York 1985(ish)

[MarshLane]

Chaps,

Does anyone Have a signalling diagram of York the mid-1980s at all, or know where there is one? I’ve tried the SRS website and general searches on the web.

 

York was resignalled in the early 1950s, 1951 I think, and with the exception of the cattle dock being taken OOU, the York South Roundhouses going and Branches Yard (behind the station) being reduced no much changed until the major remodelling in 1989. 
 

I have a track plan of the Dringhouses - Holgate - Station - York Yard North area, but what I am trying to understand are the routes available from each signal and the displays shown by the Theater Indicators. So signalling diagrams or any route learning material for drivers would be welcome if anyone can help.

 

In addition, does anyone know what Branches Yard was used for in this period? Looking at photos, it seems to have been down to just three or four roads and mainly used for stabling a couple of sets of parcels stock during the day?

 

Rich

[iands]

...... not much changed until the major remodelling in 1989. 

 

There was a significant remodelling of the layout at the north end of York station in 1974 which saw the Waterworks crossing completely removed, severing the connections between platforms 14, 15 & 16 and the Scarborough lines, and also the severing of the Goods lines to York Yard South. 

 

The recently published Signalling Centres in the North East: No. 1 York from Early Days to Rail Operating Centre (North Eastern Railway Association) is a very informative book with lots of information.

 

Also, have a look at the Limit of Shunt website, quite a few Sectional Appendices there that might help with the changes.

[MarshLane]

1 hour ago, iands said:

...... not much changed until the major remodelling in 1989. 

 

There was a significant remodelling of the layout at the north end of York station in 1974 which saw the Waterworks crossing completely removed, severing the connections between platforms 14, 15 & 16 and the Scarborough lines, and also the severing of the Goods lines to York Yard South. 

 

The recently published Signalling Centres in the North East: No. 1 York from Early Days to Rail Operating Centre (North Eastern Railway Association) is a very informative book with lots of information.

 

Also, have a look at the Limit of Shunt website, quite a few Sectional Appendices there that might help with the changes.

 

Ian,

Thanks I knew there was something else, i'd forgotten about the double track link from the Scarborough lines to the west side of the station and Branches Yard.  I'll try and acquire a copy of the NERA book, and the Limit of Shunt website is a new one to me, so i'll dig on that.  Thank you.

 

Rich

[iands]

20 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

 

Ian,

Thanks I knew there was something else, i'd forgotten about the double track link from the Scarborough lines to the west side of the station and Branches Yard.  I'll try and acquire a copy of the NERA book, and the Limit of Shunt website is a new one to me, so i'll dig on that.  Thank you.

 

Rich

Hi Rich, 

it would seem the Limit of Shunt website is down at the moment. I've enquired via a new post on UK Prototype Questions to see if anyone knows if this is just temporary or more long term. 

[russ p]

I have feeling branches yard was also used for civil engineers stuff , I remember going in there 85/86 as a secondman.  

The connection from York yard south to the shed and the north was still in until 89, you used to get an S for Scarborough at yard south and this was known as the Scarborough line but obviously the connection across the north of the station had gone in 74 .

All very sad when you look at what is left today 

[MarshLane]

Hi Russ,

Thanks for the info.  I did wonder about the YYS connection. I have a picture that came off Flickr, that shows a 47 heading towards Branches Yard with a reasonably new rake of HAA hoppers, that I was sure in my mind was mid to late 1980s.  I concluded the likelihood was he was using those roads to head to YYS, although quite why it would not have gone via York Yard North remains a mystery to me.  I can only conclude there was a points failure or a shunt going on at YYN headshunt, and it was quicker and easier to route that way.

 

Just to make sure I have understood correctly then, from the UP Goods or No. 1 Up Goods at YYS, you would get a clear aspect with an 'S' for the Down Scarborough Goods?  Would you then get an 'D' for Depot at the station end of the Down Scarborough Goods, or was a it a feather? Can you remember at all Russ?

 

Rich

[russ p]

As I remember it you got an S at YYS then the next signal next to the north end of branches yard gave you a main aspect with an indication which I cant recall what they were or a sub and an L for the shed

[MarshLane]

21 minutes ago, russ p said:

As I remember it you got an S at YYS then the next signal next to the north end of branches yard gave you a main aspect with an indication which I cant recall what they were or a sub and an L for the shed

 

Russ, 

That is great information to share, many thanks - that is helping to fill some of the gaps in for me.  If any other traincrew reading this can remember any of the indications on signals the mid-1980s (big ask I know!) with the Holgate - York Yard North (via Station or Avoiders) it would be gratefully appreciated.

 

Rich

[russ p]

2 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

 

Russ, 

That is great information to share, many thanks - that is helping to fill some of the gaps in for me.  If any other traincrew reading this can remember any of the indications on signals the mid-1980s (big ask I know!) with the Holgate - York Yard North (via Station or Avoiders) it would be gratefully appreciated.

 

Rich

 

Is there any maps anywhere Rich?

