Revolution trains 3rd Facebook live - Possible new models to be announced

[woodenhead]

Gonna be a class 76

[Lukas G.]

40 minutes ago, Ilambie said:

 

380/385 EMU's (Unlikely as Scottish only)

 

 

I would pay good money for either of those, one to keep in mind is Kato British railways which is bringing out an N gauge Azusa next year, they may choose another Japanese-made prototype but who knows

[njee20]

32 minutes ago, TomE said:

 

I haven't seen any update on the Cavalex 91/mk4s since they said they were continuing with the N Gauge version. Have I missed something for you to suggest it's not looking good? I'm really hoping it makes it!! The 89 being done in N might even help them with extra demand for mk4 rakes. 

 

The problem with the 90 is these days is we won't know what Bachmann/Farish are planning until they are at the EP stage, so RevolutioN could go for the 90, get all the way to the CAD stage only for Bachmann to drop an EP. Probably not worth the risk unless you were confident you could have it in production within the next 12 months.  

 

Yes, that was rather what I was meaning in my last paragraph - Bachmann could be doing something (mind you, so could Revolution) and you're not going to know about it. That said; we've seen with other models Bachmann announcing very early, and I know they've pledged to change that, but I think I'd shout about a 90 as soon as conceivably possible. It's always difficult though; I'd really like a revised 90, and that get easily conflated with "everyone in the world wants a dozen 90s, they'd sell like hot cakes!".

 

Re: Cavalex, no, I have no feedback, and I really do hope it goes ahead, just going by their past track record, nothing has yet reached critical mass in N, and they were upfront in saying their OO model was (prior to Hornby's announcement) performing markedly better in orders. Like I say, I hope it happens, the renders of the 91 were stunning.

 

Thinking about it I'd probably find an excuse for a class 89 railtour if one did come along; may not be too farfetched for a contemporary layout if/once it returns to action!

[steve1023]

If we are wishlisting could I add a new tooling HAA and VxA type wagon (especiallyVDA)

[ash39]

1 hour ago, TomE said:

 

I haven't seen any update on the Cavalex 91/mk4s since they said they were continuing with the N Gauge version. Have I missed something for you to suggest it's not looking good? I'm really hoping it makes it!!

 

There isn't even a thread in the Cavalex forum for the 91/mk4 anymore since the combined 00/N one was locked. 

 

It's just gone rather quiet, which doesn't necessarily mean it isn't happening but I get the feeling it's quite far down the pecking order.

 

I'll be seriously confused if an N gauge 89 gets produced to modern standards before the 90 and 91. Doesn't make sense however you look at it. 

[montyburns56]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

Gonna be a class 76

 

Good call. The fact that Heljan recently made an 00 model would frighten off Bachmann from doing one and It's a bit too niche for Farish to produce an N gauge version I reckon. Pretty please Ben & co.

[Lukas G.]

Maybe one day RevolutioN can host a dedicated forum site (My current fan page on reddit could easily be converted) as a place to suggest new models

[The Pilotman]

11 minutes ago, Lukas G. said:

Maybe one day RevolutioN can host a dedicated forum site (My current fan page on reddit could easily be converted) as a place to suggest new models

As almost everything they’ve proposed has become a reality and everything they’ve produced has been well-received, I’d say they have a pretty good idea of the marketplace. In any case, they’ve got this and the N Gauge Forum at least to tell them which way the wind (and the froth) is blowing. 

[87023Velocity]

A class 325 and 175 with potential for a 180 would be good. 

16 minutes ago, Lukas G. said:

Maybe one day RevolutioN can host a dedicated forum site (My current fan page on reddit could easily be converted) as a place to suggest new models

 

Hi Lukas,

 

Without going to far off topic, I think Ben and Mike have all things covered with their own website (with contact), their Facebook page (including the Live sessions were questions are answered), N gauge forum - again a page was set up for suggestions and finally here at Rmweb. That's not including their stands at some exhibitions (admittedly on hold). 

 

Cheers

 

Simon

[Lukas G.]

