LNWR wagon grey?

[Peter King]

I’ve just received a tin let of Phoenix Precision paint “LNWR freight wagon grey” and consider it very dark, yet all ref, images appear as mid grey, any thoughts?

[richbrummitt]

I don't think that looks too dark. 

[Caley Jim]

As I've said elsewhere on several occasions, I think we get too hung up about the exact shade of, particularly, wagon colours.  I won't repeat again a story I heard of a former painter at Doncaster being asked how they mixed the grey paint from the black and white pigments, but his response to detailed queries was they they weren't too bothered about the exact mix and it could vary from batch to batch (which probably meant day to day).  He said the 'bosses' were only fussy about the colour of the top link locos.

In any case, a few days out of shops in the smokey, sulphurous atmosphere of late 19th/early 20th century industrial Britain and I doubt two wagons would be the same colour.

 

Jim

[PenrithBeacon]

It's difficult to be sure but I've always thought that LNW wagon grey was a dark blue grey ie a dark grey with a hint of blue. Many years ago I came across a person at a show who said that this was so and he had a chip off an LNW wagon which showed that it was so. I saw no reason to disbelieve him, you could see LNW wagons in industrial service then.

[Penlan]

Page 129 of LNWR Liveries, HMRS, says '... the overwhelming majority of goods wagons were a plain medium lead grey, the paint being mixed from black and white pigments in equal proportions, and accordingly a little darker than LMS grey......'.
I would agree that as the early 20th century advanced, the grey did appear to be roughly darker, but if that was from weathering or not, I don't know.
Peter King, I personally wouldn't be happy with how dark that grey is, but that's just me.
If the wagon had been photographed in bright sunlight, it might well look a bit/lot lighter.
Phoenix Precision paints have varied a bit over the years too - I have 3 different LNWR coach whites.

[Alex TM]

Hi Peter,

 

Several decades ago I built a couple (translate "build" as "make a pigs ear of") of kits of LNWR wagons, and the paint recommended was a very, very, dark grey.  They were from the Ratio kits, and I am sure the recommended paint was from Gloy.

 

I also think that Caley Jim's point is worth bearing in mind.  I've had a similar conversation with a former painter at Glasgow Works; rail blue was dependent on undercoat, mix of paint, amount of thinners, number of coats, mood of the painter, etc, etc.

 

Finally, I would err on the side of going a bit on the light side.  A friend use to build and paint model buses; they were always too dark as the paint specification closely matched that of the real thing making it too dark on the model.

 

All that said, I do like your model; is it a cut'n'shut from a couple of Peco kits?  If so, then it's very well executed.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[Hibelroad]

The models by J P Richards in York museum should be a good guide. Obviously not accessible at the moment, but I found a few photos and allowing for the cabinet lighting etc I would say that his wagon grey is a very dark shade. 

[Guy Rixon]

All greys in the Pheonix-Precision range seem to be rather dark. I think this may be because they are designed for larger-scale models. One's eye sees them as a darker shade on a smaller area.

 

I find that varnishing darkens a model, so I mix my greys a little lighter than I need to offset this.

[PenrithBeacon]

I think that what we think of a dark grey and what the Victorians thought of as a dark grey is very different. I have a print of an LNW gunpowder van which I acquired from the publicity office at Euston in the seventies and it shows an obviously newly repainted van in a very dark grey with white lettering and a white roof. Even if you take into account that the photographer had exposed for the highlights it is still very dark indeed.

LMS grey is always refered to as a medium grey but it always seems to me to occupy the no man's land between light and medium.

Regards

[corneliuslundie]

For what it is worth Carter in "British railway liveries" says (page 125) "1897 Goods stock was painted a dark slate colour" but later "1914 Goods vehicles were described as medium grey". His reference for this latter colour is sample 42 which I would have definitely called a medium grey.

So writing before 1953 he considered that the colour got lighter over the years.

Jonathan

[Edwardian]

Yes, I agree that getting hung up about precise colours is a Fool's Errand for a number of reasons. 

 

However, there is a limit to how dark one should probably take it given that it was evidently light enough to contrast with the very dark grey applied for a time to outside framing.

