Ratio 48ft LMS ex Midland Suburban Brake kit

[ianLMS]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Coming on very nicely. Red ends for fully-lined livery...

Thanks for that lol. Oh well, that will be a quick job for over the weekend. 

Edited June 19, 2020 by ianLMS

[ianLMS]

What motive power would you recommend for the Sheffield suburban set in 1939? I have a 1P 0-4-4t, a class 4 2-6-4t to build, jintys, 3f's, 4f's, 1F 0-6-0t to build, Webb coal tank or larger tender loco's like jubilees, patriots, black 5s etc?

[Compound2632]

I would presume a passenger tank engine. I understand Millhouses was the principal passenger shed. In 1945 there were no 2-6-4Ts in the Sheffield area; Millhouses had three Sanier 3MT 2-6-2Ts and five ex-Midland 1P 0-4-4Ts, down from thirteen in 1920. In 1945 there were a small number of 2P, 3P, and 4P 4-4-0s, how were these used? [C. Hawkins & G. Reeve, LMS Engine Sheds Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1981)]. Hopefully others with more knowledge of the period will be along shortly. 

[ianLMS]

In a website called shedbashes it lists around 25 locos at Millhouses in 1939 mostly 2P 4-4-0's, some 0-4-4ts, 1 2-6-4t and a few others.

 

http://shedbashuk.blogspot.com/2013/08/sheffield-millhouses-1955-1961.html?m=1

 

I dont have any 4-4-0's, but i could use either the 2-6-4t or the 1P 0-4-4t i guess. Failing that i will hunt down a 4-4-0 kit.

[ianLMS]

4th and final coach of the set, lined with a bow pen and HMRS decals applied (hopefully the right ones, in all the right places!!).

Will apply decals to the rest over the next few hours/days and get them on the layout! 

 

Thank you all for your help with these. I really appreciated your guidance and encouragement.

 

 

[MJI]

I had a couple of these, I may a well finish and use them. As supplied they are correct for my area.

 

MJT of course that will fix the running.

 

They would be good for my layout if I ran a 1950s day, make a change from blue Peaks and 47s.

 

If they were running in mid 50s what colours would then be in?

 

Thinking of 2P or a 3F or 4F as they tend to do a lot of stopping services.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, MJI said:

I had a couple of these, I may a well finish and use them. As supplied they are correct for my area.

 

If they were running in mid 50s what colours would then be in?

 

Thinking of 2P or a 3F or 4F as they tend to do a lot of stopping services.

 

Birmingham or Manchester South District? The last Manchester set went in October 1947 - perhaps kept as a spare, the other six sets having been withdrawn between October 1938 and September 1944. The Birmingham Area carriages were mostly withdrawn between September 1944 and July 1953. The last complete "Evesham" set (4-compt third brake D552 / third D487 / composite D551 / 4-compt third brake D552) was withdrawn in January 1952, the last "Kings Norton" set (6-compt third brake D501 / third D487 / first D418 / first D418/ third D487 / 6-compt third brake D501) in April 1952, and the last "Walsall" set (6-compt third brake D501 / third D487 / first D418 / 6-compt third brake D501) in July 1953, though other carriages were withdrawn in intervening months. [Ref. R.E. Lacy and G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol 2 (Wild Swan, 1986) appendicies 29 and 30.] I think this reflects that by the early 50s, more modern carriages were in normal use. Here's a 1937 photo showing what looks like a 4-coach set of LMS standard carriages with three all-third strengtheners, a D487 followed by an LMS Period 2 and coming third a non-Midland pre-Grouping arc-roffed carriage - probably ex-LNWR. Exploring the Warwickshire Railways website there are more examples but in the 50s photographers seem to have been focusing on Jubilees on Bristol expresses; W.L. Good was rather more eclectic so the 1920s are better represented.

 

As to livery, that's a difficult question. Full lining ceased around 1934 so by the early 50s, LMS simplified livery is I suppose probable, wartime notwithstanding; BR crimson is perhaps unlikely for carriages scheduled for withdrawal?

 

Terry Essery's Saltley Firing Days has a chapter describing working passenger trains on the Evesham line around the early 50s; the engines he records firing include Fowler 4P 2-6-4Ts and Ivatt 4MT 2-6-0s.

 

 

[MJI]

My stuff is largely WR BR Blue era set around Bristol Birmingham, so a Gloucester set.

 

I will use maroon then and take it from there. WIll be rule oneing to keep in service a bit longer, same as I also have a Western.

 

Since I have them and want a few older trains seems a good idea.

[MJI]

I have interests in the following near me.

 

Lickey route

Honeybourne route

Upton Branch

Ashchurch Evesham Redditch

 

I am investigating the possibilities of modelling either an Evesham loop station or Upton branch station. My main layout is supposed to be Lickey route but I do need buildings (and more track).

 

 

[ianLMS]

On 19/06/2020 at 18:24, ianLMS said:

In a website called shedbashes it lists around 25 locos at Millhouses in 1939 mostly 2P 4-4-0's, some 0-4-4ts, 1 2-6-4t and a few others.

 

http://shedbashuk.blogspot.com/2013/08/sheffield-millhouses-1955-1961.html?m=1

 

I dont have any 4-4-0's, but i could use either the 2-6-4t or the 1P 0-4-4t i guess. Failing that i will hunt down a 4-4-0 kit.

 

I have recently picked up a GEM 4-4-0 LMS Compound kit which should work with the suburban set. I also have a Wills 2-6-4T kit to build, equally suited based on the shed allocation list from 1939. 

