Military traffic on the Salisbury and Dorset Junction Railway

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hi,

A claim has emerged that 'tanks' were sent from Salisbury Plain to Wool via Salisbury and the Salisbury Dorset Junction Railway. The claim was accompanied by an obvious fake photograph of tanks hauled by 34064 Fighter Command.

However, there may be a kernel of truth if the Army used the line to transport smaller AFV's such as FV430 or maybe Saracens but there has been no previous mention of any Army movements on this line.  Movement from Ludgershall which involve reversal at Salisbury and a more straightforward route for traffic originating at Beechgrove Sidings, Warminster etc.

 

 

Thank you

 

Cheers and Stay Safe

 

Edited May 14, 2020 by Guest
Off topic

[The Stationmaster]

As far as I can find out the maximum width of a Centurion (with sideplates fitted) is 11ft 1" - which would put it well out-of-gauge and liable to foul the structure gauge. And it would not be the sort of load that could be jacked sideways to avoid structures.  So it sounds to me like it simply wouldn't be a runner for most lines, especially those with lineside signals!

[Fat Controller]

Examination of the original photo shows it was taken in Victoria, Australia...

[Clive Mortimore]

The Centurion was the first British tank designed not to fit in the limited loading gauges of the British railway system. To enable the 17 pdr tank gun to be fitted in a tank without any compromise to the fighting ability it required a large diameter turret ring, which in turn meant a wide tank hull, which could have had thin tracks and an unsatisfactory suspension system. No good for a tanks primary role as being a mobile weapon. So to match the German Panther and Tiger tanks rail travel was decided as an unnecessary luxury.  

[lanchester]

Out of interest, how was the Centurion in relation to the German loading gauge? Which presumably would be the arena that mattered?

[Clive Mortimore]

38 minutes ago, lanchester said:

Out of interest, how was the Centurion in relation to the German loading gauge? Which presumably would be the arena that mattered?

Post WW2 they were rail transportable in large parts of the continent but I cannot recall reading that was part of the design specification.

 

For most of the North West Europe Campaign tanks were transported by road as the rail network has shattered, either by the allied bombing or the retreating German forces. I don't think it was a priority to make tanks fit an unfit rail system. More important was the ability of loading and unloading on and off ships.

 

Like all good things they were too late, the first examples arrived with the troops in May 1945 and never fired a shot in anger at their intended enemy. They did prove to be a successful tank with many nations post WW2.

[daveyb]

Not only with other nations, Clive.  The Cent was a very successful tank and was up gunned to 105mm ans use to test the L11 120mm gun in the Chieftain.  It remained in British Army service as the Armoured Vehicle Royal Engineer version until 1992, and there were two Cent BARV (Beach Area Recovery Vehicles) at the RM training centre though the operational vehicles were Chiefs by then.  It's main downfall in British service was the plan to move from petrol to diesel and the ammo storage for the 120mm gun was entirely different.

 

The Isreali Merkava tank can still trace its origins to the Centurion.  Interestingly, the Chieftain and Challenger are both able to run on some UK rail lines, so it must have become a requirement again.

[Fat Controller]

28 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Post WW2 they were rail transportable in large parts of the continent but I cannot recall reading that was part of the design specification.

 

For most of the North West Europe Campaign tanks were transported by road as the rail network has shattered, either by the allied bombing or the retreating German forces. I don't think it was a priority to make tanks fit an unfit rail system. More important was the ability of loading and unloading on and off ships.

 

Like all good things they were too late, the first examples arrived with the troops in May 1945 and never fired a shot in anger at their intended enemy. They did prove to be a successful tank with many nations post WW2.

When things had settled down a bit post-war, a large number of Warflats were given side extensions to their floors, for use in transporting BAOR tanks. 81 found their way back to the UK in the mid-1990s. As they were too large for the UK loading gauge, they were brought as far as Eurotunnel's Cheriton terminal, there to be transferred to road trailers. I believe the intention was to return them to 'as built' condition, though what became of them, I don't know.

