GWR "Herring" Ballast Hopper Wagon

[Adam]

While I've nearly finished a model of the Herring's predecessor, the P7 (a right fiddle), I thought you might like this picture of a real Herring at Coleford. The interior is especially helpful, I think.

 

 

Adam

[Phil Bullock]

Very nice Adam thanks for sharing. Just starting to think about loads ,,, the weathering will follow! Rust and stone dust......

[Captain Kernow]

My two are now in black and I've just started putting the CCT transfers on.

 

Very useful photo, Adam, many thanks for posting that.

 

[Adam]

Thanks - the gallery that picture is in is well worth a look too. Some nice Forest of Dean images and lots of South Wales freight. Meanwhile, I’ve posted some of my travails with a Southwark Bridge Models GWR P7, the ancestor of the Herring. Hard work, but more here if you’re interested:

 

Adam

[Captain Kernow]

That's looking really nice, Adam.

 

[Captain Kernow]

 

2 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

Ah can see that now you say..... not surprising it moved to the end of the wagon in later designs. Think I have discovered why so few herrings were branded.... there isn’t room between the gussets to get the name in! Well not with Fox transfers any way....

Phil, have you found that to fit the excellent CCT transfers on the Cambrian herring, you need to cut the 'Ew' and the number out separately?

 

I also think that the horizontal handrail holes in the plastic hopper, just under where those markings go, are slightly too high.

 

[Phil Bullock]

1 hour ago, Captain Kernow said:

 

Phil, have you found that to fit the excellent CCT transfers on the Cambrian herring, you need to cut the 'Ew' and the number out separately?

 

I also think that the horizontal handrail holes in the plastic hopper, just under where those markings go, are slightly too high.

 

@Captain KernowAbsolutely, And the film has to overlap. Have also squeezed the tare weight in along side the handrail ... and on a few the CO ..? Circuit marking... in there too. Good fun....!

Edited November 28, 2020 by Phil Bullock

[Phil Bullock]

Thought I would add a bit more weight to the front and rear wagons in our rake with more white metal from Lanarkshire. It’s got to the point now that the postie recognises envelopes and reports their arrival to SWMBO!

 

So vac cylinder and pipe added... pipe is rather too tall, looking at @hmrspauls excellent photos the stand should finish below the vertical part of the hopper.... a shame, as it comes the high bracket just aligns nicely with the bottom of the vertical part of the hopper but probably 18 scale inches too high. Will have to cut the stand down  - which will make mounting less robust... and fabricate the bracket from scrap brass etch. Vac cylinder good fit ....

 

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by Phil Bullock

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

If you are very careful Phil you can bend the bottom bit of the pipe into a U/L bend, I assume because Uncle Dave uses a tad of pewter in his castings, then drill through it 0.5mm into the bufferbeam or whatever is around there and pin it with a bit of brass rod.

 

Mike.

[Captain Kernow]

I've seen photos with the 'low-slung' vacuum pipes, just coming out from under the buffer beam, so that's what I've done on my two Herring so far. More info here - 

 

 

[Phil Bullock]

15 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

I've seen photos with the 'low-slung' vacuum pipes, just coming out from under the buffer beam, so that's what I've done on my two Herring so far. More info here - 

 

 

 

Thanks Tim .... had seen a few too. Do like the upright pipes, add to the character so the two visible ends of our front and rear wagons will have them fitted.... the assumption then is that the rest have the low slung pipes as per your model.... almost invisible in a train! Number 16 nearly finished, waiting until all done to do loads and weathering.

 

As for weight, most RTR 2 axle wagons seem to weigh 40-45gms. Have just ordered some car wheel balance weights - a cheaper option than liquid lead for our long rake.. and am hoping they wont be too conspicuous in the bottom of the hoppers if we want to run empties.... Havent weighed wagon with large lump of whitemetal in form of vac cylinder yet, that ought to help!

 

And heres one where I have squeezed 4 elements of @cctransuk's transfers in to the one corner.... they have to be cut in to seperate elements. To get a decent appearance on matt black its a coat of Klear before the transfers, another coat afterwards then Testors Dullcote over everything once finished.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Phil Bullock

[Fat Controller]

1 minute ago, Phil Bullock said:

 

Thanks Tim .... had seen a few too. Do like the upright pipes, add to the character so the two visible ends of our front and rear wagons will have them fitted.... the assumption then is that the rest have the low slung pipes as per your model.... almost invisible in a train! Number 16 nearly finished, waiting until all done to do loads and weathering.