 

I was pretty happy with my take

 

 

[NCB]

All things are relative. Take real railway colours. Those seen in the height of summer after many days of glorious sunshine will look quite different on a summers day where rain clouds are dominant, and especially after a shower has just past. The latter will be considerably more saturated, and darker. The old adage that true black is never seen on railways simply doesn't apply under the latter conditions.

 

Then there's the model. Colours vary enormously depending on the lighting available. And taking pics there's the question of how the camera is set up. Your pic at the start of this thread looks generally rather dark to me, so may not reflect how relatively dark the colour is. I'd suggest going on gut feeling and how it looks relative to your other stock.

 

Nigel

[Peter King]

Thanks fellas, feel much better hearing you views, will repaint to nearer medium grey. In response to your comment Alex, it is a kit bash from a Peco kit, one fault is that planking on sides are vertical whereas originals were horizontal, but as a representation of a D93 brake van in n gauge I am comfortable with it. I’m modelling part of the East Leicestershire GN and LNWR Joint line. Once again, thank you all, Peter

[Poggy1165]

Personally, I try to paint my GC wagons so that no two are exactly the same shade of grey. I strongly suspect that there were so many variables at work that you would not get a uniform colour. 

 

1. First, paints were mixed by hand. There was a theoretical ratio, but I doubt they measured the paint with any degree of exactitude.

2. It was done in different locations, under the direction of different foremen.

3. Weathering, and the filthy industrial atmosphere of the time would work on the paint.

4. Wagons were covered in muck anyway. Even in those days, no one washed or polished wagons.

5. The bosses weren't that bothered as long as the wagons did their job. 

 

But that's just my theory. If anyone wants to believe there was a Duluxe wagon grey ready mixed that was always used, feel free.

[Edwardian]

4 minutes ago, Poggy1165 said:

Personally, I try to paint my GC wagons so that no two are exactly the same shade of grey. I strongly suspect that there were so many variables at work that you would not get a uniform colour. 

 

1. First, paints were mixed by hand. There was a theoretical ratio, but I doubt they measured the paint with any degree of exactitude.

2. It was done in different locations, under the direction of different foremen.

3. Weathering, and the filthy industrial atmosphere of the time would work on the paint.

4. Wagons were covered in muck anyway. Even in those days, no one washed or polished wagons.

5. The bosses weren't that bothered as long as the wagons did their job. 

 

But that's just my theory. If anyone wants to believe there was a Duluxe wagon grey ready mixed that was always used, feel free.

 

Pretty much my approach

[richbrummitt]

4 minutes ago, Poggy1165 said:

Personally, I try to paint my GC wagons so that no two are exactly the same shade of grey. I strongly suspect that there were so many variables at work that you would not get a uniform colour. 

 

1. First, paints were mixed by hand. There was a theoretical ratio, but I doubt they measured the paint with any degree of exactitude.

 

But that's just my theory. If anyone wants to believe there was a Duluxe wagon grey ready mixed that was always used, feel free.

 

Shovels are one measure I have read of being used for paint mixing somewhere, though I can't recall where. Anyone who's mixed concrete this way will know that it's a really rough way to measure anything, requires adjustment as you go, and you stop adding and blending when you've got enough mix and it looks like it'll do. 

[Guy Rixon]

I've always tried to maintain a scale of darkness with {MR, Cambrian, Met.} < {SECR (Wainwright), GCR, LNWR} < {GWR, SECR (Maunsell)}. This satisfies the principle of least astonishment and seems sufficient.

[mike morley]

One thing I have learned the hard way is that Phoenix paint doesnt mix too kindly with other brands.

A few years ago I had a tin of what was supposed to be Midland freight light grey but was clearly much too dark.  I lightened it with a bit of Humbrol white and it took on a distinctly greenish tinge.  Then, only last week, I thinned some LBSC freight grey using ordinary DIY store white spirit and, again, it took on a distinctly green tinge.

