New release of Bachmann wagons

[The Johnster]

It's important to remember that the decision to manufacture (or rather, have manufactured, all Bachmann are really doing is designing and commissioning from Chinese contractors) is influenced by more than just market research about what we say we want.  This and wishlisting plays a part of course, but 'we' (the sort of modellers who frequent the mean cyber-streets of RMweb and similar) are only one aspect even of that market, and perhaps wield influence disproportionate to our size and buying power.  There are also the 'train set' market and collectors to consider.

 

Bachmann also have to assess how easy it is to design the model for production of components and assembly at costs that the market as a whole will bear and that is cost effective enough to be produceable within that unit price; this is the job of the production designers.  Compromise on detail and we won't buy it, include too much detail and we won't pay for it...  

 

My layout is a small BLT run on a pensioner's budget.  It isn't the end of the world to me if B increase the price of a BR standard vanfit from £20 to £25; I only want one or two and even I can manage an extra tenner, on pension day at least.  But if I were buying a rake of 60, that's an extra £300, a different covered container for boiling water in of piscatorial animals even for someone much better off than me!  But the train set and collectors' markets buying patterns are more like mine.  So 'we' are in general more sensitive to price increases than the rest of the market and more likely to complain about them, while not being necessarily the bulk of the buying market.  

 

And of course B are removed from this coalface by the dealers and retailers who as has been pointed out are the real customers.  Once these people have purchased stock to the levels at which they think they can shift it, B's part in the process as far as the market is concerned is over; they've sold the product and hopefully made the profit they expected from it. 

 

So, and bearing in mind my long campaign to get the 94xx to market and howls of protest when it got put back (not long now, Johnster, not long...) I have to ask myself the question 'why should Bachmann or any other manufacturer take any notice of my wishlist ramblings?  I'm only going to reward them with whatever the markup is for one single 94xx; I'm not going to be buying any more of them and my contribution to B's profit from that project is going to be irrelevant'.

 

If I were to wishlist (heaven forfend, I would never do such a thing, says he with fingers crossed behind his back) one of the locos I would want would be a Collett 1936 31xx large prairie with 5'3" wheels and a no.4 boiler.  The class numbered only 10 examples and was largely used on unglamorous banking duties, but Tondu had 3100 and Canton 3105 for the Porthcawl-Cardiff commuter service, which required a loco with sufficient power to get away smartly from the intermediate stops on the SWML to keep out of the way of faster traffic.  A 44xx, another Porthcawl denizen, might be nice as well.  But I reckon it'll be cold day in hell before either is produced because I cannot imagine that there is a market for either of them.  One might argue that the 44xx could sell; it's 'cute' and if similar esoterica such as Adams Radials or Beattie Well Tanks can be made profitably this might as well.

 

The above comments are probably reasonably accurate, but they are a modeller's point of view.  We tend to think that, to sell successfully in sufficient volume for the manufacturers to be interested, a loco, coach, or wagon needs to be one or a combination of a) prototypically produced in large numbers, b) distributed over a large area geographically, c) in service for a long period of time so that it can be produced in different liveries, d) or, in the absence of these factors, cute and/or famous.  In other words, we think in the way we think we would think (eh? what you think you're on about, Johnster) if we were in the position of a manufacturer or commissioner.

 

But real manufacturers/commissioners don't think like that, or they'd soon go out of business.  Their job is primarily to make dividends for their shareholders, and we are simply the means by which they achieve this, and they have other considerations besides making Collett 31xx for me...

 

 

[TomScrut]

20 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

they'd soon go out of business

 

The thing is though, what everybody in the industry would like is to have stock arrive at retailers and fall off the shelves into the hands of customers paying RRP. Not sat around for months on end eventually selling at a heavy discount, or discounted at 10 or 15% before it even gets to the shelf. Whilst the selling is the retailers issue, retailers are going to order more if there is confidence it is going to go quickly.

 

Which of those two scenarios most accurately describe the newbies, and which most accurately describe the old guard?

 

All I am getting at is maybe they do need to take a step back and look at the strategies (which they could have done).

 

What harm would there be in Bachmann going "Who wants some more JJAs? We need to make it worthwhile, declare interest/pre order at this price and we will let you know if we get enough".

 

The exact method used by Dapol with the TPE 68s. No commitment from the manufacturer other than coming up with a price and what it was they were getting made.