 

As for weight, most RTR 2 axle wagons seem to weigh 40-45gms. Have just ordered some car wheel balance weights - a cheaper option than liquid lead for our long rake.. and am hoping they wont be too conspicuous in the bottom of the hoppers if we want to run empties.... Havent weighed wagon with large lump of whitemetal in form of vac cylinder yet, that ought to help!

Flashing from your local builder's merchant is probably better for weighting the interior; you can even scribe it for planked floors

[Phil Bullock]

6 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Flashing from your local builder's merchant is probably better for weighting the interior; you can even scribe it for planked floors

 

Cheers - do have some lurking, rumours the local church roof leaks are unfounded....

[cctransuk]

51 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

And heres one where I have squeezed 4 elements of @cctransuk's transfers in to the one corner.... they have to be cut in to seperate elements. To get a decent appearance on matt black its a coat of Klear before the transfers, another coat afterwards then Testors Dullcote over everything once finished.

 

 

Well done, Phil - I never envisaged anyone trying that.

 

More commonly, the Ew, CO and tare weight were more widely distributed around the wagon side panels.

 

I suppose that the painter who marked-up the prototype of your wagon suffered from OCD - as do I !

 

John Isherwood,

https://www.cctrans.org.uk/

[Captain Kernow]

1 hour ago, Phil Bullock said:

 

Thanks Tim .... had seen a few too. Do like the upright pipes, add to the character so the two visible ends of our front and rear wagons will have them fitted.... the assumption then is that the rest have the low slung pipes as per your model.... almost invisible in a train! Number 16 nearly finished, waiting until all done to do loads and weathering.

 

As for weight, most RTR 2 axle wagons seem to weigh 40-45gms. Have just ordered some car wheel balance weights - a cheaper option than liquid lead for our long rake.. and am hoping they wont be too conspicuous in the bottom of the hoppers if we want to run empties.... Havent weighed wagon with large lump of whitemetal in form of vac cylinder yet, that ought to help!

 

And heres one where I have squeezed 4 elements of @cctransuk's transfers in to the one corner.... they have to be cut in to seperate elements. To get a decent appearance on matt black its a coat of Klear before the transfers, another coat afterwards then Testors Dullcote over everything once finished.

Thanks Phil, most interesting.

 

The photos in the Cheona book show the tare weight at the opposite end of the wagon, which is what I have done on my two.

 

I will probably fit some of the taller vacuum pipes on a couple of my next builds and at least one of those will also feature spoked wheels, instead of three hole discs (again, as per the Cheona book).

 

[Captain Kernow]

1 hour ago, Phil Bullock said:

As for weight, most RTR 2 axle wagons seem to weigh 40-45gms. Have just ordered some car wheel balance weights - a cheaper option than liquid lead for our long rake.. and am hoping they wont be too conspicuous in the bottom of the hoppers if we want to run empties.... Havent weighed wagon with large lump of whitemetal in form of vac cylinder yet, that ought to help!

As you say, all weight helps.

 

If you look at the 'liquid lead' in this photo:

 

This amount of 'liquid lead', plus that already distributed behind both buffer beams, represents a total wagon weight of 40g. I have decided to try 40g for the Herring and 50g for the Dogfish, I'll see how I get on!

 

Needless to say, the 'load' you see here will be disguised with a layer of ballast and there will also be a removable 'full load' of ballast to go on top of that.

 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Captain Kernow

[Siberian Snooper]

If the Herring discharge door is as difficult to close against a discharging load, as it is on Dogfish, there won't be much left in it hopper. That's just opening one door at a time, this was discovered the hard way on a re-ballasting job on the ESR. For limited areas we reverted to open wagons and shovelled it, as it was easier than shifting it from the ground.

 

 

[Captain Kernow]

6 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

If the Herring discharge door is as difficult to close against a discharging load, as it is on Dogfish, there won't be much left in it hopper. That's just opening one door at a time, this was discovered the hard way on a re-ballasting job on the ESR. For limited areas we reverted to open wagons and shovelled it, as it was easier than shifting it from the ground.