[Penlan]

Mention of J.P.Richards grey colour,
This is a photo of one of his wagons, a Swansea & Carmarthan District Coal Wagon ( Dia., 27).
I'm not sure where I've copied this from, I thought it was from the excellent 'Forty Years of the L&NWR Soc., ' publication, But I can't see it........
There are various photo's of Jim's stock in there, all of a similar grey,
plus other erstwhile LNWR modellers models who all seem to have come to a similar colour rendition.
My interest in this wagon, I model the southern end of the Central Wales line, circa 1910 
and I have a few of these on my layout.
Also attached, two in traffic and note different lettering, or none visible.
.... and the footprints on the coal of the G.C.G wagons 

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Penlan

[Edwardian]

I paint with acrylics, water-based. never use clean colours.  Grey always has some brown in it, so it mellows the colours at scale. I mix for an approximate visual match, so there will always be some slight variation between wagons ostensibly of the same colour.  I tend to let the water get dirty!  Then I dry-brush the relief features.

 

Rather than start with something clean and pure and wholesome, like Penlan's stunning wagon-build above, and then weather, I'm half-way towards a non-pristine working wagon before I weather it.

[Penlan]

17 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Rather than start with something clean and pure and wholesome, like Penlan's stunning wagon-build above, and then weather, I'm half-way towards a non-pristine working wagon before I weather it.

That's not mine, that's Jim's.  I was fortunate to be able to visit Jim back in the late 60's at Abergwynant Hall, when he was getting to the end of his LNWR's wagon production, a wonderful modeller, I made a few notes at the time, though many were lost during some 'upheavals' in life. 
I take a more relaxed colour approach, grey primer, which varies according to source, and add a bit of 'difference', plus handling grime ? ....... 
These days I'm the only one who see's my work, so I can relax, I'm happy.... 

Some mischievous person is trying to get another article out of the layout, probably in 2 - 3 years time - It celebrates it's first appearance at Kidderminster 30 years ago next year, when it was the property of John Degg and Bill Wood, though a lot of my stock was on the layout then too.  Currently it's being changed from an 'end to end' to a 'roundy-roundy' with about 60' of a run all the way round, in EM.
So from the article, I expect there will be further comments on the colours I use, or not.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Penlan

[Compound2632]

Here is the NRM's gallery of J.P. Richards wagons. His LNWR wagon grey seems to be only a little darker than his Midland grey, the latter being generally acknowledged to be at the lighter end of the grey scale, at least for freshly-painted wagons. When I first built Ratio LNWR wagons many years ago, I used a darker grey (which I have since replicated using Precision NBR freight stock grey) - I think I was influenced by colour photos of Geoff Williams' Aylesbury and also Jack Nelson's dioramas. Looking now at photos freshly painted wagons in the three volumes of LNWR Wagons, I've become convinced that the ex-works colour was as lighter grey than I've used, mid-grey being as good a description as any - certainly darker than Midland grey. 

 

Wagon greys were based on white lead, with a proportion of black mixed in: the Midland recipie used 4 lb of black to 112 lb of white lead, the LNWR used equal parts of black and white, the colour being described as slightly darker than LMS grey [LNWR Wagons Vol. 1, p. 11]. I believe I've read the statement that Great Western grey was seven parts black to one of white. As has been discussed elsewhere, white lead (lead carbonate) undergoes a chemical reaction with jydrogen sulfide - a prevalent atmospheric pollutant in those coal-burning days - to form black lead sulfide, resulting in a darkening of the shade of grey over time. So a rule of thumb for wagon painting is to have a few of one's wagons in the ex-works grey but the majority a variety of shades darker.

 

I'm told that any bluish tinge should be avoided in representing a white lead-based grey, this being more of a feature of greys based on titanium dioxide. I've found some Precision wagon colours very wide of the mark - their Midland freight wagon grey is a sickly green; by contrast their LMS freight stock grey looks about right to my eyes for freshly-painted Midland wagons - as it should, since the LMS recipie was unchanged from the Midland one at least until 1929, when zinc white replaced the white lead, though with the same proportion of black [R.J. Essery & K.R. Morgan, The LMS Wagon (David & Charles, 1977].

[Guy Rixon]

Comparing the photos of wagons from the same railway, there is significant variation. I wonder: did Mr Richards make reasonable variations of each company's grey, or has the NRM photographer adjusted the colour in these photos?

[Compound2632]

Here's a couple of non-NRM official photos of J.P. Richards' wagons: coke wagons etc.; loco coal etc. 

 

 

[Edwardian]

On a brief look it seemed that he chose darker shades for the later liveries.  I was not aware that LNWR grey was changed, just the markings/lettering.