[Guest Jack Benson]

2 hours ago, daveyb said:

  Interestingly, the Chieftain and Challenger are both able to run on some UK rail lines, so it must have become a requirement again.

As the topic has moved away from the OP, I might as well join in the fun.

 

The Centurion was 3,38m overall width, whereas Challenger 2 is 4,2m with applique armour therefore have clearances on UK rail lines changed?
 

Finally, was the Centurion successful? Well, it was better than the Conqueror (65kms) but its thirst was epic,  it was an export success at a time but the choice was US or Soviet products and the Leopard was just a twinkle in the designer’s eye.  Otherwise, the Centurion was rebuilt by third party nations into something better whilst the British Army got stuck with the lacklustre Chieftain. 
 

Anyhew, has anyone got any information whether military vehicles were transported over the Salisbury and Dorset Junction railway - that was the initial query. 

 

Cheers and Stay Safe

Edited May 14, 2020 by Jack Benson
Mistakes, mistakes, mistakes

[daveyb]

The key there, Jack, is with appliqué armour.  The tanks in UK don't travel with armour fitted because of the weight.  I have seen a pic somewhere of a VAA or similar chassis with a 'snap gauge' outline of the Challenger from the 1980s, and no doubt some loading gauges will have been made bigger.

 

I agree the the Chieftain was fairly under-whelming, The Leyland L60 engine was a howling dog and never lived up to expectations.  The gun was good in its day but the armour was no match for a late T-64 with the 115mm fin shot.  Knife through butter!  That prompted Op STILLBREW to improve the capability and added more weight on an underpowered chassis.  The M4 was nearly as thirsty and more fire prone, though when fitted with the last 100mm gun was definitely at its zenith, the M48 was later and evolved into the M60 which was not as good as the Chieftain but could keep moving which is always a distinct advantage!

 

To bring it more on topic, was the the loading gauge on the S&D generous like the GW or tight like much of the early Midland?

[Guest Jack Benson]

1 hour ago, daveyb said:

The key there, Jack, is with appliqué armour.  The tanks in UK don't travel with armour fitted because of the weight.  I have seen a pic somewhere of a VAA or similar chassis with a 'snap gauge' outline of the Challenger from the 1980s, and no doubt some loading gauges will have been made bigger.

 

To bring it more on topic, was the the loading gauge on the S&D generous like the GW or tight like much of the early Midland?

 Hi,

 

Without applique armour Challenger is 3,5m overall width and Chieftain was 3,66m, both wider than the older Centurion which was out of limits for UK rail travel and we had clearance issues with rail traffic at Ludgershall. Most larger AFVs moved by road low loader, at one time Pickfords were a prime contractor. In answer to your comment, the loading gauge on the Southern was less generous than other systems. 
 

However, getting back to the start, I consider that posting a fake image is an odd way of supporting a rather dubious story, but fake stories are normally welcomed by those who wish to believe them. 
 

Cheers
 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

17 hours ago, daveyb said:

Not only with other nations, Clive.  The Cent was a very successful tank and was up gunned to 105mm ans use to test the L11 120mm gun in the Chieftain.  It remained in British Army service as the Armoured Vehicle Royal Engineer version until 1992, and there were two Cent BARV (Beach Area Recovery Vehicles) at the RM training centre though the operational vehicles were Chiefs by then.  It's main downfall in British service was the plan to move from petrol to diesel and the ammo storage for the 120mm gun was entirely different.

 

The Isreali Merkava tank can still trace its origins to the Centurion.  Interestingly, the Chieftain and Challenger are both able to run on some UK rail lines, so it must have become a requirement again.

The only Centrion's I worked on as a gun fitter were a couple of AVRE's. The 165 mm demolition gun was very interesting with its two part sliding breach with a de Bange rubber obturator.

[Barry O]

Chieftain, Challenger1 and Challenger 2  do fit in the Bern loading gauge. They dont fit in the uk at all. It isnt just width its also height. We did have a test gauge at Barnbow to  check the Challenger 2 would fit (it was set up from the deck of a warflat I believe).

Churchill could fit on some  UK lines but you had to take the exhauster box off.