Of course, I am merely suggesting a way to further compliment their extensive media and discussion threads. A platform to officially suggest something like this would also be great - plus my community on reddit I’d primarily for those who can’t access other sites for whatever reason - age limits etc. Personally I would like to see some more multiple units developed, perhaps a 350 Member of the Desiro family. As they use similar components and DCC sound files I can see the feasibility of say, a 360 and 380, or a 450 and 444. 
As well as these, Bombardier Electrostars would possibly be a viable product, with similar noises, body shapes and under frame equipment. Obviously those would be a very extensive list of prototypes, so for simplicity’s sake, let’s have:

A SE 375

A SE 376

A SN 377

A LO 378

A GWR 387

A GEX 387

A HEX 387

A C2C 387

The 4 different liveries for the 387 (In similar fashion to the 320/321) could start the project, with others coming later. 

[njee20]

The 450 is forthcoming from Farish (at some point), doing the 444 would be daft IMO. I think the 442 would be better; wider geographical area, time period and more liveries.

 

I do agree the Electrostar family are quite a big gap; but as ever there are a lot of sub-class variations which makes it challenging.

 

I agree with others that they don't need another channel for suggestions. Ben and Mike are very switched on to the market and what's out there (model and prototype). If you have a genuine proposal than put it together and take it to them. That's what happened with the Class B tankers, which came to fruition (and I believe the 21/29 which didn't, but that's by the by). Simply telling them, whether on here, Facebook, Reddit, or another platform that they should do X is pretty pointless. 

 

I think the 87 and the 90 would be potentially be bigger sellers than the 89 for whoever produces them. The challenge with the 90 particularly isn't so much whether it would sell, but whether Bachmann would beat Revolution to market. The 87 may be a 'safer' bet, as a Hornby model without an obvious intention to downsize.

[mdvle]

19 hours ago, Lukas G. said:

Hey guys, a few minutes ago rails of Sheffield broke news that it is producing a class 89 in OO in co-operation with accurascale, accurascale and revolution often partner up (Class 92, Nuke wagons) and so we may be getting this in N gauge too - only speculating, but it seems logical

 

No, Rails of Sheffield might produce a Class 89 in OO.

They are taking expressions of interest to see if there is sufficient demand for a Class 89 in OO, much like Revolution has done Revolution products in the past.

 

Now, while I suspect they will get enough interest the fact that Rails is being cautious enough to measure interest before committing in OO might be an indication that it could be a tough sell in N.

[mdvle]

13 hours ago, Lukas G. said:

Maybe one day RevolutioN can host a dedicated forum site (My current fan page on reddit could easily be converted) as a place to suggest new models

 

Every additional social media or other public outreach in addition to what Revolution already do takes time away from doing other things, like researching new projects or any number of other things that a small business demands in terms of time in a week/month.

 

[njee20]

Of course, But they already do pay a lot of attention to what is discussed on social media, and are active contributors. evidenced in their high conversion of proposals to products.  
 

What they don’t need is 50 different places to host information. They have their site, they publish news to their Facebook page, plus stuff gets replicated here and on the N Gauge Forum. They don’t need to be curating a Reddit page or a stand-alone forum too, they’d be distractions. I think both would be counter productive - look at the Dapol Digest; and that from bigger organisation.

 

As I’ve said, if it’s specifically about suggestions then people need to compose an actual proposal and submit it. Ben and Mike are both very approachable, so contact them (probably before you undertake a load of work to tell them to do something they’re already working on!), but just saying “you should do x” is pointless - why? There’s loads of random esoteric stuff I’d buy, but I thats not to say they’d make commercial sense. 

[Crepello]

21 hours ago, steve1023 said:

If we are wishlisting could I add a new tooling HAA and VxA type wagon (especiallyVDA)

Why the HAAs Steve? Is it the couplings on the Farish one?  They're already good models and replacing the rapidos is easy with American Bachmann buckeyes (item 42531). Surely not one for Revolution?

Edited May 20, 2020 by Crepello

[Lukas G.]

