BR A4 Experimental Blue 1948-51

[JamieR4489]

5 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

The Bittern pack is without valances in LNER livery, although I don't know if it is remotely relevant to post war pre BR.

It's got a double chimney so it would have to be 5, 22, 33 or 34

[Hilux5972]

6 hours ago, JamieR4489 said:

It's got a double chimney so it would have to be 5, 22, 33 or 34

Easy enough to renumber and sell on the extra tender if needed.

[robmcg]

I am considering ways to model and/or photograph a post-war LNER A4 in LNER Blue without skirts but in the meantime an interesting comparison between pre-war LNER blue 4466 'Herring Gull' and our 1948 experimental blue BR 60028.

 

 

 

The difference in colour with variations in lighting is enormous, ... 60028 above is in natural window light, but there is a little editing, motion and wheels an cylinder drains. 

[w4rrn]

Be interesting to see a pic of the current Hornby 60028 along side the early LTD edition Manchester Model fair 60027 Merlin for a colour comparison. 

I do own the Merlin model, but I won't be purchasing the WKW model. 

[robmcg]

From the ads I've seen in shop photos and on Ebay the Hornby experimental blue on 60027 was pretty similar to the current 60028.

 

 

 

[robmcg]

With all this consideration of post-war BR colours it would be nice to have a Hornby A4 in post-war LNER blue without valances as per 60018 'Bittern' with extra tender and double chimney, but in 1946 form, so I concocted one with editing... lovely !

 

 

Very attractive in this livery in my opinion. 

 

edit; I have a feeling that the real thing had raised chrome letter and numbers, but I'm not sure if this was general for A4s, can anyone confirm?

Edited May 18, 2020 by robmcg
addition

[MikeParkin65]

10 hours ago, robmcg said:

With all this consideration of post-war BR colours it would be nice to have a Hornby A4 in post-war LNER blue without valances as per 60018 'Bittern' with extra tender and double chimney, but in 1946 form, so I concocted one with editing... lovely !

 

 

Very attractive in this livery in my opinion. 

 

edit; I have a feeling that the real thing had raised chrome letter and numbers, but I'm not sure if this was general for A4s, can anyone confirm?

No 19 ran in this condition in its second short stint of mainline use as preserved loco - 1971 to 1973 I believe. I remember being  taken by my parents to see it run light engine, tender first though Hessle on a bitterly cold day. And it was about an hour later than expected! I'd love to see a model of No 19 though I think Hornby are more likely to do 4498 in blue as preserved 1967-1973 if they see the market for models from the early preservation era.

[maico]

I had a look through the RAL classic colour chart and that shade of violet blue is not listed. However, if you scrowl right down the page into the Design System+ it closely matches Coronation Blue which I guess Hornby have gone for.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_RAL_colors

 

Here's the aerosol (satin) https://www.yourspraypaints.com/product/ral-design-colour-aerosol-spray-paints/ral-design-300-360/ral-300-40-45-
coronation-blue-aerosol-spray-paint-1k-2k-400ml/

 

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by maico

[samfieldhouse]

Along with 6% of the male population of the UK, I'm severely colourblind so I find colour related discussion genuinely fascinating. I don't think any manufacturer or paint shop will ever win here as there are so many variables; geography, climate, screen and camera calibration, individual perception, chemical make up of paint... 
 

 

[Hilux5972]

18 hours ago, robmcg said:

From the ads I've seen in shop photos and on Ebay the Hornby experimental blue on 60027 was pretty similar to the current 60028.

 

 

 

Interesting to note that Merlin has brass coloured lettering on her nameplate while Walter has silver. 

[JamieR4489]

19 hours ago, robmcg said:

edit; I have a feeling that the real thing had raised chrome letter and numbers, but I'm not sure if this was general for A4s, can anyone confirm?

I think every photo I've seen of a post-war blue A4 has stainless steel letters/numbers.

 

With regard to nameplate colours I think all the engines named after people, the 5 commonwealth and the 2 West Riding Ltd engines had chrome/stainless steel plates and bird names had brass.

[robmcg]

Thanks for those details, JamieR and others.

 

Reverting to 60028 and the experimental blue, I ran the picture of the real thing through a commercial editing program Picasa and it came up with the pic below, and below that my picture of the model...

 

 

 

 

I think Hornby have it pretty 'right'. 

 

edit; look at that curvature on the prototype pic, wouldn't be allowed on a model railway, too sharp.

Edited May 19, 2020 by robmcg
addition

[Hal Nail]

What that highlights for me is that whilst everyone focusses on the shade, what has as much impact is the finish. Flattening the paint to a really smooth surface with extremely fine wet and dry and then a light buffing tends to give any colour a deeper, richer tone. 

[Steamport Southport]

On 18/05/2020 at 10:49, MikeParkin65 said:

No 19 ran in this condition in its second short stint of mainline use as preserved loco - 1971 to 1973 I believe. I remember being  taken by my parents to see it run light engine, tender first though Hessle on a bitterly cold day. And it was about an hour later than expected! I'd love to see a model of No 19 though I think Hornby are more likely to do 4498 in blue as preserved 1967-1973 if they see the market for models from the early preservation era.

 

it's how I remember it at Dinting. One of the first locomotives I ever footplated.

 

Probably why I like big engines rather than small ones was going to Dinting, Carnforth, etc and getting rides either on the footplate or a brake van ride behind one of the giants.