 

You don't fit applique armour for transport as some appliques are Reactive Armour (ie explosive) so can cause problems.

 

While there was a wagon "ramp" for unloading vehicles at Wool and old hand said they were used  for Foxes and Saladins.

 

Baz

Edited May 15, 2020 by Barry O

[1165Valour]

Does anyone know if the Cromwells could fit in the UK loading gauge? I know they weren't perfect, but I just love them so.

[petethemole]

Cromwells did fit, as did the successor model, Comet, which was slightly wider and overlapped the sides of a Warflat while still in gauge.

[daveyb]

8 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

The only Centrion's I worked on as a gun fitter were a couple of AVRE's. The 165 mm demolition gun was very interesting with its two part sliding breach with a de Bange rubber obturator.

And unique as a QF fixed ammunition, in that its carries its cart case down range; the flying dustbin!  Not strictly a QF gun as it had a cart case and relied on the breach to seal as well.  I was an Ammo Tech but never saw the Cent in service.  I joined as it was being retired and the Chieftain AVRE didn't get a gun (we used to call that the armoured tortoise with its 3 facine on the racks).

[daveyb]

4 hours ago, Barry O said:

Chieftain, Challenger1 and Challenger 2  do fit in the Bern loading gauge. They dont fit in the uk at all. It isnt just width its also height. We did have a test gauge at Barnbow to  check the Challenger 2 would fit (it was set up from the deck of a warflat I believe).

Churchill could fit on some  UK lines but you had to take the exhauster box off.

 

You don't fit applique armour for transport as some appliques are Reactive Armour (ie explosive) so can cause problems.

 

While there was a wagon "ramp" for unloading vehicles at Wool and old hand said they were used  for Foxes and Saladins.

 

Baz

Fairly light and wheeled so definitely contenders.  Where was the ramp? I was looking for it on Google Earth but I'm none the wiser.

 

I'm surprised the Fox CVR(W) was mentioned, they were a fairly rare and their use limited mostly, but not exclusively, to Berlin Brigade ops but training would be done at Bovvy.  They were very top heavy.  The turrets were taken to put on Scorpion chassis to turn them into the Sabre in the late 80s.

[Barry O]

It was a railway wagon which had a detachable set of wheels at one end. It was a "ramp" wagon.

 

All vehicles with guns trained at the the Gunnery School at Lulworth. The vehicles were used in BAOR (not just in Berlin).

 

All vehilces built in Leeds with turrets from Alvis.

 

Baz

Edited May 15, 2020 by Barry O

[Clive Mortimore]

3 minutes ago, daveyb said:

Fairly light and wheeled so definitely contenders.  Where was the ramp? I was looking for it on Google Earth but I'm none the wiser.

 

I'm surprised the Fox CVR(W) was mentioned, they were a fairly rare and their use limited mostly, but not exclusively, to Berlin Brigade ops but training would be done at Bovvy.  They were very top heavy.  The turrets were taken to put on Scorpion chassis to turn them into the Sabre in the late 80s.

1 Tanks had them in Tidworth when I was on a detachment from 10 Field Workshops, I cannot remember which regiment (one the hussar regiments, I think) took over from them. But I do recall going out with the Forward Repair Group to one that had turned over. They had been practicing driving with the flotation screens up. The commander and gunner had been standing up on their seats in the turret. When the investigation was over I had the lovely job of cleaning the inside of the turret. Strange that was a gun-fitters job.

[daveyb]

That's never a fun job, Clive, I've done similar.

 

Barry, I was including Lulworth in the Bovvy Garrison, sorry.  I never got to play at Lulworth, but the target railway would have been interesting.  I presume you mean similar to this (From Pauls excellent reference site).?

 

Ramp wagon

[exet1095]

1 hour ago, daveyb said:

Fairly light and wheeled so definitely contenders.  Where was the ramp? I was looking for it on Google Earth but I'm none the wiser.

 

I'm surprised the Fox CVR(W) was mentioned, they were a fairly rare and their use limited mostly, but not exclusively, to Berlin Brigade ops but training would be done at Bovvy.  They were very top heavy.  The turrets were taken to put on Scorpion chassis to turn them into the Sabre in the late 80s.