I also wonder why an HAA would be needed, in my mind Revolution’s output should be solely focused on the models that otherwise just wouldn’t make it, and while the HAA is a key model for those depicting that era I think it would be a poor deployment of Revolution’s skill set and exclusivity. However the Bachmann examples seem good, and I understand why people would want a new tooling, I just don’t think that’s a revolution model-in-waiting 

[Guest Half-full]

2 hours ago, njee20 said:

What they don’t need is 50 different places to host information. They have their site, they publish news to their Facebook page, plus stuff gets replicated here and on the N Gauge Forum. They don’t need to be curating a Reddit page or a stand-alone forum too, they’d be distractions. I think both would be counter productive - look at the Dapol Digest; and that from bigger organisation.

Exactly.  Every minute spent looking at social media, or maintaining it, is a minute less spent on development, or their own personal lives!  

 

To many information platforms dilutes the information.

 

A thing to remember is that not everyone is on social media, may people despise it (me included, this is the only platform Im on) and most people will go straight to RevolutioNs' website for information.

 

I think the way RevolutioN run things is great...

 

Website for the non-social media users

Facebook and RMWeb for the more general social media users

N Gauge forum for more targetted audience and focused social media users 

 

If they done a 303 in addition to the 314 and 320, I'd switch to N Gauge.  Glasgow south eastern suburbs 1991, Newton area.  WCML sparky hauled expresses, local units and thundering Ravenscraig Ore trains.  Oh yes.

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by Half-full

[Ed-farms]

8 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

No, Rails of Sheffield might produce a Class 89 in OO.

They are taking expressions of interest to see if there is sufficient demand for a Class 89 in OO, much like Revolution has done Revolution products in the past.

 

Now, while I suspect they will get enough interest the fact that Rails is being cautious enough to measure interest before committing in OO might be an indication that it could be a tough sell in N.

 

To be fair the 89 is obviously a one off so people will struggle to buy more than one - unlike a 92 where I for example have 3 on order - so a 2nd run will be hard to justify so doing a "gauge of interest" will help determine if it is viable and how many of each to make. I am guessing it won't be an even 25% split across all 4.

 

Based on this Revolution could announce the same with the 89 in N, didn't they do it for the APT-E as well? Given their business model is the end user funds models it would be a no risk venture to announce plans to make it If demand is right.

[mdvle]

7 hours ago, Lantavian said:

But not paying attention to what people say on social media or in marketing research increases the chances that a small business will waste its efforts, and produce stuff that customers may not want.

 

Who is saying they aren't paying attention to social media?  They already deal with Facebook, RMweb, another forum so they are dealing with social media - they just don't need to add yet more sources that take up time.

 

But I also hate to break it to you but social media does not equal the market.

 

In the latest podcast interview Jason Shron (Rapido Trains) made the interesting point that feedback on their Facebook page does not equate to sales.

 

They post something on a transition era model and they get little response, post newer era stuff and their Facebook page gets lots of responses.  But those transition era models significantly outsell the newer stuff.

 

Thus demonstrating that any company has to choose wisely what project it does (and while the expression of interest reduces risk it doesn't eliminate it - there is still the cost in both money and time in the research that gets done, and possibly CAD drawings, prior to going public).  Social media can help, but a good understanding of the market and other sources of data are just as valuable.

 

[mdvle]

8 minutes ago, Ed-farms said:

To be fair the 89 is obviously a one off so people will struggle to buy more than one - unlike a 92 where I for example have 3 on order - so a 2nd run will be hard to justify so doing a "gauge of interest" will help determine if it is viable and how many of each to make. I am guessing it won't be an even 25% split across all 4.

 

Two points.

 

First, despite the opinion some have most projects are expected to at least break even if not make a profit on the first run.  The upfront tooling and development costs are significant enough that you don't stay in business hoping to finally break even on a project on a second run that happens 3 years or so after the first.  You can't afford to have that debt hanging over the business.

 

Second, as you say the 89 is a one off - but if it is going to be a struggle to sell in OO then it will likely be an even bigger struggle to sell in the smaller N market.  Yes, there are some projects that can be more viable in N than OO due to space (aka length of train) but a single loco isn't likely to fall into that category - we modellers do collect locos far more than the stuff to actually run them with, hence the popularity of the depot/shed layout.