 

 

Full loads it is, then, as it's not possible to put the weight anywhere else!

 

[Phil Bullock]

6 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

Thanks Phil, most interesting.

 

The photos in the Cheona book show the tare weight at the opposite end of the wagon, which is what I have done on my two.

 

I will probably fit some of the taller vacuum pipes on a couple of my next builds and at least one of those will also feature spoked wheels, instead of three hole discs (again, as per the Cheona book).

 

Looking at the video in this thread it looks like wagon lettering went wherever the painter chose... Have replicated that. 
 

Have also followed @Enterprisingwesterns advice and shortened and carefully rebent the vac pipe upright to make it shorter. Also surprised myself by successfully soldering a length of 0.4mm square brass section to the bracket on the upright which gives more than adequate bracing. 
 

Every day is a learning day here! 

[Enterprisingwestern]

18 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

If the Herring discharge door is as difficult to close against a discharging load, as it is on Dogfish, there won't be much left in it hopper. That's just opening one door at a time, this was discovered the hard way on a re-ballasting job on the ESR. For limited areas we reverted to open wagons and shovelled it, as it was easier than shifting it from the ground.

 

 

 

I thought the whole point of a hopper wagon, bogie or 4 wheeled, was to be either full or empty, it is nigh on impossible to securely shut the hopper door part way through a drop and maintain a seal which prevents further ballast from leaking out?

I do realise BTW that operational practicalities override the the original intentions!

 

13 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

Looking at the video in this thread it looks like wagon lettering went wherever the painter chose... Have replicated that. 
 

Have also followed @Enterprisingwesterns advice and shortened and carefully rebent the vac pipe upright to make it shorter. Also surprised myself by successfully soldering a length of 0.4mm square brass section to the bracket on the upright which gives more than adequate bracing. 
 

Every day is a learning day here! 

 

Always happy to set you a little task Phil!

 

Mike.

[Phil Bullock]

Yes agree re full or empty... but got to get weight in somewhere. It’s going to be a question of what looks least obtrusive in bottom of hopper. It ain’t car wheel balance weights... lead flashing next, them back to liquid lead !

[Fat Controller]

19 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

Yes agree re full or empty... but got to get weight in somewhere. It’s going to be a question of what looks least obtrusive in bottom of hopper. It ain’t car wheel balance weights... lead flashing next, them back to liquid lead !

 

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I thought the whole point of a hopper wagon, bogie or 4 wheeled, was to be either full or empty, it is nigh on impossible to securely shut the hopper door part way through a drop and maintain a seal which prevents further ballast from leaking out?

I do realise BTW that operational practicalities override the the original intentions!

 

 

Always happy to set you a little task Phil!

 

Mike.

There are indeterminate states, when hoppers only partially discharge; there was a derailment near Angerstein Wharf, where a hopper was found to have about 9 tonnes of aggregate stuck firmly in one corner.

[Phil Bullock]

38 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

 

There are indeterminate states, when hoppers only partially discharge; there was a derailment near Angerstein Wharf, where a hopper was found to have about 9 tonnes of aggregate stuck firmly in one corner.

And that Forest of Dean ballast is notoriously sticky..... stickier in fact that when Sticky the Stick insect got stuck on a sticky bun....

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, Phil Bullock said:

And that Forest of Dean ballast is notoriously sticky..... stickier in fact that when Sticky the Stick insect got stuck on a sticky bun....

As an old colleague used to say 'Sticks like s**t to a blanket'

[Captain Kernow]

A cautionary tale here, I have been working on Herring number 3 and got to the stage last night, where I needed to put most of the required weight (40 g) in the hopper, in the form of liquid lead.

 

I put the liquid lead in and droppered in some Klear to fix it (this would be followed by some PVA, as I don't trust Klear not to go brittle).

 

I then started work on the tie bars (trying the ruse of soldering small spigots of 0.4mm wire on the reverse side, to go into holes that I will drill at the bottom of each axle guard, just to try to avoid accidentally dislodging the tie bar when handling the finished wagon).

 

Oh, I thought, how much clearance is there between the wheel and the axleguard? I picked the wagon up, turned it over and then remembered about the liquid lead and damp Klear, which deposited itself all over the workbench.

 

I managed to retrieve most of it, but decided to stop work at that point until this morning!