 

I just think a method by which all (or almost all) of an entire batch is sold at or near RRP before it even goes into production sounds like good business practice to me.

Edited May 17, 2020 by TomScrut

[The Johnster]

Me too.  But how often does it happen and how does one achieve this result on a reliable and predictable basis?

[spamcan61]

24 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Me too.  But how often does it happen and how does one achieve this result on a reliable and predictable basis?

Across a product range as broad as Hornby / Bachmann's ...

 

IMHO it's fairly easy to be very customer focused when you're an eager new(ish) niche player with a small product portfolio, much trickier / time consuming when you're a high volume manufacturer with 1000+ product lines.

Edited May 17, 2020 by spamcan61

[TomScrut]

49 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Me too.  But how often does it happen and how does one achieve this result on a reliable and predictable basis?

 

Not sure!

 

27 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Across a product range as broad as Hornby / Bachmann's ...

 

IMHO it's fairly easy to be very customer focused when you're a eager new(ish) niche player with a small product portfolio, much trickier / time consuming when you're a high volume manufacturer with 1000+ product lines.

 

I aren't saying this policy should be taken across the board, but the usual excuse people make of "another run of these would be unlikely as they'd be too expensive" sometimes needs giving a try by asking in place of something that might not be as popular. Also try doing wagons etc with multiple number variations so a rake can be bought all at once like Dapol do, or do wagon packs of say 3 like Hornby do.

Edited May 17, 2020 by TomScrut

[The Johnster]

I think the 'usual excuse' is more along the lines of 'we won't do another run of these because they didn't sell and we were left with stock we couldn't shift because we listened to people on RMweb and overestimated demand' rather than the production costs, Tom.  Couple years ago I bought a 3 wagon set of Hornby LNER 21ton double door wooden minerals, all different numbers, and being knocked out cheap because they weren't shifting.  They are currently out of service awaiting new couplings and chassis upgrades to get rid of the moulded handbrake levers, but I doubt H made anything on them when I bought them.

 

This is win win from my point of view on the rare occasion that it happens to an item I'm interested in, but in the long term is bad for the businesses that the hobby depends on to keep going.  Take the 2 big players out of the equation and the variety of RTR on sale is very limited, and the smaller guys are not in a position to capitalise and take up the slack in the short term.  Perhaps one or two might take a punt, but there's a long time between borrowing the cash and getting a return, and you are depending on secondhand toolings if they are available.  Dapol nearly came a cropper with this business model some time ago, and I'm sure the world of capital raising is tougher deze daze.

Edited May 17, 2020 by The Johnster

[TomScrut]

37 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I think the 'usual excuse' is more along the lines of 'we won't do another run of these because they didn't sell and we were left with stock we couldn't shift because we listened to people on RMweb and overestimated demand' rather than the production costs, Tom.

 

Maybe, but doing massive wagons with only one number variation, or doing a one off weathered one (which is neither use not ornament, current HHA being a prime example) is almost giving them the excuse surely? And as I said if they simply ask the question every now and again with getting pre-orders to justify a run then where is the risk?

 

Pardon my ignorance here but the mould work is probably the difficulty as far as MOQ is concerned, not the printing of a number? Make the same amount and have more variations?

 

Just to elaborate on my reasoning RE the HHA, if you want weathered you want more than one. If it's factory weathered renumbering is more difficult anyway. If you already have a weathered rake it's more than likely not factory weathered and therefore won't really match anyway.

 

I don't want to sound like I am being too critical, I know they need large ranges to sustain their needs, I just thought taking a leaf out of some of the more agile player's books and doing some pre order based/crowdfunding/whatever would give people what they want without running risks. It would be a win-win, they make some money or they get to say "told you so, back in your box"

 

It's just I think that as the retail world is getting more and more internet based, not engaging with that is risking being left by the wayside. As far as I am aware they don't even have a Facebook account! At least they are doing well on the technology front in terms of model functionality (as opposed to somebody else who keeps pushing out £150+ modern locos with 8 pin decoders). The critical nature of my thoughts is because I care about them being there for us (and themselves), not because I don't like them!

 

But your post kind of agrees with my point that if they could take orders before making commitment, at RRP, then we would get more of what we want and they (manufacturer and retail) would make more money per item. I know it couldn't happen across a whole range but could be a transitional thing.

