GWR "Herring" Ballast Hopper Wagon

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hi,

 

In response to Fat Adder’s comments, the SDJR became the recipients of Herrings after they were deemed unsafe for use on double track lines. Consequently, there are some excellent images of Herrings on Sunday workings in Ivo Peters’ SDJR 1950s albums. 

 

The image of Shillingstone may be relevant but it is all I can find.

 

Cheers and Stay Safe

Edited November 1, 2020 by Jack Benson

[Phil Bullock]

Have been thinking about this too ... forgive the BR speak but principles might apply.....

 

Would it not be that ballast is transported to site in hoppers .... herring, dogfish, catfish mermaid etc ... and spent ballast goes to the tip in opens ... Grampus etc. 
 

The hoppers would be loaded at the quarry from a hopper or conveyor and taken to a holding point in the week ... say from Coleford to Worcester... and then worked out to the work site at the weekend for the job. I suspect it would be very difficult to load spent ballast in to hoppers at the track side job.... what plant would be available? Only something like a drott loader ... which could load opens but not hoppers. 
 

Job completed... empty hoppers return to Worcester then back to Coleford, opens go to Worcester with spent ballast loads then to Honeybourne tip for emptying in the week. Job done! 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Phil Bullock

[Guest Jack Benson]

The source of much of the ballast for the SDJR was Tytherington Quarry and it might please some to note that Hornby has released a model of the Peckett Daphne used at Tytherington

 

Creative commons licence -Wikipedia

 

Hornby publicity image

 

Cheers and Stay Safe

 

[Rivercider]

5 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

Have been thinking about this too ... forgive the BR speak but principles might apply.....

 

Would it not be that ballast is transported to site in hoppers .... herring, dogfish, catfish mermaid etc ... and spent ballast goes to the tip in opens ... Grampus etc. 
 

The hoppers would be loaded at the quarry from a hopper or conveyor and taken to a holding point in the week ... say from Coleford to Worcester... and then worked out to the work site at the weekend for the job. I suspect it would be very difficult to load spent ballast in to hoppers at the track side job.... what plant would be available? Only something like a drott loader ... which could load opens but not hoppers. 
 

Job completed... empty hoppers return to Worcester then back to Coleford, opens go to Worcester with spent ballast loads then to Honeybourne tip for emptying in the week. Job done! 

Yes that is exactly as I understood the operation. My dad was worked for the WR civil engineers, and I think I knew the difference between a dogfish and a sealion before I knew the difference between a mark 1 and mark 2 coach!  

Hoppers for ballast, grampus ( and a mixture of ling, starfish, tunny etc) for spoil or other materials.

The use of converted 21t coal hoppers (HTVs) or redundant MGR hoppers came much, much, later.

 

cheers

[The Fatadder]

So if im reading correctly the train would arrive with a number of hopper wagons and a ballast brake on the rear.   
 

a second train would be ran containing the Tunny etc open wagons, which would be loaded with the spent ballast.   
 

The new ballast would then be unloaded and used, before the hoppers return empty to the quarry.

[Phil Bullock]

21 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

So if im reading correctly the train would arrive with a number of hopper wagons and a ballast brake on the rear.   
 

a second train would be ran containing the Tunny etc open wagons, which would be loaded with the spent ballast.   
 

The new ballast would then be unloaded and used, before the hoppers return empty to the quarry.

Could be the same train if only a small job.... and possibly no plant, Just manpower. 
 

Films like this are well worth watching if you haven’t already seen them

 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Phil Bullock

[Rivercider]

23 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

So if im reading correctly the train would arrive with a number of hopper wagons and a ballast brake on the rear.   
 

a second train would be ran containing the Tunny etc open wagons, which would be loaded with the spent ballast.   
 

The new ballast would then be unloaded and used, before the hoppers return empty to the quarry.

I think the choreography of a weekend engineering site could be quite complex with only two lines to work on, but perhaps up to five or six trains in use. But the general idea was to load empty wagons with spoil first before unloading ballast. If track renewal was also taking place that added more complication with another train of track sections. Some of our RMweb members have first hand experience (like Trog I believe),

 

cheers

[Phil Bullock]

37 minutes ago, Rivercider said:

Yes that is exactly as I understood the operation. My dad was worked for the WR civil engineers, and I think I knew the difference between a dogfish and a sealion before I knew the difference between a mark 1 and mark 2 coach!  

Hoppers for ballast, grampus ( and a mixture of ling, starfish, tunny etc) for spoil or other materials.

The use of converted 21t coal hoppers (HTVs) or redundant MGR hoppers came much, much, later.

 

cheers

Many thanks Kevin

[Adam]

Pleased that the Cambrian Herring can be had again. I wouldn't mind building another (and one of Justin's Rumney Models ones - I am mid-way through building a GWR P7 from Southwark Bridge Models, via Roxey). Three or four would be about the maximum I really need for a c.1960 ballast rake... But that's for later.

