Poplar Junction - a shunting snippet

[Lacathedrale]

I had an idea a while back about creating a series of modular layouts based on the London & Blackwall Railway - and with some tentative steps around designing a layout in larger scales (i.e. larger than 2mmFS!) I've come to the realisation that there is (for us mortals) an axis which is labelled 'commercial availability vs. lone modeller practicality' which limits the scope of a model. If there is wide availability for a given scale or prototype, then it becomes more practical for a single modeller to create larger, more complex layout. As one might imagine, S-scale shoves this axis hard against smaller layouts of more limited scope - and it is with great inspiration I've spent a good amount of time reviewing Mikkel's nano-layouts.

 

I thought it might be interesting to put up an example in the vein of the Farthing layouts, re-scoped to S-scale and the L&BR.

 

This snippet is of the junction by the old Poplar station - open from 1840 to 1845, and still extant until . It exists in a tiny slither of land between Preston's Road and Blackwall way. Here's a view looking eastard from Preston's Road:

 

And the opposite direction from Blackwall way, the inside faces of old platform surfaces can clearly be seen, as well as the signal box and the hellacious curve on those sidings:

 

The last photograph is from the 2nd Poplar station on the other side of Blackwall Way. Here's a shot looking in the same orientation as above - you can just make out the outline of the signal box underneath the Blackwall Way bridge:

 

An OS grid map of the area shows the following:

 

Here's a shot showing the area discussed - top-right are the two roads and the junction, middle-bottom is the MR goods/dock yard, and right is the GNR depot. The road bordering the right edge of this shot takes a strange bend out towards the middle-right, this is to fit the old alignment of the tracks to Blackwall station - demolished and rebuilt as a power station (visible in the first photograph):

 

Interestingly, the 1867 map shows a plain through route from Millwall Jct (left beyond Prestons Road) to the new Poplar station. The high-level LNWR goods complex can be seen  in the corner of the map:

 

 

Here's the OS grid map with (a very rough) templot plan superimposed over the top:

 

As it stands the plan isn't workable - a minimum radius of 2 chains seems a little extreme even for the diminutive GE locomotives that would run on the branch. Reseaching the environs shows huge complexes of warehouses, docks and yards - a rats nest of LNWR, NLR, GNR, MR and L&BR tracks snake between smoke stacks, warehouses, hydraulic works, engine sheds, workhouses and pubs. Even into the 1950's and 60's the level of ruin and lack of care on the branch is evident - maybe scenically more rich than the perfectly preserved pre-group railway we often see?

 

 

The biggest drawback I can see is that unlike the Farthing Layouts, it's a heck of alot of track that would require three separate fiddle yards to operate 'as is'. There are lots of interesting snapshots around the London docks, but most of them are endless rafts of ladders and wagon turntables.

 

Anyway, food for thought- I hope you found this enjoyable.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by Lacathedrale

[mdvle]

3 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

The biggest drawback I can see is that unlike the Farthing Layouts, it's a heck of alot of track that would require three separate fiddle yards to operate 'as is'.

 

Only if you want to fully operate it...

 

If you main goal/enjoyment in the hobby is building structures, custom trackwork, and creating a scene then this would likely be very fulfilling.

 

And even to operate, you could perhaps get away with only one fiddle yard, just connected to different points depending on what you want to operate at any given time.

 

3 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

Anyway, food for thought- I hope you found this enjoyable.

 

Always nice to see different ideas, one never knows what will provide inspiration (even if taken in a different direction) to somebody reading RMweb now or in the future.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

A few fiddlesticks could be used instead of three fully blown fiddle yards.

 

Mike.

[Mikkel]

12 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

a rats nest of LNWR, NLR, GNR, MR and L&BR tracks snake between smoke stacks, warehouses, hydraulic works, engine sheds, workhouses and pubs

 

What a great setting! Apart from the interesting ideas offered above, another might be to zoom in even further?  For example, this bit:

 

 

The two lower sidings and warehouse (if that's what it is?) would be the main feature. One or two of the upper tracks could also be included, leading off into the backcene. But it depends what part of the traffic you want to focus on, of course. 

[Schooner]

More L&B, excellent! Lovely idea with lots of potential, I look forward to seeing where it leads

 

21 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

commercial availability vs. lone modeller practicality

A very valid point. Although my aim is to take the turn at Millwall Junction, I'm taking tentative first steps along the same tightrope. If you find the answer, let me know! 