Edited May 17, 2020 by TomScrut

[TravisM]

I’m a little disappointed that this thread has gone off topic and talking about costs and Bachmann’s internal politics.  Can we get back to the point I wanted to raise which was what wagon (modern or past eras) most of us would like to see Bachmann re-release, not how much they would cost.

Edited May 17, 2020 by jools1959

[37501]

I would like to see another batch of the ICI Methanol TTA tanks. The first lot disappeared quickly and I haven’t seen any on eBay for a while.

 

John

[TomScrut]

2 hours ago, jools1959 said:

I’m a little disappointed that this thread has gone off topic and talking about costs and Bachmann’s internal politics.  Can we get back to the point I wanted to raise which was what wagon (modern or past eras) most of us would like to see Bachmann re-release, not how much they would cost.

 

Sorry; I thought the viability of and mechanism by which suggestions would come about be quite relevant to the topic.

 

I won't comment further unless there is something relevant to reply to since you have my suggestions already.

Edited May 17, 2020 by TomScrut

[pharrc20]

I was hoping they would have gone on to do the Tiphook PIA/KPA hoppers from the JJA Autoballasters as I believe was the intended plan.

 

Cheers Paul

[rob D2]

15 hours ago, jools1959 said:

I’m a little disappointed that this thread has gone off topic and talking about costs and Bachmann’s internal politics.  Can we get back to the point I wanted to raise which was what wagon (modern or past eras) most of us would like to see Bachmann re-release, not how much they would cost.

“ off topic “ on the Internet ? You’re going to be disappointed alot 

[BR Blue]

3 hours ago, pharrc20 said:

I was hoping they would have gone on to do the Tiphook PIA/KPA hoppers from the JJA Autoballasters as I believe was the intended plan.

 

Cheers Paul

I would welcome that plan too.

[martin_l_jones]

I would have liked a run of some GBRf HYA coal hoppers, but it’s never materialised, plenty of Freightliner and EWS hoppers. And they’ve made so may GBRf 66s with very little to run behind them.

Thankfully at least Dapol have made some GBRf spine wagons and MJA box wagons...

[D9502]

interesting topic guys...

I've spoken with various manufacturer representatives in the past at exhibitions about wagons and generally its what they think will sell. 

 

Quote

The thing is though, what everybody in the industry would like is to have stock arrive at retailers and fall off the shelves into the hands of customers paying RRP. Not sat around for months on end eventually selling at a heavy discount, or discounted at 10 or 15% before it even gets to the shelf. Whilst the selling is the retailers issue, retailers are going to order more if there is confidence it is going to go quickly.

 

Which of those two scenarios most accurately describe the newbies, and which most accurately describe the old guard?

 

So I asked Bachmann whether they would consider the WIA Arbel Fauvel 5x wagon car carrier? They'd already dipped their toe in the market with the STVA IPA car carriers. I argued that Dapol had released the MRA as a 5x wagon set and they seemed to sell so would they consider the WIA?

Their response was that the initial car carrier didn't shift quick enough from traders shelves and the weathered version took longer so i guess it really depends on what they think will shift.

 

There was a Kernow JIA Imerys clay hopper on eBay yesterday made by Dapol, it fetched £73-00!  I guess there are folk out there that will pay those prices.

To be realistic i think the cost of assembly in China would seriously escalate the RRP of the likes of the Bachy Polybulk and Autoballaster. 

 

What's not been done? Well biomass is a big gap, i asked Cavalex, RevolutioN and Accurascale and i don't believe its on their radar unless they're telling fibs...

With the IIA there's a few logos to choose from, Fastline, GBRf etc Check the old rmweb thread in here

 

Otherwise on track plant is a gap, RTR rail grinder, OHLE MPV (like the one based at Swindon), long welded rail train, MOBC and HOBC... look at how quick the yellow coaches disappear from Hornby 

 

ARC hoppers with the LTF25 bogies...

 

Proper length Polybulk,...

[The Johnster]

I am less interested in re-issues of wagons in different liveries, as I am happy to re-livery myself so long as transfers are available, but to be fair this may be because I model steam era when there was much less variation in liveries.  But I welcome any new type of wagon that is produced, especially if it is not easily available in kit form, which these days means Parkside or Kitmaster.  

