Wagon repainting help - suitability for unfitted grey, early 1960s?

[Alex TM]

Hi everyone,

 

I must admit that I wasn't sure where to put this question as it covers prototype, livery, and modelling questions, however since the origin of this is regarding repainting 00 wagons then I thought I would go for here.

 

I have the following wagons that are in liveries that don't fit in with any of my current modelling; rather than dispose of all of them  I thought about repainting the appropriate ones in BR livery.  The period I am looking at is well into post-nationalisation so were the following wagon types in revenue service in the early 1960s?

 

LNER Toad B (Hornby model)

LNER Toad D (Hornby model)

LNER 6-plank open (9' wb unfitted - Oxford Rail model)

LMS 5-plank (unfitted wooden solebar - Bachmann model)

LMS 12t van (late type - unfitted - Bachmann model)

 

The easy bit is that I have both the transfers, and a range of colours that claim to be BR Freight Grey of the period (at least there could be some variety to shade and tone).

 

Many thanks for any help with these.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Toad B - if still running - on its last legs as freight traffic volumes ran down, Toad D more likely to still be in service.

 

The open wagons would all be one short trip from the breakers, if they were still in service, A few in a siding with 'Cond' or a big X on the side was a regular sight. The van might have a few years left...

 

 

[Alex TM]

Hi again,

 

Many thanks for that insight; it's very helpful.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[CKPR]

You could repaint them into unfitted grey, weather them heavily and then transfer them all to the engineering fleet, which is where many unfitted opens and brakes van spent their twilight years in the 1960s  -  life-expired open wagons in particular seem to have been used on spoil trains and didn't merit a full repaint.

Edited May 21, 2020 by CKPR

[SM42]

The LMS 5 plank may be suitable to be converted with the aid of a 10' wheelbase steel underframe if you can find one and assuming it's a 17' 6" body . That would get a few more years out of it into the 1960s.

 

Andy

[Steamport Southport]

They would all still be in service. Although not as many as in previous years.

 

The massive cull of Big Four era wagons didn't happen until the very late 1960s when air braked wagons started to appear and there was still some about through the 1970s.

 

 

Look in the Larkin books and Paul Bartlett's website.

 

For example LNER Toad B brake van clearly still in service in 1961 and in good condition.

 

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lnerbrake/e32035615

 

 

 

Jason

[Alex TM]

Hi again folks,

 

First, thanks for the further informative, and useful, responses.

 

CKPR:  The suggestion about using the wagons as engineers' stock is a good one.  I'll probably not go down this route as most of the layouts that I'm likely to have a go at will be smaller, industrially focussed, shunting ones.

 

SM42:  The LMS open look like an older type than the ones I've seen with a steel chassis.

 

Jason:  Thanks for the link to the photo site; I had looked there but had been unsuccessful until today.  Your link gave me an idea for a different search, and that produced some useful photos of the LNER 6-plank.

 

In terms of books, I have looked online for the Larkin series that covers from nationalisation until the middle sixties however some of the prices are just too high (I can't remember if it was the first or second volume but it was selling for almost £75 on Amazon).

 

Again, many thanks for taking the time and effort to help.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[SM42]

Have you  tried Titfield Thunderbolt bookshop.

 

https://www.titfield.co.uk/index.htm

 

They appear to have some of the Larkin books and I can recommend as a satisfied customer.

 

As to that LMS open, if it's a scale  17'6"  long then it can have a new underframe.  BR bulit some very similar wagons  (diagram 1/034) which bears more than a passing resemblance to LMS diagram D1892 or 2034

 

Ok, not a perfect match but passes the squint test.

 

I notice you may do an industrial layout. Where better for old wagons to live out their last days than as internal users in an industrial complex

 

Andy

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by SM42

[Alex TM]

Hi Andy,

 

Thanks for the practical suggestions, but:

 

Titfield have, it seems, all the David Larkin books that are currently in print; other than the latest two hardbacks (Inherited Brake Vans; and Steel Bodied Minerals) they all relate to a later period (i.e post-1962).

 

The Bachmann 5-plank is on a 16'6" chassis.