 

Here's my first attempt (modelled in mid-60s garb to complement my Catfish and Dogfish).

 

 

 

Adam

 

 

[Captain Kernow]

2 hours ago, Adam said:

Pleased that the Cambrian Herring can be had again. I wouldn't mind building another (and one of Justin's Rumney Models ones - I am mid-way through building a GWR P7 from Southwark Bridge Models, via Roxey). Three or four would be about the maximum I really need for a c.1960 ballast rake... But that's for later.

 

Here's my first attempt (modelled in mid-60s garb to complement my Catfish and Dogfish).

 

 

 

Adam

 

 

Adam,

 

That's very nice indeed. Lovely work and weathering.

 

I have one question about the wheels. There are a couple of photos in the Cheona book on engineer's wagons, which show the Herring as having spoked wheels.

 

Were they all spoked or did some get three-hole discs?

 

Thanks.

 

[Captain Kernow]

2 hours ago, Rivercider said:

I think the choreography of a weekend engineering site could be quite complex with only two lines to work on, but perhaps up to five or six trains in use. But the general idea was to load empty wagons with spoil first before unloading ballast. If track renewal was also taking place that added more complication with another train of track sections. Some of our RMweb members have first hand experience (like Trog I believe),

 

cheers

You're quite right, Kevin.

 

I was involved quite a lot in the planning of engineering trains for possessions in my work for Network Rail for the last few years of my career, particularly the operational interface between the 'live' railway outside the possession and the possession itself. This was primarily to ensure that the running of engineers trains from 'virtual' quarries or holding yards to the site didn't delay other services on the operational railway, but also to ensure that the work went smoothly inside the possession.

 

If you're sending a loaded train of fresh ballast to a worksite, that train has to be held somewhere before it can be unloaded. There's no point to sending fresh ballast into a possession if it hasn't got somewhere to go, so it follows that you have to create a space for it, namely by excavating an equivalent quantity of old ballast and taking that away!

 

Old, spent ballast is almost always loaded (these days by road rail machines) into the kind of wagons that are easy to load into, usually some kind of 'open' wagon or their modern equivalent.

 

The exception to all this is the High Output Ballast Cleaning System, which 'beats as it sweeps as it cleans' - namely scoops up old ballast, cleans and retains what is worth re-using, then mixes it with fresh ballast and then lays the new mixture back on the track, all using a system of on-board conveyors. The train goes to site with a rake of empty hoppers at one end and loaded (fresh ballast) at the other end, with the 'business end' of complex machinery being in the middle of the formation.

 

It's also worth mentioning, from a modelling point of view, that the engineers don't always get it right and for various reasons, hopper wagons (applies to conventional wagons and the HOBCS) can sometimes return to the 'virtual quarry' or holding yard still loaded, the fresh ballast not used.

 

So a model of a ballast train with some empty and some full hopper wagons could be prototypical.

 

 

[Phil Bullock]

5 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

You're quite right, Kevin.

 

I was involved quite a lot in the planning of engineering trains for possessions in my work for Network Rail for the last few years of my career, particularly the operational interface between the 'live' railway outside the possession and the possession itself. This was primarily to ensure that the running of engineers trains from 'virtual' quarries or holding yards to the site didn't delay other services on the operational railway, but also to ensure that the work went smoothly inside the possession.

 

If you're sending a loaded train of fresh ballast to a worksite, that train has to be held somewhere before it can be unloaded. There's no point to sending fresh ballast into a possession if it hasn't got somewhere to go, so it follows that you have to create a space for it, namely by excavating an equivalent quantity of old ballast and taking that away!

 

Old, spent ballast is almost always loaded (these days by road rail machines) into the kind of wagons that are easy to load into, usually some kind of 'open' wagon or their modern equivalent.

 

The exception to all this is the High Output Ballast Cleaning System, which 'beats as it sweeps as it cleans' - namely scoops up old ballast, cleans and retains what is worth re-using, then mixes it with fresh ballast and then lays the new mixture back on the track, all using a system of on-board conveyors. The train goes to site with a rake of empty hoppers at one end and loaded (fresh ballast) at the other end, with the 'business end' of complex machinery being in the middle of the formation.

 

It's also worth mentioning, from a modelling point of view, that the engineers don't always get it right and for various reasons, hopper wagons (applies to conventional wagons and the HOBCS) can sometimes return to the 'virtual quarry' or holding yard still loaded, the fresh ballast not used.

 

So a model of a ballast train with some empty and some full hopper wagons could be prototypical.

 

 

Great explanation CK many thanks

[Adam]

50 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

Adam,

 

That's very nice indeed. Lovely work and weathering.

 

I have one question about the wheels. There are a couple of photos in the Cheona book on engineer's wagons, which show the Herring as having spoked wheels.

 

Were they all spoked or did some get three-hole discs?

 

Thanks.

