Shot down by the wife then ..............

[Jeff Smith]

Just a couple of points.  Are the locos you have bought DC only and what type of controller will you be using?

With double track will you be running two trains simultaneously?  I'm thinking that a single line with passing loop might be more interesting to operate.

[Chilly]

Hi Jeff

 

Plan is DC trains only of which I have bought 10 in last 5 weeks all based on those at the NYMR which runs from Pickering to Whitby.

 

https://www.nymr.co.uk/

 

Running 2 trains simultaneously is wrong for that heritage line but hey it is concept only and I like the idea of 2 going from end to end.

 

The controller considered is Gaugemaster.

 

I am too far into this plan to change now, almost there with the help of Chimer......

 

Chilly 

[Jeff Smith]

Gaugemaster controllers are very good.  I have had a single track controller, converted to 110v, for over thirty years, although admittedly not in continuous use during that time.  And I believe good for coreless motors which some new models have.

 

Having settled on your track plan you will next have to figure out the DC wiring plan.  Please pick Electrofrog points with polarity switching (do not rely on the blade contact), and if they are not already so make them self isolating.

[Chilly]

Hi Jeff

 

Every point, crossover will be electrfrog apart from the double switch as Peco don't do them in Code75 for some reason.

 

The wiring will be a challenge but should also be a learning experience so all good and with help from this forum should work out ok he said hopefully.

 

Not sure if any of my loco's have coreless motors I will have a look at the diagrams.

 

Guagemaster seem to be the ones to go for, just need the shops to get stock back in.

 

Chilly 

[Chimer]

Before we get too deep into this, you need to be aware that there a lots of ways of skinning these cats, and while I’m reasonably confident that anything I tell you will work, others are likely to come up with alternatives that they are absolutely certain are better – and they may be right!

 

There are two aspects to the electrics for this layout, as I see it.  One is dividing the trackwork up into electrically independent sections in such a way that you can actually get your locos / trains to do the things you want them to do, and the other is working out how and exactly where you need to feed power to the tracks and use insulated rail joiners (IRJs) to avoid dead tracks and short circuits.  And I should say at this point that if you were to go DCC, the first aspect would go away completely, as DCC ops don’t require this sort of sectioning; and if you were to use insulfrog points, the second aspect would be significantly simplified as they are more forgiving – but also not so conducive to smooth running.

 

So, to “cab control” which I mentioned in passing many posts ago.  The idea is that you split the layout into a number of sections, which can each be switched to be driven by any controller.  The switching is arranged so that several sections can be linked to one controller at the same time (here all sections are shown switched to Controller 1), but two controllers can never be linked to the same track at the same time.  Here’s a diagram showing 2 controllers and 3 sections.  The two arrowed lines heading away from the central switch are for further connections elsewhere on Section 2.  DPDT stands for "Double Pole Double Throw" which is the type of switch you need - with a centre off position.

 

 

To begin with, let’s split your layout into just 4 sections (you’ll need more than that eventually though) – Top station (Section A), Down line (B), Up line (C), Bottom station (D).  To get a train from Top station to Bottom station, you switch sections A, B and D to controller 1 and use C1 to drive it all the way.  No big deal.  But if you start off with just sections A and B switched to C1, and sections C and D switched to C2, you can start two trains off simultaneously from the two stations.  And once the trains have cleared their departure stations, you can switch section A to C2, and section D to C1, so the trains can complete their journeys using the same controller throughout.

 

It gets more complicated if you want (as you probably will) to have one train arrive at a station as another departs.  For this you have to split the station into a number of sections, possibly just two (arrivals side and departures side) but more likely one for each platform and two more for the arrival and departure sides of the station throat.  So to get a train into, say, platform 1 at the top station, you would need the Up line, Arrivals throat, and Platform 1 switched to the appropriate controller.

 

Another complication (and this I'm not certain about) is that I believe a double slip is best treated as a separate section in its own right.  Need someone else's input here.

 

If you were using DCC, you would just assign one of the two train engines to each of the controllers and drive.  No sections needed.  With the added bonus (?) that you could send one of them down the wrong line so they collide at speed.  Can’t do that with DC …….