 

I picked up a Comet chassis kit for the 4-4-0 but since then have read on RMWeb that the axle spacing is wrong, and really need an Alan Gibson mainframe and coupling rods for it to be right so will wait before building that one!

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, ianLMS said:

 

I have recently picked up a GEM 4-4-0 LMS Compound kit which should work with the suburban set. I also have a Wills 2-6-4T kit to build, equally suited based on the shed allocation list from 1939. 

 

I picked up a Comet chassis kit for the 4-4-0 but since then have read on RMWeb that the axle spacing is wrong, and really need an Alan Gibson mainframe and coupling rods for it to be right so will wait before building that one!

 

Yes. I did the same.

 

The Comet chassis is for the 1980s Hornby model.

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/locomotive/lcp9/

 

Also the Wills/SEF LMS 2-6-4T is the 3 cylinder version and is only suitable for the first 12 or so as it is. The main difference is the cab doors/cut-outs are different and the upper bunker slopes in on the later ones. Easy to change though.

 

Good news though. The Comet 2-6-4T chassis fits.

 

 

Jason

[ianLMS]

I also obtained a Nu-cast 2 cyl 2-6-4T so i should be covered!!

[MJI]

I am going to build a set of these in 1950 condition.

 

Would they be worn LMS or BR Crimson?

 

I know would be near scrapping.

[chrisf]

As BR crimson was only introduced in 1949 I think it more likely that they would still be in LMS livery.

 

Chris

[Compound2632]

Just now, MJI said:

I am going to build a set of these in 1950 condition.

 

Would they be worn LMS or BR Crimson?

 

Nobody knows, as far as I can see. I think the only honest answer is "yes".

[MJI]

I have seen piccies of them in service but late LMS.

 

So Maroon basic lining M on the end of the numbers and grot them.

 

Will be 4 in total for a planned WR ex LMS area. And yes they are correct for area, but went about 2 or 3 years too early.

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, MJI said:

Will be 4 in total for a planned WR ex LMS area. And yes they are correct for area, but went about 2 or 3 years too early.

 

Gloucester Loop line (Redditch - Evesham - Ashchurch). When was that transferred to the WR?

[bécasse]

47 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Gloucester Loop line (Redditch - Evesham - Ashchurch). When was that transferred to the WR?

Surely it was only transferred to the WR during the 1950s for commercial and engineering purposes (so any buildings repainted acquired brown and cream paint - and any new totems were brown too), but remained in the Midland operating area.

[MJI]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Gloucester Loop line (Redditch - Evesham - Ashchurch). When was that transferred to the WR?

 

Ashchurch to Gloucester as well.

 

Bits of it were very WR, GWR locos on the ex MR lines. The whole area was mixed up. It is fascinating.

 

My second oldest railway memory is Warship on blue grey maroon mix of Mark 1s

 

 

Edited August 20, 2020 by MJI

[MJI]

One final question.

 

Were these converted to electric lighting, and if so what changed externally?

 

Thanks

 

Martin

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, MJI said:

Were these converted to electric lighting, and if so what changed externally?

 

This photograph shows a Birmingham area (Evesham line) set converted to electric lighting - note battery boxes. Are these one side only, or both sides, mounted to the left of the kingpost on each side? I suspect that the other main difference is that the topedo ventilators are the only roof furniture. Note also that, in accordance with LMS practice, the lower stepboards have been removed except at the brake ends.

 

Although this photo is captioned c. 1924, it must be after Feb 1926 when No. 2038 was rebuilt with a superheated Belpaire boiler. Ignore the remark about elliptical roofs - this is the 1907/8 arc roof stock per Ratio. The bogie van at the back is ex-LNWR.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Compound2632

[ianLMS]

Almost finished with the loco to complete the Sheffield set. Waiting for new wheels and the paint shop!

 

Hornby body with a few mods on a Comet chassis.

 

 

[Aire Head]

On 13/05/2020 at 11:31, Compound2632 said:

there is evidence that some sets went new to the Bradford area, with at least two sets assigned to Keighley and Worth Valley services [2,4]. Withdrawn late 40s to late 50s

 

On 17/05/2020 at 14:25, Compound2632 said:

 

A further difficult question is whether those carriages surviving in service into the 1950s were repainted BR crimson.

 

This might be miles off and hope Ian forgives me for highjacking his thread but I was trying to establish the indentity of these coaches from a video of Keighley in 1956.

 

It has been suggested that they are of a Nottingham set but wondered if they could perhaps be one of the "Sheffield" sets assigned to Bradford.

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

This might be miles off and hope Ian forgives me for highjacking his thread but I was trying to establish the indentity of these coaches from a video of Keighley in 1956.

 

It has been suggested that they are of a Nottingham set but wondered if they could perhaps be one of the "Sheffield" sets assigned to Bradford.

 

I agree with whoever suggested that this is a Nottingham set. The six panels at the ends indicate 9'0" rather than 8'6" width but the real tell-tale is the inwards opening guard's door. 

 

Lacy & Dow list the Nottingham sets and the Sheffield sets as withdrawn between 1955 and 1958. Therefore of a Nottingham set could be in BR crimson in 1956, so could a Sheffield set. That doesn't quite help in establishing how soon after the adoption of the BR crimson livery they were repainted!

[Aire Head]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

That doesn't quite help in establishing how soon after the adoption of the BR crimson livery they were repainted!

 

I'm not even convinced that even BR knew what was painted in what and when at that time either.