 

An 'industrial' layout does appeal to me but I am thinking more along the lines of a factory/industry served by the 'mainline' rather than an internal complex complete with ex-mainline stock.

 

Again, thanks for the ideas; it's encouraging.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

6 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

They would all still be in service. Although not as many as in previous years.

 

The massive cull of Big Four era wagons didn't happen until the very late 1960s when air braked wagons started to appear and there was still some about through the 1970s.

More nuanced than that. Not a cull, but just systematic replacement as life expired will have done for the majority of those two open types mentioned: both on 9' WB timber underframes meant they would largely be gone by 1960. Both types were very specifically being replaced, the mineral by the LNER, LMS, wartime REC and BR's colossal build of 16 tonners, and yet larger minerals; the ex LNER open by the LNER and BR high steel, and the equivalent LMS derived general merchandise open designs perpetuated by BR.

 

The increasingly rare survivors is what we are looking at for these two, so not too many on a post 1960 layout.

Edited May 21, 2020 by 34theletterbetweenB&D
to ad the bit that I nfigot to type

[Alex TM]

Hi again,

 

Managed to find an image of one of the unfitted LNER six-planks that's dated 1960 at Currie; it looks like it's in revenue service.  Unfortunately there's nothing in the image to confirm time or place.

 

https://twitter.com/salopianlyne/status/1252361021877923840

 

Perhaps more interesting is this mineral, stated as Tweedmouth in 1963, although would the load of ash and clinker make it internal user or service stock?

 

https://twitter.com/SalopianLyne/status/1226984653380358145

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Alex TM
Inserting link to second image.

[SM42]

That LNER six plank image is in the Larkin book "Pre nationalisation freight wagons on British Railways."

 

Photo is by Don Rowland. It is captioned as being at Currie, Mid-Lothian, 1960.

 

The caption makes no reference to what is was being used for at the time, but makes general comments about repairs with steel channel and such wagons ending their days in engineering or loco coal duties.

 

In this case it is noted as unpainted except for the number panel, although the steel work looks like it might have once hosted paint

 

Andy

Edited May 22, 2020 by SM42

[Alex TM]

Hi Andy,

 

I wonder if that six-plank is the same one as on the first of the Twitter links?

 

As for the book, I'll look for a review of it.  Thanks for the heads-up.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[Wheatley]

The only one not likely to be still around is the van, most were converted to VB between 1959-61. The others would still be around but in increasingly smaller numbers. Depending n which Bachman van it is the easiest option might be to add a vac cylinder and pipes :-)

 

The others would still be around but in increasingly smaller smaller numbers and often transferred to the Engineers. You have references above for the Toad B and LNER 6 plank (the one referenced by SM42 is indeed the one in the first Twitter link), the 'mineral' in the second twitter link is in fact another 6 plank. Use of unfitted 5 and 6 plankers to move ash and clinker from loco sheds seems to have been quite common.

 

I'm not sure which diagram the Bachmann LMS 5PO represents but there is one on the opposite page to the LNER 6 plank in "Pre-Nationalisation Freight Wagons on BR", another Don Rowland pic of a D1666 wagon in very neat grey with black panels at Granton in 1962. Caption states "...they served their new owners well and were used until the early 1960s when most non-fitted general purpose stock was phased out. Some were scrapped after being used briefly for loco coal and others went to various engineers' departments where they can still be found" (written in 1977). The LMS built tens of thousands of unfitted 5 planks, these are the ones Bob Essery (or might have been Don Rowland again) calculated that to be stricty accurate you need several hundred of for every loco on your layout.

[SM42]

Hi Alex,

 

The book was published in 1977 by Bradford and Barton. I was lucky to find it second hand.

 

I have had a quick browse through some other general steam books and wooden undeframe wagons were in evidence in freight (mainly coal) workings in 1962. Whether these are 10 or 9 footers. who knows? Quite possibly end door wagons too

 

The LMS open Wheatley refers to has a steel underframe so possibly a 17' 6" , 10' wheelbase.  Essery has the D1666 as 17' 6" body.

 

I have no idea what the Bachmann model is tryng to be. Possibly a D2157. I'm sure some LMS experts will know.

