RMweb Premium Alex TM Posted May 16, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 16, 2020 Hi everyone, I seem to remember that some time ago I read an article that made reference to at least one of the UK preservation societies having converted coaches into makeshift driving trailers. I gather this was to ease operations. I also seem to remember that these were BR Mk Is. Can anyone point me towards who, what, where, and when? Many thanks for the help. Regards, Alex. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
County of Yorkshire Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 Perhaps not quite what you are looking for, but these might be a starting point for your research. Llangollen added a 'driving end' to their MK1 BSK's to assist with operations after the temporary station at Corwen East was built. As there was not run round loop, trains had to be reversed from Corwen East to Carrog. I cannot recall if these driving ends were just for look-out purposes by the guard, or whether they actually contained train control equipment. You can see these coaches here and here on the Vintage Carriage register. Secondly, Didcot did similar with their Hawksworth BSK. Again, this helps with operation on their demonstration line, which also has no run-round loop, so all trains are worked in reverse in one direction. This can be seen here; where is actually does say that "One corridor end connector provided with window etc for push/pull operation", so this coach might even contain train control apparatus as well as the window lookout? Hope this helps. CoY 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steven B Posted May 17, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 17, 2020 The Elsecar railway in South Yorkshire had a Mk1 with a brake valve/setter located next to the corridor connection at one end of the train. I can't remember if they cut a window in the end or if they just ran with the corridor connection open (but partially partitioned off, like a stable door). The loco crew stayed on the loco and controlled the train whilst the brakesman acted as look-out with a ability to stop the train should they need to. Steven B. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Alex TM Posted May 18, 2020 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 18, 2020 Hi CoY, and Steven B, Thanks for those responses; they are both of interest. CoY, that first link seems to be to something similar to what I remember being described. For a BSK, which is clearly marked on the end, 34537 has gained a few extra windows and doors. I've found that the Helston Railway also has a converted coach, though it seems to be a 57' MkI BT suburban. Again, many thanks for the help. Regards, Alex. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Marsbar Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 This one was constructed for use at the now closed Snibston museum... http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=4047 It moved to the GCR a couple of years ago, with the idea of using it for shuttle services on the Mountsorrel branch, but no work has been carried out since it arrived at the GCR and it is currently, I believe, stored at Rothley on an isolated section of track with a few other carriages. 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold melmoth Posted May 18, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 18, 2020 The Bluebell used a Maunsell (I think) coach during the construction of the extension from Horsted Keynes some years ago, and (definitely not mk1 stock) so did the Ffestiniog on their Deviation work. 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted May 18, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 18, 2020 The Gwili Railway used a DMU car for a few years before they built the run-round loops. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold pheaton Posted May 18, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 18, 2020 Push pull (other than the purpose built steam hauled coaches) is rare now, and when it's in use attracts considerable attention from the ORR. There was a Mk2 in use on the GCR purpose built for this but im not sure its in use anymore, there was also research coach The GWSR originally intended to convert use from the RTC tribometer train for push pull but the idea was quickly abandoned, but that is an ex mk1. other railways have made there own, but the ORR is very very heavily clamping on mk1 maintenance and modifications so it wouldn't surprise me if they don't get used now. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Alex TM Posted May 18, 2020 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 18, 2020 Hi again, Once more, thanks for all the interesting and helpful responses. My only experience of travelling push-pull on a preservation line was many years ago (ca. 1984) at Didcot where the demonstration track was being operated by a non-fitted pannier (IIRC 3738) and a GWR auto-trailer; another visit saw 1466 and a trailer in use. On both occasions we must have reached the dizzying rate of 5mph. Whatever, it was fun getting me hooked on steam. Again, thanks for your time and talents. Regards, Alex. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
avonside1563 Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 Most of the heritage lines using steam worked propelling workings can't really be classed as having true driving trailers as the equipment in the vehicle is usually limited to a brake valve and possibly a means of communication with the locomotive, but no means to close the regulator. I would suggest that only vehicles that have a means of controlling the power as well as the brake can be classed as driving trailers. 1 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FraserClarke Posted May 18, 2020 Share Posted May 18, 2020 6 hours ago, Alex TM said: My only experience of travelling push-pull on a preservation line was many years ago (ca. 1984) at Didcot where the demonstration track was being operated by a non-fitted pannier (IIRC 3738) and a GWR auto-trailer; another visit saw 1466 and a trailer in use. On both occasions we must have reached the dizzying rate of 5mph. There is a 10 mph limit when propelling. There are a couple of true auto-trailers at Didcot (i.e. ones where the engine can be driven from that end), but I don't think we have any operational locos fitted with autogear at the minute. The steam railmotor sometimes runs with auto-trailer #92 and is driven from both ends. Otherwise, as others mention, the Didcot brake coaches are adapted to provide a lookout for the guard when propelling, who can put the brakes in if needed. 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted May 20, 2020 Share Posted May 20, 2020 That's at Didcot though where they are really just working up and down the yard. In the wild they work the usual 25 MPH limits whether being pulled or propelled. Been on them on various heritage lines where they work normal timetabled services. Llangollen, SVR, etc. Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted May 20, 2020 Share Posted May 20, 2020 On 18/05/2020 at 10:13, melmoth said: The Bluebell used a Maunsell (I think) coach during the construction of the extension from Horsted Keynes some years ago, and (definitely not mk1 stock) so did the Ffestiniog on their Deviation work. A Maunsell coach on 2' gauge? 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