 

The trade has made enormous progress since the days of Triang or HD, but there are still too many older toolings around with generic incorrect chassis and still far too many imaginary liveries; as I said earlier, I would be happier if this were stipulated on the box.  The sort of people who are happy to buy these would continue to do so (Hornby can always make an honest buck with Coca Cola every xmas, and 'Father's Day' wagons are pretty self explanatory, so fair enough), and a better level of trust between manufacturers and retailers' customers would result.

 

Nothing wrong with wishlisting, it can be a good source of information for marketing departments, and I don't think it is off topic to investigate why such wishlisting may always result in a model being produced despite high scoring in the annual poll, which I am sure the trade reads; it would be daft not to!  But talking to reps at shows, and in agreement with D9502's comment above, it looks as if they have had fingers singed, if not quite burned, by listening to 'us'!

 

Perhaps we could have a wishlist topic, but how the Guardians Of The Site (may the blue bird of happiness tap on their windows) would arrange this as well as and separately from the Poll is another matter.

Edited May 18, 2020 by The Johnster

[TomScrut]

10 minutes ago, D9502 said:

What's not been done? Well biomass is a big gap, i asked Cavalex, RevolutioN and Accurascale and i don't believe its on their radar unless they're telling fibs...

With the IIA there's a few logos to choose from, Fastline, GBRf etc Check the old rmweb thread in here

 

Otherwise on track plant is a gap, RTR rail grinder, OHLE MPV (like the one based at Swindon), long welded rail train, MOBC and HOBC... look at how quick the yellow coaches disappear from Hornby 

 

Good suggestions IMO, but as far as I am aware such as the MPV didn't sell well. Normally yellow stuff does well though if chosen well. I am wondering why Hornby are doing a yellow MK3 DVT TBH.

 

Biomass is a very good one for me, basing my stock around Yorkshire!

 

I'd like some JIAs if they ever do any more as well!

[TomScrut]

15 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

so long as transfers are available

 

And the wagons themselves I'd presume? That's the problem with modern stuff I find

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

20 hours ago, jools1959 said:

... what wagon (modern or past eras) most of us would like to see Bachmann re-release...

I would very much like the Bobol D to be produced, the ancestor of the BCA/BDA still in service. Perhaps Bachmann  might consider this for the centenary of this design's introduction by the LNER, which falls in 2029? (DIY conversion was simple enough when they could be got economically, but at current prices I would now want it 'right'.)

[TomScrut]

3 hours ago, martin_l_jones said:

I would have liked a run of some GBRf HYA coal hoppers, but it’s never materialised, plenty of Freightliner and EWS hoppers. And they’ve made so may GBRf 66s with very little to run behind them.

Thankfully at least Dapol have made some GBRf spine wagons and MJA box wagons...

 

GBRF seem to pull a lot of stuff with other branding on too, but I agree they have a lot of cool wagons with their name on (such as the ones in my post on the first page) and I'd have some of them!

 

Hattons do an FEA in their colours and there are also JNA-Ts in GBRF colours from Revolution (I think these were Kernow exclusive)

[martin_l_jones]

34 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

GBRF seem to pull a lot of stuff with other branding on too, but I agree they have a lot of cool wagons with their name on (such as the ones in my post on the first page) and I'd have some of them!

 

Hattons do an FEA in their colours and there are also JNA-Ts in GBRF colours from Revolution (I think these were Kernow exclusive)

I already have plenty of Dapol GB FEA’s which are nice models and were very good value when first released and the Dapol twin sets of MRAs were also nicely priced at £42.50 a twin set, personally the Revolution JNA’s may well be better detailed but at £56 a wagon are far too expensive in comparison to the similar Dapol wagon.

I do also run my Bachmann and Accurascale Castle Cement tanks behind my GBs which look very nice.

 

I think coal hoppers look like a meaty train.

[The Johnster]

34 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

And the wagons themselves I'd presume? That's the problem with modern stuff I find

Er, yes.  I’m happy to re-livery, and ‘work up’ older wagons by retrofitting better buffers, all metal wheels, and upgraded NEM couplings and mounts, so am equally happy to do this to new releases to get them into the condition I want, appropriate to my timeframe, attacking them with paints and hacksaws.  I will do what is needed to get what I want if it is within my ability, and am unconcerned with resale value.  But lettering and numbering is beyond me, and I need to know there are transfers available before I begin such projects. 
 