 

8 minutes ago, Ed-farms said:

Based on this Revolution could announce the same with the 89 in N, didn't they do it for the APT-E as well? Given their business model is the end user funds models it would be a no risk venture to announce plans to make it If demand is right.

 

It's not entirely no risk.  Yes, depending on the agreement between Rails and Accurascale it might be possible to share the research.  But there is a limit to how many projects Revolution can have on the go at any one time (they are a 2? person operation), and offering the 89 inherently means that another project would need to be delayed.

 

Which isn't to say they won't try with the 89, just that what other possible projects would people maybe prefer they pursue instead of the 89?

[Guest Half-full]

20 minutes ago, Lantavian said:

I guess you haven't heard of NPV.

 

 

Im pretty sure RevolutioN have a fully developed NPV forecast on each and every project, remember that its a very small operation, and things can change very, very quickly in the model railway industry - as they can in all others, as we are seeing right now.

 

And of course there is the time that they can personally invest in developing new products, that time can also be very quickly taken away.  

 

I wouldnt like to imagine the personal financial risk both guys have invested in their company, seeing returns quicker is, most probably, more important than a long-term forecast I would imagine.

 

 

[Lukas G.]

It depends, the 89 has either a lot of hope or none depending on a few key things -

The availability of good-quality coaches in the appropriate liveries to run behind it (Hornby Mk4s, OO Cavalex Mk4s, N) And the price. The model is one of those things that is a key “plot-hole” and has a lot of prototypical use, having ran on the WCML and ECML. However it is one of those that is in popular demand, but still too niche. If Revolution do produce this I predict they may have some trouble getting it off the ground.

[njee20]

58 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

Two points.

 

First, despite the opinion some have most projects are expected to at least break even if not make a profit on the first run.  The upfront tooling and development costs are significant enough that you don't stay in business hoping to finally break even on a project on a second run that happens 3 years or so after the first.  You can't afford to have that debt hanging over the business.

 

...

 

It's not entirely no risk.  Yes, depending on the agreement between Rails and Accurascale it might be possible to share the research.  But there is a limit to how many projects Revolution can have on the go at any one time (they are a 2? person operation), and offering the 89 inherently means that another project would need to be delayed.

 

Which isn't to say they won't try with the 89, just that what other possible projects would people maybe prefer they pursue instead of the 89?

I disagree with most of what you say. You have no idea whatsoever how different company's business models are structured. I'm pretty confident Revolution seek to amortise their tooling cost in a single production run, but whether that's the same for every brand is a total unknown. I'd be surprised if it were the case for all models/brands.

 

And secondly why would announcing a new project inherently mean something else is delayed? Yes ok, if they announce it as their next (as in due for delivery next) model then perhaps, but they can do things sequentially; they don't deliver one model and then announce another, they've got an inventory of 10 or so models. They've already said they're announcing a new product on their next FB Live, I don't see how that would mean a delay to anything else. The effort is also quite "peaky" - there is a huge amount of initial R&D, then not much effort through tooling/production and then a huge amount of effort again in despatching orders once they arrive.

 

Edit: it's also interesting that Revolution's experience differs from Rapido - modern stuff sells well, transition era is a much harder sell, for whatever reason.

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by njee20

[Lukas G.]

Slight delays have been caused due to lockdown, according to their platform, as obviously they can’t go out and photograph/assess new models, this is a good time, however, for downsizing or upsizing additional models like the JNA to N and the HOA to OO.

[Guest Half-full]

4 hours ago, Lukas G. said:

Slight delays have been caused due to lockdown, according to their platform, as obviously they can’t go out and photograph/assess new models, this is a good time, however, for downsizing or upsizing additional models like the JNA to N and the HOA to OO.

Depending on what else they have going on in their lives!

 

To re-scale models its not just a case of re-sizing the CAD then making new tools, they have to be redesigned to make sure the parts will all fit together in a quick and easy way, and that the parts can actually be moulded strong enough for use, as well as a good number of other variables.

 

Sometimes producing a model in another scale can result in it selling for more than the original due to the design works involved.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Half-full