25901 Posted May 20, 2020 Share Posted May 20, 2020 Steamport at Southport had a coach with a class 24 controller fitted to it so it could do a push / pull service with 24081. The controller I think is now with the 15 at Bury 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Traxson Posted May 22, 2020 Share Posted May 22, 2020 On 18/05/2020 at 10:13, melmoth said: The Bluebell used a Maunsell (I think) coach during the construction of the extension from Horsted Keynes some years ago, and (definitely not mk1 stock) so did the Ffestiniog on their Deviation work. May be out of context for this thread but, the Ffestiniog also had a complete 6 car push pull set ( "The Green Set") with purpose built driving trailer with full control of the unmanned Diesel loco on the other end, which ran at normal line speed in time tabled services. Then again so did BR with 47,s and up to present day with Electric loco's! 1 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted May 22, 2020 Share Posted May 22, 2020 On 16/05/2020 at 19:05, Alex TM said: Hi everyone, I seem to remember that some time ago I read an article that made reference to at least one of the UK preservation societies having converted coaches into makeshift driving trailers. I gather this was to ease operations. I also seem to remember that these were BR Mk Is. Can anyone point me towards who, what, where, and when? Many thanks for the help. Regards, Alex. The Bodmin & Wenford Railway has one - but I can't give a link as they don't yet have a stocklist. John isherwood. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted May 22, 2020 Share Posted May 22, 2020 On 20/05/2020 at 14:42, Zomboid said: A Maunsell coach on 2' gauge? Maybe it was based on a concept design for stock replacement on the Lynton & Banstaple. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted May 22, 2020 Share Posted May 22, 2020 35 minutes ago, Phil Traxson said: May be out of context for this thread but, the Ffestiniog also had a complete 6 car push pull set ( "The Green Set") with purpose built driving trailer with full control of the unmanned Diesel loco on the other end, which ran at normal line speed in time tabled services. Then again so did BR with 47,s and up to present day with Electric loco's! The RHDR did similar with their diesels and a full length push-pull set for working school trains. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted May 22, 2020 Share Posted May 22, 2020 The IoWSR has a PP set made-up of four-wheelers, which I've ridden in, and I'm fairly certain that has an operational driving coach, set 484. What its status is in terms of 'created during preservation', I'm not sure, because at least some of the coaches are from an original PP set. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted May 22, 2020 Share Posted May 22, 2020 The Midland Rly (and LMS?) called them Pull-Push 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IWCR Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 The Isle of Wight Push Pull set is genuine, it is formed of a pair of LCDR 4 vehicles which were converted to Push Pull set 484 in 1924. The equipment in the Driving Trailer however is not operational and the railway has no push pull fitted loco. A (very) long term desire is to fit at least one loco (the two Terriers both had Push Pull fittings in the past) and to bring the set into a fully operational condition. The only operating Push Pull stock I am aware of is some of the GWR autotrailers which use a mechanical system. Most (all?) standard gauge preservation era conversions are to allow propelling at low speed on lines which have no run round, generally a temporary measure during a line extension etc, normally just a window in the carriage end, a means of applying the brake and some sort of warning bell/whistle. The loco still being driven normally from its footplate. Pete 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invicta Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 On 18/05/2020 at 15:21, avonside1563 said: Most of the heritage lines using steam worked propelling workings can't really be classed as having true driving trailers as the equipment in the vehicle is usually limited to a brake valve and possibly a means of communication with the locomotive, but no means to close the regulator. I would suggest that only vehicles that have a means of controlling the power as well as the brake can be classed as driving trailers. The GCR (North) at Ruddington have a Mk2 BSO, which IIRC is fitted with a brake valve in this manner- Last time I was there a couple of years back we were propelled on the return trip, with the Austerity tank 0-6-0 tender conversion '2890', which was visiting at the time, rather than the 'top and tail' arrangement (HST 41001 + 33 ) used on my previous visit. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mk2_BSO_E9389.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted May 25, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 25, 2020 On 23/05/2020 at 11:15, IWCR said: The Isle of Wight Push Pull set is genuine, it is formed of a pair of LCDR 4 vehicles which were converted to Push Pull set 484 in 1924. The equipment in the Driving Trailer however is not operational and the railway has no push pull fitted loco. A (very) long term desire is to fit at least one loco (the two Terriers both had Push Pull fittings in the past) and to bring the set into a fully operational condition. The only operating Push Pull stock I am aware of is some of the GWR autotrailers which use a mechanical system. Most (all?) standard gauge preservation era conversions are to allow propelling at low speed on lines which have no run round, generally a temporary measure during a line extension etc, normally just a window in the carriage end, a means of applying the brake and some sort of warning bell/whistle. The loco still being driven normally from its footplate. Pete I thought you were well on your way, Pete. Off-peak travel to Wootton? Yes please! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 On 21/05/2020 at 00:24, 25901 said: Steamport at Southport had a coach with a class 24 controller fitted to it so it could do a push / pull service with 24081. The controller I think is now with the 15 at Bury Ah. The LMS coach. I think it went to Peak Rail as it was called then. There was also an Inspection Saloon. But both had fallen out of use when I was a member. The Inspection Saloon went to the Gloucestershire & Warwickshire and is now on the SVR. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted May 25, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 25, 2020 On 22/05/2020 at 18:08, Penlan said: The Midland Rly (and LMS?) called them Pull-Push The official description was "motor train"; here's the business end of a driving trailer converted in 1908 from a 1880s bogie third or composite brake: NRM DY 2271, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum. 1 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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