[MarshLane]

Hi Russ,

Not as such, I am still trying to find an official track/signalling plan.  But the best I have is the Quail Map published in 1988.  Its been revised and republished about four times since and this version is well out of date and out of print now, so I don't think there is any infringement by including this (I'll remove if there is)

 

 

Rich

[The Stationmaster]

The 1951 Notice covering the immediate York area for the York power 'box scheme is available on the SRS website but at taht time of course York Yard south was still a mechanical 'box.   I don't know if the notice for the power 'box there is on the website.

[russ p]

21 hours ago, MarshLane said:

Hi Russ,

Not as such, I am still trying to find an official track/signalling plan.  But the best I have is the Quail Map published in 1988.  Its been revised and republished about four times since and this version is well out of date and out of print now, so I don't think there is any infringement by including this (I'll remove if there is)

 

 

Rich

 

That doesn't seem to show everything but by 88 rationalisation had started in ernest.  Branches yard I seem to remember was next to the Scarborough goods lines , you could also go north from the Scarborough goods past the shed but that map doesn't show it 

[iands]

7 minutes ago, russ p said:

 

That doesn't seem to show everything but by 88 rationalisation had started in ernest.  Branches yard I seem to remember was next to the Scarborough goods lines , you could also go north from the Scarborough goods past the shed but that map doesn't show it 

Hi Russ,

You are correct. The map is dated 1988, the Waterworks Junction (allowing direct movements from Branches Yard, as well as Platforms 14, 15 & 16, to the Scarborough lines) was removed in 1974.

[russ p]

1 minute ago, iands said:

Hi Russ,

You are correct. The map is dated 1988, the Waterworks Junction (allowing direct movements from Branches Yard, as well as Platforms 14, 15 & 16, to the Scarborough lines) was removed in 1974.

 

Am I right in thinking that you could still go north after 74 but before 88 from the Scarborough goods lines?

[acg5324]

I have a complete BR Yellow Peril signalling notice for York after the 1950s resignalling....it’s in full colour and enormous. If you’d like some photos of specific areas....let me know. It’s probably 12ft long.

[acg5324]

I have a complete BR Yellow Peril signalling notice for York after the 1950s resignalling....it’s in full colour and enormous. If you’d like some photos of specific areas....let me know. It’s probably 12ft long.

[iands]

1 hour ago, russ p said:

 

Am I right in thinking that you could still go north after 74 but before 88 from the Scarborough goods lines?

If I understand your question correctly, i.e. still possible to go north (towards the MPD/Clifton/ECML towards Skelton) from the Branches/Goods lines after 1974, then the answer is yes (before the mid '80s remodelling did away with the Branches/Goods lines).

 

Hope that helps. 

[russ p]

9 minutes ago, iands said:

If I understand your question correctly, i.e. still possible to go north (towards the MPD/Clifton/ECML towards Skelton) from the Branches/Goods lines after 1974, then the answer is yes (before the mid '80s remodelling did away with the Branches/Goods lines).

 

Hope that helps. 

 

That's what I thought,  cheers 

[MarshLane]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The 1951 Notice covering the immediate York area for the York power 'box scheme is available on the SRS website but at taht time of course York Yard south was still a mechanical 'box.   I don't know if the notice for the power 'box there is on the website.

Hi Mike,

Thanks - I had looked but had missed that totally.  I'll have to go have another look. 

 

 

2 hours ago, russ p said:

 

That doesn't seem to show everything but by 88 rationalisation had started in ernest.  Branches yard I seem to remember was next to the Scarborough goods lines , you could also go north from the Scarborough goods past the shed but that map doesn't show it 

I think by the time this map was drawn, Branches Yard had been reduced to what is referred to as the Fruit Dock Sidings.  In essence, I presume a few lines were single ended and left available for traffic, while the remainder were lifted.

 

This image shows the remains of the yard in 1980, to the left of the station, above the HST.

53A Models/John Turner - Flickr

 

 

1 hour ago, russ p said:

 

Am I right in thinking that you could still go north after 74 but before 88 from the Scarborough goods lines?

 

Yes you could come from the Scarborough Goods, and either go to 'Loco' as you commented earlier, or use what is marked as Line W to join the Up Main and head north.

 

Other than movements from YYS to the Depot - do you remember any other movements that used the Scarborough Goods lines after 74 Russ?  Either occasionally or on a regular basis?

 

IN 1981, the Up and Down Scarborough Lines were still present, as evidenced by this view with an 08 in Branches Yard.  The one thing I do notice Russ, is that the peg at the end of the Scarborough Goods Lines appears to be a three-aspect with subsidiary shunt?  There's no theatre indicator.  Can you remember, did you get the sub to go onto the shed from there?  The earlier map shows the south/eastern exit as the main outward, with the inward at the other end of the shed yard, so presumably the latter was where the indicator would have given an 'L' for Loco?

53A Models/John Turner - Flickr.

 

Interesting this view also shows redundant box vans in the former Cattle Dock Sidings in the far distance, on the opposite side of the freight avoiding lines.