 

Your brain is probably hurting by now, and my typing fingers are tired.  If you’re OK with the story so far, I can do another episode tomorrow.  By which time I'll have worked out where to go next!

[Chilly]

Hi Chimer

 

I will digest this further after a beer, seem to think clearer with a beer but what does appear to becoming apparent is the advantage for my layout to be DCC rather than DC and if that is the case so be it I will get the trains chipped.

 

Again I look forward to the next instalment and cannot but commend your for your extremely helpful input, PS I am leaning towards the 4 station track above.

 

Thanks Chilly 

[Chimer]

If you're really thinking about DCC I'll make the next instalment wiring basics, not more on cab control.  For a loco-heavy layout I do think DCC is probably the sensible approach if you can bear the cost, but as I've never used it myself I'll not be contributing to the 200 pages of debate that will ensue when you ask "which system should I use?" .  In fact, better not to ask that here, but first to have a look at the "DCC questions" section of the forum where 100 others have asked that exact same question.

 

All the best

 

Chris 

[Jeff Smith]

My On30 DCC layout was wired so that all the sidings and main line were live all the time.  This was in case I moved into sound so that a stationary engine in a siding could still have sound and lights.  The frogs were all switched.  So you could attempt to drive an engine against the point but it would short out and stop.

 

For my very modest DC terminus the frogs are switched which also then powers or isolates the siding.

[Chilly]

5 hours ago, Chimer said:

If you're really thinking about DCC I'll make the next instalment wiring basics, not more on cab control.  For a loco-heavy layout I do think DCC is probably the sensible approach if you can bear the cost, but as I've never used it myself I'll not be contributing to the 200 pages of debate that will ensue when you ask "which system should I use?" .  In fact, better not to ask that here, but first to have a look at the "DCC questions" section of the forum where 100 others have asked that exact same question.

 

All the best

 

Chris 

Hi Chimer

 

You have guided me so far so I think DCC is the way forward my trains are a mixture of Hornby and Bachmann all DCC ready what controller would you recommend? Subjective I know but once down it will stay down.

 

Again indebted

 

Chilly 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Chilly

[Jeff Smith]

My only experience was with a Digitrax Zephyr starter set but not good for your projected layout as you will need a walkabout hand held.

I would start looking at the Gaugemaster Prodigy range which appears to be Gaugemaster version of MRC Prodigy range.

[Zomboid]

You'll find that everyone will have their own recommendations for a DCC system. And in that sense, everyone is right because there are subjective elements to the decision.

 

Personally I would suggest you get one that can be connected to WiFi and controlled by Engine Driver on an Android device (there is an apple equivalent but I don't know what it's called), since then you don't have to buy loads of controllers if you want other people to come and operate the layout.

 

I use a cheap low power sprog and a laptop running JMRI to provide the interface for my tiny layout, but that wouldn't be up to the job for a layout as big as yours will be. You can get higher power sprogs and power boosters to upgrade the low power ones, but I've no experience of them so can't say whether they're any good.

[Chimer]

10 hours ago, Chilly said:

Hi Chimer

 

You have guided me so far so I think DCC is the way forward my trains are a mixture of Hornby and Bachmann all DCC ready what controller would you recommend? Subjective I know but once down it will stay down.

 

Again indebted

 

Chilly 

 

I did say …..

 

15 hours ago, Chimer said:

If you're really thinking about DCC I'll make the next instalment wiring basics, not more on cab control.  For a loco-heavy layout I do think DCC is probably the sensible approach if you can bear the cost, but as I've never used it myself I'll not be contributing to the 200 pages of debate that will ensue when you ask "which system should I use?" .  In fact, better not to ask that here, but first to have a look at the "DCC questions" section of the forum where 100 others have asked that exact same question.

 

 

Sorry!

[Chilly]

Hi Chimer

 

Understood on the which system aspect, but DCC wiring basics would be good ……….

 

Set my sights on the 4 platform layout above and with DCC now the plan it does open up a lot more options with Loco movement.  