 

Following with interest...

Edited May 14, 2020 by Schooner

[Flying Pig]

5 hours ago, Mikkel said:

The two lower sidings and warehouse (if that's what it is?)

 

From looking at maps of the area, I suspect that the lower sidings may actually be shunt necks for the Midland docks yard just off the plan bottom right.  Perhaps to allow two shunting engines to work simultaneously?  The top siding,curving sharply through the slip, appears to be a trap, so would not normally be worked.

 

If I'm right then the shunting potential of the scene is restricted to the two shunters and their constantly changing short cuts of wagons.  Personally, I don't think that would be very satisfying for the operator and it would involve quite a lot of fiddling.  However it would work well in an exhibition context.

 

Actually, I suspect the main interest of this location, especially in pre-Grouping days, was the passing trains.  Did the Midland have running powers to its docks and the GN to its depot?  Did the NLR also run trains onto the line from the connection at Poplar? If so it could make for a very entertaining scene, but again it really says exhibition layout, with 2 or 3 busy fiddlers.

 

OTOH if you just want to build it, as @mdvle says, it would make a great diorama.

[Lacathedrale]

Mikkel, I like your idea - I came up with a version which omits the lines towards the GNR depot/Blackwall station, roughly like so:

 

Slicing the layout roughly like so, where the red line is the viewing position:

 

I am wondering however, if this is neither fish nor fowl - and it would be better to adhere to the existing plan and for the sake of a couple of turnouts and another 3-4" of space,  model those running lines - or diverge more from reality and omit the entire line that is adjacent to the hydraulic building.

 

i can see one benefit to adding those lines, is that it makes the layout very extensible. Here are some ideas:

 

Stage 1 - As depicted originally, with the three fiddle yards.

 

(this photograph is upside down relative to the system plan above)

 

 

 

Stage 2 - Would be possible to plug Blackwall station into one side, too. The layout is very simple - just a single platform face with a bay/dock:

 

It might even make more sense to model this first - and with this paradigm it would work very easily:

 

The nature of the station with a large curtain wall and a huge station building means one could model just the throat and mask the rest with a fiddle yard:

 

Stage 2a - Fiddle yard connected to a station throat, and then into a fiddle yard again:

 

Stage 2b - If one decided that modelling the buildings and/or removing that curtain wall would be helpful, you could replace the GNR Yard/Station Fiddle with a station platform board:

 

Stage 2c - Of course, this would plug directly into the Poplar Jct layout:

 

 

Stage 3? - Another option would be to ignore the station entirely and model the GNR coal/goods yard and the dockside:

 

 

In terms of orientation this is inverted in relation to the system plan above - the entrance from the Poplar Jct to the GNR yard is bottom-left of this map image:

 

Post-war aerial photography

(in this photograph, Blackwall station has been demolished and it looks like the GNR warehouse is close to it too!  You can see the road bridge bottom-right which is visible in the bottom-left of the aerial photograph in the Stage 2 heading)

 

Stage 4?

Another path might be to model snapshots of the railway up the main line. Some examples:

 

Stage 4a - The hydraulic works opposite Millwall Junction between the embankment, the hydraulic works, and the huge raised walkway - definitely not the huge fan of sidings!

 

 

 

Stage 4b - Maybe even the Millwallt Junction engine shed (as seen above below the blue marker):

 

Lots of options, as I'm sure you can imagine!

 

 

 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

PMP of this parish is/was doing a model consisting of a series of vignettes connected by a common theme, maybe connecting a few diorama style boards might work?

 

Mike.

[Mikkel]

I like your stage 2b and 2c options in particular. A slice of this view would have a lot of interest I think.

 

 

It would be a shame to do Poplar Dock without goods though, especially the GNR/MR combo, so stage 3 also an exciting prospect!

 

BTW I think "snippet" is a great name for these types of boards/layouts. 

[Lacathedrale]

@Mikkel you have had your modules hooked up a few times - how much thought did you put into them being a contiguous scene, if at all? Did you deliberately align your entry/exit tracks from a datum point to ensure this would be possible?

[Mikkel]

Not for the first three, no. The idea of joining them up didn't occur until later. The current (extremely simple) one has been planned so that it can be joined to 1-2 further modules. I have played around with plans for joining them all up by inserting some track-only modules, but no doubt it's best to have it pre-planned with a datum point as per a normal modular set-up.