 

Rich

[MarshLane]

1 hour ago, acg5324 said:

I have a complete BR Yellow Peril signalling notice for York after the 1950s resignalling....it’s in full colour and enormous. If you’d like some photos of specific areas....let me know. It’s probably 12ft long.

 

Hello Andy,

That would be very gratefully appreciated. I'll drop you a PM with my email if that's easier?  I am really interested in the area from the south end of Dringhouses through to Skelton, but specifically Holgate Junction to York Yard North (via the station or the goods) so anything that you are able/willing to photograph would be very gratefully received.  Thank you.

 

Rich

[russ p]

5 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

Hi Mike,

Thanks - I had looked but had missed that totally.  I'll have to go have another look. 

 

 

I think by the time this map was drawn, Branches Yard had been reduced to what is referred to as the Fruit Dock Sidings.  In essence, I presume a few lines were single ended and left available for traffic, while the remainder were lifted.

 

This image shows the remains of the yard in 1980, to the left of the station, above the HST.

53A Models/John Turner - Flickr

 

 

 

Yes you could come from the Scarborough Goods, and either go to 'Loco' as you commented earlier, or use what is marked as Line W to join the Up Main and head north.

 

Other than movements from YYS to the Depot - do you remember any other movements that used the Scarborough Goods lines after 74 Russ?  Either occasionally or on a regular basis?

 

IN 1981, the Up and Down Scarborough Lines were still present, as evidenced by this view with an 08 in Branches Yard.  The one thing I do notice Russ, is that the peg at the end of the Scarborough Goods Lines appears to be a three-aspect with subsidiary shunt?  There's no theatre indicator.  Can you remember, did you get the sub to go onto the shed from there?  The earlier map shows the south/eastern exit as the main outward, with the inward at the other end of the shed yard, so presumably the latter was where the indicator would have given an 'L' for Loco?

53A Models/John Turner - Flickr.

 

Interesting this view also shows redundant box vans in the former Cattle Dock Sidings in the far distance, on the opposite side of the freight avoiding lines.

 

Rich

 

 

I think that was the signal that put you on the shed Rich, must of just got a sub.

I believe this area was probably cleared in 87ish as the IECC opened on this site in 88 IIRC

[MarshLane]

2 hours ago, russ p said:

 

Am I right in thinking that you could still go north after 74 but before 88 from the Scarborough goods lines?

 

Russ,

AN example of a '47' hauled MGR having arrived at York on the Up Main, then taking the Scarborough Goods round to York Yard South.

 

Keith Partlow - Flickr

 

Also a shot of Branches Yard in 1984

ExTractorFan - Flickr

 

And a 45 stood alongside the Yard in 1980, presumably awaiting a north or southbound crosscountry working to arrive for a loco-change.

Rossendalian2013  - Flickr.

 

Rich

 

 

[russ p]

I never recall seeing an MGR going round that way but nothing to stop one doing so.

Excellent pictures . As I said earlier in the thread I remember being secondman on what we called pway trains our inbound working was left in yard south and the back working was in branches yard and I'm pretty certain we returned north past the shed

[acg5324]

13 hours ago, MarshLane said:

 

Hello Andy,

That would be very gratefully appreciated. I'll drop you a PM with my email if that's easier?  I am really interested in the area from the south end of Dringhouses through to Skelton, but specifically Holgate Junction to York Yard North (via the station or the goods) so anything that you are able/willing to photograph would be very gratefully received.  Thank you.

 

Rich

I’ll dig it out and take some photos for here....if you...or anyone else needs any higher def images let me know.

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, MarshLane said:

Hi Mike,

Thanks - I had looked but had missed that totally.  I'll have to go have another look. 

 

 

 

 

IN 1981, the Up and Down Scarborough Lines were still present, as evidenced by this view with an 08 in Branches Yard.  The one thing I do notice Russ, is that the peg at the end of the Scarborough Goods Lines appears to be a three-aspect with subsidiary shunt?  There's no theatre indicator.  Can you remember, did you get the sub to go onto the shed from there?  The earlier map shows the south/eastern exit as the main outward, with the inward at the other end of the shed yard, so presumably the latter was where the indicator would have given an 'L' for Loco?

53A Models/John Turner - Flickr.

 

Interesting this view also shows redundant box vans in the former Cattle Dock Sidings in the far distance, on the opposite side of the freight avoiding lines.

 

Rich

The signal on the bracket structure is Y136 and as originally commissioned it had a theatre route indicator showing either 'M' to Down Main or 'S' to Down Scarborough so by the date of the above photo it had no  doubt lost the route to the Down Scarborough so no longer needed the theatre indicator.  the sub had three routes - to either Down Clifton Goods Y195 signal; to Up Clifton Goods Y172 signal, and Down Scarborough Y240 signal.  Thus an engine going to shed would get the sub with no indication of route

 

GPL Y195 was interesting as it read to either Loco Sdg No.1 or GPL Y203 in the Down Station Line which read into the north end of the shed yard via the Loco Inlet line among other routes..