 

Thanks Chilly

[Chimer]

OK, all from what I've picked up here but never done myself ……....  so follow at your own risk .

 

From the power source, which isn't a controller, run two comparatively heavy wires the full length of the layout (called bus wires).  Let's say one is red and one is black.  Then everywhere you need to take power to the tracks, you use short lighter wires (droppers) connected to the bus wires at one end and the track at the other.  Where the connection is to the rail nearer the wall, use a red dropper connected to the red bus, and for the rail nearer the centre of the room, black connected to black.  Note I don't mean the track nearer the wall, every track has two rails and it's the rail I'm interested in.  Lots of discussions on here already about how best to connect the droppers to the bus - searching for "suitcase connector" is an easy way to find them - and what weights of wire to use.  All in the DCC questions section.

 

The usual advice on here is to run two droppers (one red, one black) to every single piece of track so you are not relying on the rail joiners to conduct electricity.  Similarly, the advice is always to wire up the frogs of electrofrog points to a switch connected to the point motor or tiebar, so you don't rely on the point blades for conduction.  Trickier if you're not using a point motor. 

 

Personally, at least initially while you're finding out whether you actually like what you've planned, I wouldn't bother with droppers from sidings and points, or wiring the frogs.  And as discussed earlier, I wouldn't use point motors at that stage either.  Others will disagree vehemently 

 

And finally, absolutely basic and not DCC related, you need to use insulated rail joiners (IRJs) on the frog rails of most points (all points if you follow the advice to wire every piece of track) to prevent short circuits (whichever polarity the frog is at any time, one of the rails approaching the frog will be of the opposite polarity).

 

Best of luck!

[Jeff Smith]

An alternative to having two main bus wires, which can mean having fairly long runs from each dropper to the appropriate bus, is to effectively have busses under each track with short droppers.  This actually duplicates the rails but under the baseboard.  So the build sequence is as follows:-

1) Fix down the track with provision under the points for whatever polarity switching and motor you plan to use.  Don't forget to use isolating joiners where necessary.

2) Make lots of droppers from uninsulated tinned copper single core wire (24AWG = 0.5mm) about 100mm long with one end bent at 90° for about 3mm - this will fit into the rail web for soldering.

3) Drill 1mm holes wherever you want a dropper.  On the inside of the rail nearest you and the outside of the other rail.  In other words on the non-viewing side.

4) Push a dropper through a hole and push the bent end into the web parallel to the web and bent over the rail foot.  It should stay in place while you solder - use a hot iron and be quick to prevent too much heat melting the plastic rail fixing.  Try and get the dropper on the inside of the nearest rail as low as possible on the web to prevent fouling the wheel flanges.

5) There are a couple of ways to complete the actual connecting of all the droppers.  You could use small brass wood screws screwed in about halfway adjacent to each dropper to solder the dropper to, and then join up all the droppers of one polarity using insulated multi-strand coloured hook-up wire.  Or you could forego the screws and just solder the droppers to bared areas of supported hook-up wire.  Don't connect the droppers from the frog and point blades as these will need to be connected to your polarity switches.

6) Join all the busses together so the whole layout can be connected at one point to the DCC power output.

 

Some would recommend two droppers per rail piece for reliability.  But if one breaks you won't know until the second does so probably not worth the effort.

 

For point operation you could use Tortoise or Cobalt type slow motors with built in polarity switching.  These are expensive but good.  On my DCC layout I used manual polarity switch machines (Blue Point) operated by push-pull rods from the edge of the baseboard.

 

For DCC you will need a programming track to set your loco operating number and maybe some of the operating parameters  This can be just an odd length of track connected to the programming outputs or you could build it into the layout on the end of a siding using insulating joiners.

 

 

[Chimer]

15 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

An alternative to having two main bus wires, which can mean having fairly long runs from each dropper to the appropriate bus, is to effectively have busses under each track with short droppers.  This actually duplicates the rails but under the baseboard.  