 

Agree on vac fitting the van.

 

Andy

Edited May 22, 2020 by SM42
Edit to add info

[Alex TM]

1 hour ago, Wheatley said:

I'm not sure which diagram the Bachmann LMS 5PO represents

 

Could it be an RCH design?

[Alex TM]

1 hour ago, SM42 said:

That LNER six plank image is in the Larkin book "Pre nationalisation freight wagons on British Railways."

Hi again,

 

Just found, and ordered, a copy.

 

Thanks again.

 

Alex.

[Wheatley]

SM42 is correct, I've misidentified it, sorry. The LMS 5 plank in Larkin is  a D1667 with the steel underframe. Sorry all, I should have known that, I built that very one from a Cambrian kit !

Edited May 22, 2020 by Wheatley

[SM42]

1 hour ago, Wheatley said:

SM42 is correct, I've misidentified it, sorry. The LMS 5 plank in Larkin is  a D1667 with the steel underframe. Sorry all, I should have known that, I built that very one from a Cambrian kit !

 

I was really hoping Alex had an older model  and a D1667 would have been perfect and so easy to convert.   At least there is a kit available for a D1667 and we know they were still plying their trade in the early 60s.

 

Alex, you'll find that book a treasure trove of wagons photos from c1960  - 1976.   Be careful though, it may lead to a rash of wagon aquisitions.

 

Andy

[Wheatley]

And a rash of wagon book aquisitions. Over 300 wagons and counting so far...

 

 

[Alex TM]

3 hours ago, Wheatley said:

And a rash of wagon book aquisitions.

 

3 hours ago, SM42 said:

 

I was really hoping Alex had an older model  and a D1667 would have been perfect and so easy to convert.   At least there is a kit available for a D1667 and we know they were still plying their trade in the early 60s.

 

Alex, you'll find that book a treasure trove of wagons photos from c1960  - 1976.   Be careful though, it may lead to a rash of wagon aquisitions.

 

Andy

It may be too late ........

[Ben Alder]

4 hours ago, SM42 said:

 

 

 

4 hours ago, SM42 said:

Alex, you'll find that book a treasure trove of wagons photos from c1960  - 1976.   Be careful though, it may lead to a rash of wagon aquisitions.

 

That was one of the ones that set me off - just rehoused my builds and reckon its in the three hundreds, mostly kits, plus the ones that have been culled as kits, and my abilities improved...

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

10 hours ago, Alex TM said:

Managed to find an image of one of the unfitted LNER six-planks that's dated 1960 at Currie; it looks like it's in revenue service.  Unfortunately there's nothing in the image to confirm time or place.

 

https://twitter.com/salopianlyne/status/1252361021877923840

 

Perhaps more interesting is this mineral, stated as Tweedmouth in 1963, although would the load of ash and clinker make it internal user or service stock?

 

https://twitter.com/SalopianLyne/status/1226984653380358145

Actually they are both the same basic design, LNER six plank General Merchandise Opens, and they both are still numbered as revenue service vehicles, but they are not the Oxford model. These are 10 foot wb, because they are constructed post 1933, the Oxford is 9' wb and these would have been pretty much gone by the early 1960s: the last few around might be in industrial use, departmental vehicles, or on a siding marked as condemned.

[Alex TM]

Hi again,

 

Larkin's book on pre-nationalisation wagons arrived this morning.  Oh dear, it's got lots and lots of interesting photos that have given me lots and lots of ideas; now I appreciate the warnings given to this effect!

 

One picture early on in the book caught my eye:  it's of an ex-LNER uniftted wooden hopper at Bo'ness in the 60s.  I know wagons of this design ended up in use on the Wemyss system in Fife, but this is the first I seen one of this design on the mainline elsewhere in Scotland.

 

Again, thanks for the suggestion about the book.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[SM42]

The nice bit is that many of them are available (some more available than others) as kits or RTR or from cross kitting.  You have a good chance with many of the vans, opens and 16 tonners

 

I've got too many wagons that are too early for me beause of this and other books. I don't think many fit into the TOPS era.

I now have green diesels and steam locos as a result.

 

Andy