 

 

Going on the Paul Bartlett gallery: https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brherring, 3 hole discs seem normal later (and on some P7s). The spoked wheels I've seen pictures of are 10 spoke rather than 8, however.

 

Adam

 

EDIT: PS - there's two Herring gallleries! https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrherring

 

Adam

Edited November 1, 2020 by Adam

[Captain Kernow]

1 minute ago, Adam said:

 

Going on the Paul Bartlett gallery: https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brherring, 3 hole discs seem normal later (and on some P7s). The spoked wheels I've seen pictures of are 10 spoke rather than 8, however.

 

Adam

 

Adam

That's fair comment and thanks for that, Adam. I might do just one token wagon with spokes, then, in my rake!

 

[Phil Bullock]

There’s an ex GW one with spoked wheels in the RCTS photo shop CK - dated mid 50s. Official works photo of BR batch shows 3 hole discs.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Phil Bullock

[Adam]

2 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

There’s an ex GW one with spoked wheels in the RCTS photo shop CK - dated mid 50s. Official works photo of BR batch shows 3 hole discs.

This one: https://rcts.zenfolio.com/rolling-stock/gwr/hA0FCA025

 

Dated 1959 at Evercreech, which is near enough for my purposes. It’s got 10 spoke (like Toad brakes), you’ll notice. 
 

Adam

[Phil Bullock]

5 minutes ago, Adam said:

This one: https://rcts.zenfolio.com/rolling-stock/gwr/hA0FCA025

 

Dated 1959 at Evercreech, which is near enough for my purposes. It’s got 10 spoke (like Toad brakes), you’ll notice. 
 

Adam

Yes that’s the one. For some reason I can’t link on my ipad

Edited November 1, 2020 by Phil Bullock

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm mistaken, but my understanding is that 8 spoke/split spoke wheels had an 8 ton weight limit, 10 spoke, funnily enough, 10 tons, 3 hole 13 tons and solid 25 tons.

Some early BR standard vans, the meat van for example, were initially built with spoked wheels, and a trawl of available photo's of various wagons in BR days shows wagons with a variety of combinations, including different types on one wagon.

 

Mike.

[figworthy]

21 hours ago, Adam said:

This one: https://rcts.zenfolio.com/rolling-stock/gwr/hA0FCA025

 

Dated 1959 at Evercreech, which is near enough for my purposes. It’s got 10 spoke (like Toad brakes), you’ll notice. 
 

Adam

 

I was expecting it to have a lever brake mechanism, but it looks as though it has got a Dean - Churchward arrangement, or am I missing something.

 

I've spent much of today arguing with the brake linkages on a Rumney models Herring, but looking at that picture, the hopper bracing is different.  The Rumney model is for the 1945 version, so is the picture of an earlier version ?

 

Adrian

[Miss Prism]

14 minutes ago, figworthy said:

The Rumney model is for the 1945 version, so is the picture of an earlier version ?

 

Yes. The RCTS pic is of a P7, which had a variant of DCII brake.

 

[Adam]

1 hour ago, figworthy said:

 

I was expecting it to have a lever brake mechanism, but it looks as though it has got a Dean - Churchward arrangement, or am I missing something.

 

I've spent much of today arguing with the brake linkages on a Rumney models Herring, but looking at that picture, the hopper bracing is different.  The Rumney model is for the 1945 version, so is the picture of an earlier version ?

 

Adrian

 

Yes, that's the precursor, a GWR P7, which would have started out much lower, probably with lever brake. On the other side would have been the vac' cylinder on a sort of outrigger and yes, Dean Churchward brakes. The Herrings had the same (pitifully small) leading dimensions but with slightly more sensible brake arrangements. Still pretty uncivilised compared to a Dogfish (based on a Leeds Forge design from the early years of the 20th century). See Geoff Kent's article in MRJ [EDIT - 257 not 247].

 

Adam

Edited November 2, 2020 by Adam

[figworthy]

18 minutes ago, Adam said:

See Geoff Kent's article in MRJ 247.

 

 Thanks, but I think that should be MRJ 257.

 

Adrian

[Adam]

Just now, figworthy said:

 Thanks, but I think that should be MRJ 257.

 

Adrian

 

You're right - sleeping baby on my arm and single hand typing doesn't aid precision!

 

Adam

[Downendian]

Aha more Herrings but too late all sold out! Hopefully another run and I understand on speaking to Phil Bullock on our hydraulic adventures on the SVR with D1015 and 40 106 (thanks Phil) that a new tool was required and made.

Anyhow  some Herrings in service with classic WR traction 

812 at Ivybridge in November 1971, 825 at Newton Abbot July 1972 and D1005 at Exeter Riverside, June 1976.

g

[Phil Bullock]

Cracking Neil ... and looks like a Compair compressor in the Venturer shot . 
 

That was a great day out on SVR ... here’s hoping it’s not too long before we can do it again....