 

This of course imposes restrictions on the individual layout, because you then have to fit the track plan and scenery to match the datum points - meaning that some of the normal tricks that modellers use on small layouts become more challenging. 

[Lacathedrale]

Maybe staggering the boards to align track wouldn't be so bad:

 

 

 

I am very much of the mind now that a Cameo-style shadowbox is not what I want to do for my next layout - rather I'd like to try for an open top, a backscene that is formed by the structures and contours of the land (maybe with a detachable sky board for photography?) with varnished dark wood sides, brass plaques a la Maybank:

 

 

 

[mdvle]

56 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

Maybe staggering the boards to align track wouldn't be so bad:

 

 

 

I am very much of the mind now that a Cameo-style shadowbox is not what I want to do for my next layout - rather I'd like to try for an open top, a backscene that is formed by the structures and contours of the land (maybe with a detachable sky board for photography?) with varnished dark wood sides, brass plaques a la Maybank:

 

 

So at this point, for anyone following this thread who is unaware, you have essentially come to what is known as Freemo in the European and North American modelling communities - where the modules themselves have no restrictions on them beyond a set of basic ideas (no track near edges) and minimal standards (type of track, a minimum interface for connecting the modules).  As in they can be any shape / size as long as it has a common connecting point and so your staggered boards would be more than acceptable - some even do S shaped modules.

 

For those unaware of Freemo there are several active groups who meet up in the UK (threads can be seen in the US&Canadian section here on RMweb) where they rent a hall, show up with their (differently themed(*)) modules and connect them together and have fun.

 

6 years ago Andy Y even started a thread to get a British Standard going

 

*-obviously don't have to be differently themed, some groups go the additional step to specify they are modeling a particular railway or line, etc.

Edited May 19, 2020 by mdvle

[ianb3174]

Oddly enough I had a similar idea for this location. Just the tight junction, signal box and platform ends. Guess I'll have to think of another location

[Lacathedrale]

@ianb3174 I wouldn't worry about originality, this is primarily a thought exercise and it would be barmy to not build it because someone else shared the good idea!

[DavidLong]

On 14/05/2020 at 06:50, Mikkel said:

 

What a great setting! Apart from the interesting ideas offered above, another might be to zoom in even further?  For example, this bit:

 

 

The two lower sidings and warehouse (if that's what it is?) would be the main feature. One or two of the upper tracks could also be included, leading off into the backcene. But it depends what part of the traffic you want to focus on, of course. 

 

Hi Mikkel,

 

The long building is an air raid shelter! We had similar but smaller buildings at my primary school in the 1950s.

Solid brick walls and a large slab of concrete on the top. Just below the roof, at intervals, there were gaps in the brickwork for ventilation. After the war, schools loved them as they were very useful large storage spaces. These days they would probably be extra class rooms . . .

The 25" to the mile maps of this area in the early 1950s are littered with labels next to buildings of 'ruin'. Indeed the shell of the large square GNR warehouse that appears in the photos is exactly one such. As is well known, the London docks took a real pounding from the Luftwaffe and the resulting wrecks remained well into the '50s. 

All change now since the London Docklands Development Corporation took over the area but it is home to the extremely wonderful Docklands Light Railway. I would still like to have visited the delightful Blackwall station with its huge and impressive (William Tite designed) station building.

More information can be found here:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stepneys-own-railway-history-Blackwall/dp/0947699023

Not the best volume for photos but good for background reading.

 

David

Edited June 18, 2020 by DavidLong

[Mikkel]

Thanks David, that's interesting. The shelter would make an interesting historical feature on a layout, though not of much interest from an operational point of view I suppose!

 

Nice to hear the words "extremely wonderful" about a modern rail system (Docklands Light Railway). Must try it someday. Looking at a map, it is more expansive than I thought.

[Simond]

It probably won’t please many train crews, but it’s definitely a portent of the future, it was an early implementation of uncrewed trains, there is a driver’s desk but it remains locked closed most of the time, allowing a child to sit at the front and pretend.  
 

how old?  Oooh, 62.  
 

Oh, the trains?  Sorry, opened in 1987.

 

atb

Simon

[Multigauge]

I was thinking of this area in the past 24 hours before coming across this thread. It struck me from memories of travelling on the line in the mid eighties that it would be an interesting place to model. I wasn't thinking of it during its heyday, but seeing the pics and comments it is wetting my appetite more.

Lots of decay and neglect in that era to capture.