:

I've found Rails of Shefield photographs to be accurate in terms of colour balance whenever I've bought from them. There is a small difference though here, the Mallard photos has a warmer white balance.

<SNIPPED.

 

 

 

Of course, the two locos are in fact different colours...the "purple", and the Standard Blue...

 

I like purple!

[robmcg]

Well my 60028 arrived today and is lovely... an interesting colour indeed.

 

Here is is with mostly daylight a touch of tungsten lamp to add highlights.

 

 

In natural light alone it is unsurprisingly more blue, with less red too. Very slightly at least. 

 

Canon EOS-M camera, standard settings, 8 sec at F29 DIN 100 auto colour balance.

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

On 13/05/2020 at 14:53, maico said:

I've found Rails of Shefield photographs to be accurate in terms of colour balance whenever I've bought from them. There is a small difference though here, the Mallard photos has a warmer white balance.

 

 

I feel that Mallard looks a bit off there and far too dull.

 

The BR Blue is supposed to be about the same colour as Caledonian locomotives.

 

Didcot got it right on 6023 IMHO.

 

 

https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/article.php/75/6023-king-edward-ii

 

 

 

 

Jason

[TomScrut]

On 12/05/2020 at 07:03, robmcg said:

Just out of interest, has Hornby done an LNER post-war blue version with no valences?

 

I think that would be very handsome.

 

The Bittern pack is without valances in LNER livery, although I don't know if it is remotely relevant to post war pre BR.