We had them in the Royal Yeomanry until 1993, as did the QOY. That’s 8 Squadrons, each of c15 wagons. Other uses were in (Regular) Mechanised Infantry Battalion recce platoons.

 

They used to travel by train a fair amount in the 1980s, often inside 20’ ISO containers. They all went to Germany for the big NATO exercises then too, and down to places like Castlemartin and Lulworth for gunnery camps. I was in HQ Squadron so we had CVRT rather than the wheeled variety, as well as a quartet of Ferrets and a huge number of Bedfords for the regimental echelon. 
 

Foxes had a reputation as being easy to roll, but that is down to inexperienced drivers braking hard and then steering. That would make them roll, but otherwise, pretty stable.

 

before the Yeomanry regiments has CVR(W) and (T), we had lots of Saladins and Saracens.  The latter had very vulnerable brake pipes, as I discovered in Cyprus in 1986... Fortunately, nobody seemed to mind about the building too much!

 

Paul

Edited May 15, 2020 by exet1095

[Barry O]

1 hour ago, daveyb said:

That's never a fun job, Clive, I've done similar.

 

Barry, I was including Lulworth in the Bovvy Garrison, sorry.  I never got to play at Lulworth, but the target railway would have been interesting.  I presume you mean similar to this (From Pauls excellent reference site).?

 

Ramp wagon

Yep that is the wagon. I saw it during CHIP/ÇAIP Tials as well as  meetings at HQDRAC and the Gunnery School.

Baz

[Guest Jack Benson]

Sorry but just trying to swing the inevitable drift back towards railways.

 

The author of the claim has added this comment:-

Talking to my Dad and Uncle the special trains ran on the occasional Sunday as and when. This would have been 1962 or 1963 my Uncle saw small tank train and my Dad saw another one with big tank.

There could be some credence as all AFV deployments were preceeded by target practice at Lulworth range, this would have included some vehicles which did travel by rail such as the Saladin which was in service in the early 60s.  What other mounted gun vehicles could have been candidates for rail transport in 62/63 and would have travelled to Bovington?

 

Thank you and Stay Safe

 

[Fat Controller]

3 hours ago, Jack Benson said:

Sorry but just trying to swing the inevitable drift back towards railways.

 

The author of the claim has added this comment:-

Talking to my Dad and Uncle the special trains ran on the occasional Sunday as and when. This would have been 1962 or 1963 my Uncle saw small tank train and my Dad saw another one with big tank.

There could be some credence as all AFV deployments were preceeded by target practice at Lulworth range, this would have included some vehicles which did travel by rail such as the Saladin which was in service in the early 60s.  What other mounted gun vehicles could have been candidates for rail transport in 62/63 and would have travelled to Bovington?

 

Thank you and Stay Safe

 

Were there any Comets in service with Territorial Units? The TA seemed to have lots of older vehicles. It might also be that the OP simply identified other armoured vehicles as 'Tanks' (a mis-identification that occurs to this day. Apart from the Saladin, there were Saracens and Ferrets, whilst  the FV43x family started service from 1962/3 onwards. These latter would have included the 'Abbot' Self-Propelled Gun. The Abbot's predecessor , the Sexton, may still been in service with TA units.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Fat Controller

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hi Brian,

 

Supposition that Comets were still in service in 62 or 63 can be confirmed (or not) by ex-service personnel that have contributed but to quote Jane's The Comet remained in British service until 1958, when the remaining tanks were sold to foreign governments;  presumably all over* by 1960 so what was seen in 62-63?

The author specifically states "the track over hang (sic)" which does rule out wheeled AFV's

 

Unfortunately the author of the claim is somewhat overwrought and further information is limited.

 

Ironically, an outsize load did pass along the Salisbury and Dorset in 1950 enroute to Poole Power station but as can been seen in the contempoary press, click here, it certainly was not a routine journey.

 

*Lack of ready-use spares and ammo were the root causes of their demise.

 

Cherers and Stay Safe