 

 

That's exactly what I meant by "run two (bus) wires the length of the baseboard" and "short, lighter wires (droppers)"

[Jeff Smith]

No, I think you missed the point.  You proposed only two bus wires.  If they were running up the centre of a two foot wide board then droppers from track at the edge will be getting on for a foot long.

 

i was describing two bus wires under each track so a board with four tracks would have four pairs of bus wires each directly below the track with very short droppers.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Jeff Smith

[Zomboid]

I've seen photos of someone actually sticking track to the underside of the board to use as the buswires. Struck me as quite a good idea.

[Jeff Smith]

4 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

I've seen photos of someone actually sticking track to the underside of the board to use as the buswires. Struck me as quite a good idea.

 

Ho Ho, I expect the track on the underside had rail joiners as well........

[Chilly]

If I am reading the above correct the DCC will simplify a lot of things, no sections etc  

 

The DCC system will need to be able to handle at least 4 trains (perhaps 3 moving at the same time - 2 on main line and 1 in sidings), 22 points, 1 double slip and a crossover.

 

Thanks Chilly

[Zomboid]

Don't fall into the all or nothing trap. You can, if you want, control turnouts via DCC, but just because it's controlling the trains doesn't mean it has to do anything else. The points on my tiny layout are switched by prodding then across with my uncoupling skewer or finger. You could also have point motors controlled as per a DC system if you like. I personally wouldn't use DCC point control unless I was going for more extensive computer controlled automation, as it's much more of a faff to use than the "manual digital" system I use or a conventional DC style system. Not to mention the need to buy and setup however many additional decoders for point motors. But you can if you like.

[Jeff Smith]

Although I had a DCC system my layout was not really big enough to operate two trains at a time so don't understand how this works.  I assume you set one going then switch to another and the first will just keep going until you re-select it.  Or do you need a throttle for each one - those familiar will no doubt jump in here.

[Chilly]

Good point Zomboid

 

The points remain DC but the track is DCC, this would presumably reduce the required capability for the DCC system controller/power as the max loco's I can see moving is 4 anyone time. As you can tell I am easily bamboozled, if I have say 4 trains moving I will need to switch between them on the system to control them unless I have say 4 standalone controllers plugged into the system then 4 independent actions simultaneously can be undertaken by say 4 people, is this correct?

 

Chilly 

[ITG]

DCC systems can operate multiple locos at once through a single (but you can have multiple if you wish) controller. Select loco 1, and set it going at speed x on up track; select loco 2 and do likewise on down track; select loco 3 and shunt yard. Stop loco 3, to bring loco 1 into platform, etc.

Incidentally, same principle applies to DCC points whilst operating locos.

 

The challenge is, if one doesn’t have a continuous run (to let locos 1 & 2 circle), juggling control between locos in time to avoid crashing through the platform end. That’s where multiple controllers could help, but then of course one needs multiple people to operate the layout!

[Chimer]

I agree with everything Zomboid says.  Re your last question, again with the "as I understand it" caveat, it is possible, using a single DCC controller, to:

 

1.  Select loco A

2.  Set it running 

3.  Select loco B - loco A will keep doing whatever it happens to be doing, you now have no control over it.

4.  Set loco B running

5.  Select loco C - locos A & B will keep doing whatever they are doing, you have no control over either of them.

etc, etc, etc to the limits of the system.

 

Alternatively, you can have several controllers, select one loco for each of them and have independent control over all of them.

 

Or some sort of half-way house, so you could have (say) two controllers with three trains running, only two of which would be under your direct control (one for each controller).

 

I'm sure it is possible to design a system with sensors and other clever gizmos so that uncontrolled trains stop before doing any damage to themselves.  But the only way I might be prepared to use the first option and have a train running I could not control directly would be on a roundy-roundy, so I could leave one train circling while using the controller that set it off to do some shunting clear of the circuit.  But on an end-to-end layout like yours I just wouldn't think of risking it.  One controller per moving loco would be my rule - noting that I think you can stick an app on your mobile phone to turn it into a controller these day.

 

Just read @ITG's reply which I think says much the same more concisely!

Edited May 27, 2020 by Chimer
Para 1, said DC meant DCC