As it happens, I’ve just built a Parkside wagon which, unusually for this company, came without couplings.  If I can’t source them from Peco, I’ll adapt from transfers on hand.  

[The Johnster]

14 minutes ago, martin_l_jones said:

I already have plenty of Dapol GB FEA’s which are nice models and were very good value when first released and the Dapol twin sets of MRAs were also nicely priced at £42.50 a twin set, personally the Revolution JNA’s may well be better detailed but at £56 a wagon are far too expensive in comparison to the similar Dapol wagon.

I do also run my Bachmann and Accurascale Castle Cement tanks behind my GBs which look very nice.

 

I think coal hoppers look like a meaty train.

I think cattle wagons look like a meaty train. 
 

Coat?

[tomparryharry]

43 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I think cattle wagons look like a meaty train. 
 

Coat?

 Must be a heavy train.....

 

I'm groaning over here......

[AY Mod]

On 16/05/2020 at 14:45, TomScrut said:

 

The biggest contrast I see is in the PR activities of these companies. Where the person you speak to on FB/RMWeb/wherever is actually somebody who knows what they are talking about and passionate about it. Some of the larger companies you get the impression that the person at the other end of the internet is a run of the mill marketing/PR person who other than it being their job has little to no interest in what they are talking about. The smaller companies it seems it is the exact opposite, they are doing it because they love it.

 

Which is an understandable situation really but just an observation.

 

I do wonder if the industry is turning on its head in some respects, at least with respect to freight rolling stock. I do also think the market is very different for 60s onwards than it is before then. Before then model wagons could almost be all put in a big bag and pulled out one by one at random to build a viable train (an over simplification but hopefully you see what I mean). Therefore making new variations year after year after year works because you can spend £12 on a plank wagon and add it to your pool. Hornby and Bachmann seem to be in this mentality of doing 1 numbered version of a type of wagon every year or so is a good thing to do.

 

After then stuff tends to be in fixed rakes, and so when a rake is complete then the buyer will probably move onto a different rake to build of a different wagon. So doing 4 or 5 numbers of the same wagon every few years makes more sense here than doing 1 every year or two. Like Dapol have been doing with their IOAs and JNAs, not like Bachmann doing 1 weathered HHA like they did last year. Or the newcomers doing enough at once so you can order a rake of different wagons and then probably won't want any more in the future.

 

I think you can order a larger variation of "current" wagons from Revolution than you can from Hornby, and Revolution make sure the project is viable before they cut metal. If there wasn't a market this wouldn't be the case!

 

Then there is also the constant churning out of the same old stuff in general. I aren't suggesting they are idiots, they should know the market better than anyone, but is there a struggle as was mentioned by @34theletterbetweenB&D to feed a monster and therefore a massive range of stuff is needed every year?

 

 

 

Here's a perspective from someone who has reason to feel the above is unfair.

 

Quote

We as modellers have to be careful here what we wish for. Without the likes of Hornby,  Bachmann or PECO supplying the retail trade then the hobby is going to suffer. Some like to see what they are purchasing before removing their wallets be that in a retail shop or at an exhibition. When Hornby tried to go down the road of direct sales all hell broke loose. You need a level playing field which is why Bachmann for example only supply dealers who have proper shops and not those operating out of garden sheds, garages, spare rooms or operating on-line only shops.

 

If every manufacturer sells direct then you can forget having a model shop (even if it is some miles away). You can forget buying at exhibitions as without trade support then exhibitions are going to be few and far between. That ultimately will mean no clubs, most of which rely on an annual exhibition to contribute to their rent, layout building activities etc. The whole hobby will spiral downwards and that will reflect in the viability of magazines (which need advertising etc.). RM Web would not be immune either, so where would that leave us?

 

It is not that long ago that there were shops selling model railways in every town (even if it was a toy / bike / chemist / gift or other shop) rather than the more specialist shops we have today. The real danger (especially after Covid-19) is that there may be even less in future.

 

You have to be pretty dedicated to load up a van every week, fill it with fuel and pay for accommodation to head off for an exhibition every weekend to somewhere in England, Scotland or Wales. We expect such operations to provide face to face customer service with a cheery smile, whilst some on here would rather they didn’t bother - so that they could save a few quid by cutting out their livelihood in order to buy cheaper products directly from the manufacturer.

 

We really are an ungrateful bunch at times!