 

I wonder what "elf n safety" would say about taking family groups including toddlers for a quick ride on the footplate nowadays?

 

 

 

Jason

[MikeParkin65]

14 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

it's how I remember it at Dinting. One of the first locomotives I ever footplated.

 

Probably why I like big engines rather than small ones was going to Dinting, Carnforth, etc and getting rides either on the footplate or a brake van ride behind one of the giants.

 

I wonder what "elf n safety" would say about taking family groups including toddlers for a quick ride on the footplate nowadays?

 

 

 

Jason

You’d think a first sight  of a blue A4 would have me as an LNER man but then my parents took me to the NRM just after 46229 had been delivered from Swindon and I’ve been an LMS man ever since

[robmcg]

15 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

You’d think a first sight  of a blue A4 would have me as an LNER man but then my parents took me to the NRM just after 46229 had been delivered from Swindon and I’ve been an LMS man ever since

 

Well, you can hardly see any difference between the two , can you?

 

 

 

cheers 

 

I just bought an A4 2500 Queen of Scots set so for the next wee while I am a Gresley afficionado...  or even Ivatt... 

 

 

Which is a long way from experimental blue, but when you started from this, who would mind?  

 

 

 

Of course post-war and BR changed things...  for better or worse.

 

 

which had to be more cheerful than this...

 

 

or this...

 

 

all of which came from...

 

 

We have to thank Hornby for a lot of fine models!   

 

edit; and Bachmann too..!

Edited May 21, 2020 by robmcg
addition

[maico]

Talking of blue Rob, are you getting the forthcoming Hornby un-rebuilt?

Seems like Azure Blue

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by maico

[robmcg]

It looks excellent and I think suits the class, but doesn't appear to be a Hornby priority in the near term....  maybe I should photo edit a version for fun?

[maico]

I have a feeling another run of SR Malachite Green is due at some point. The first run sold out quickly and I'm guessing blue will too.

[robmcg]

I thank Malachite Green would sell, it was a great era for colour. I think the blue 34024 would be a winner, I personally am no great fan of Malachite Geen, don't quite know why.

 

As to Experimental Blue' (or was it 'purple'?), it looks good in this setting.

 

 

 

 

cheers

Edited May 28, 2020 by robmcg
correction

[robmcg]

I think 60028 was one of the few which did the Edinburgh-King's Cross non-stop when the ECML was cut by storm damage early 50s? via the Waverley Route about 408 miles no engine change, and the crews were very proud of their work. 

Edit; the others were 60012, 22, 27, 29,and 31, between August and September 1948, 60027 and 28 presumably in the 'new' blue livery.

Edited May 29, 2020 by robmcg

[robmcg]

On 22/05/2020 at 01:00, maico said:

Talking of blue Rob, are you getting the forthcoming Hornby un-rebuilt?

Seems like Azure Blue

 

 

 

In anticipation...

 

edited,   very loosely based in parts on Andy Y's lovely pictures of 35028

 

[Ceptic]

On 12/05/2020 at 04:12, robmcg said:

here is part of p.57 of Rail Liveries Volume 3 

 

 

The lining on the A4 seems less prominent than in my guessimate, but who know?

 

Cheers

 

The A4's boiler band lining in that photo is Black + White. Probably that's the reason.

[Ceptic]

 

 

Hi

 

If any of you get the opportunity, have a look at the colour swatches contained within the HMRS publication "Southern Style After Nationalisation, 1948-1964" by John Harvey.
You'll see that the swatch for 'BR Express Locomotive Blue (Merchant Navy class)' is of a much darker hue. 
Azure Blue it ain't.  It's more akin to RAL 5013, Cobalt Blue.      This is the colour that I remember.

 

Also the lining on the Blue MNs was 'Bold'. I.e. 1/4" White + 1 1/4" Black + 1/4". No gaps.

Initially, during the experimental stages on MN No. 35024 East Asiatic Company , this lining was positioned over the top of the upper and lower Red stripes with the centre stripe deleted / painted over with Blue. During the next stage the upper lining was lowered to run beneath the lowest firebox sides' washout plugs and the lower lining raised approx two inches to avoid the row of casing fasteners

 

The late Brian Haresnape describes the 'BR Experimental Blue' colour as 'Dark Blue' A4 pic. of 60028, seen above, on page 25 of his  book 'Railway Liveries BR Steam 1948=1968'. Other descriptions, in the same book range from 'Deep ultramarine blue' in several paragraphs. To quote another on p. 26 :- "The dark blue locomotive livery (an almost purple shade on some ER pacifics) just darkened down to become almost black". The 1949 red lined blue scheme of MN No.35024 is described as 'bizarre', Also noted are suggestions that the blue should be lightened, Caledonian blue, both light and dark for example, are mentioned in the text.

Moving on to the 1949 approved / standard liveries, a paragraph on p. 30 quotes :- "So the colour was modified to a more medium shade -- using Bulleid 'Merchant Navy' Pacific No. 35024 as the guinea pig. (This locomotive underwent three repaints in different shades of blue inside one year !)

Result = 'Medium Blue'

 

Now, if that colour swatch is Medium Blue, it begs the question, How dark was Deep Ultramarine Blue ??

 

I reckon Golden Age Models capture the colours the closest.

 

 

 

Although Graham Farish beat them to it in 00 guage, seventy years ago.

 

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Further conversations

 

[Pufferman]

So, if I wanted to re spray somethig in experimental blue, what would you recommend?