GW Adventure - a track planning tale

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Just a PS on this discussion about clearances on small layouts and this design in particular.  I’ve had the opportunity this weekend to get out the boards again and check the clearances using actual track and rolling stock and using the revised final plan:

 

(Sorry, photo no longer available)

 

The measurements check out, and there is now room to pass a 40” train stationary in the Down platform loop (anti-clockwise) at Top Station: the distance between the inner ends of the points at each of the loop is nearer 49” than the 48 3/4” expected.

 

Clearances are still tight - the platform at Lower Station can extend to 30” although with a maximum width in the centre of  2”.  For  the main Up Platform at Top Station it is 1 3/4”.

 

It’ll be interesting to see how Harlequin interprets the brief when ready - there’s no rush: I think I’ve refined the design as far as I can with the help of the Forum, thank you (I’ll have said that before, but I also now know everything can fit on the baseboards).

 

Any regrets?  Only the lack of space for Station buildings - which wasn’t on my list of requirements.  Maybe for the next layout...

Edited October 9, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke
Edited for text only as photo no longer available

[Harlequin]

Here's the basic plan of my idea:

 

Very similar to your plan but:

• Two passing loops, both just about long enough for 40in trains to pass and to stand with all carriages alongside the platforms (but not at the same time). It is very tight, though!
• I've used R2 curves for roughly 60 degrees in the upper left and lower right boards. R3 and above everywhere else. Breaks one of the Givens. This is to help pull track in from the edges and give a bit more length to the passing loops.
• The R2 sections will be disguised by scenic elements.
• There are more tracks crossing baseboards joints. Breaks one of the Druthers. This is done to give trailing connections to the loops and longer sidings.
• There are two small radius turnouts and a slip but the turning routes through them are not in the running lines. 6 curved, 3 mediums.
• I have imagined that the lower station has a more conventional combination of passing loop, passenger platforms and goods yard. Not any carriage sidings.
• Carriage/Exchange sidings are at the upper station which is imagined to be near the junction with the main line. No goods yard as such but there is the local loading dock. The upper passing loop can be passenger both ways or, by removing one of the platforms, just a goods passing loop.
• Central scenic divider is just a spine of hills with trees.

Here's how it could look scenically:

Don't take any of this too literally - it's just to get the main ideas across.

• The top left R2 curve is in a cutting with trees around it.
• The bottom right R2 curve is partly in a tunnel and partly obscured by buildings.
• The shed area would have water, coal and ash facilities but I haven't placed them yet.
• Signal boxes near the major pointwork, station staff operate the crossings at the other ends of the stations.
• The majority of the hill and tree planting is on the upper boards.
• Note two station buildings!
• Min platform width the regulation 24mm (plus 2mm for fencing), except the inner platform of upper station, where I had to get special permission from the BoT to go thinner near the turnout for the exchange sidings...

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

7 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Here's the basic plan of my idea:

 

Very similar to your plan but:

• Two passing loops, both just about long enough for 40in trains to pass and to stand with all carriages alongside the platforms (but not at the same time). It is very tight, though!
• I've used R2 curves for roughly 60 degrees in the upper left and lower right boards. R3 and above everywhere else. Breaks one of the Givens. This is to help pull track in from the edges and give a bit more length to the passing loops.
• The R2 sections will be disguised by scenic elements.
• There are more tracks crossing baseboards joints. Breaks one of the Druthers. This is done to give trailing connections to the loops and longer sidings.
• There are two small radius turnouts and a slip but the turning routes through them are not in the running lines. 6 curved, 3 mediums.
• I have imagined that the lower station has a more conventional combination of passing loop, passenger platforms and goods yard. Not any carriage sidings.
• Carriage/Exchange sidings are at the upper station which is imagined to be near the junction with the main line. No goods yard as such but there is the local loading dock. The upper passing loop can be passenger both ways or, by removing one of the platforms, just a goods passing loop.
• Central scenic divider is just a spine of hills with trees.

Here's how it could look scenically:

Don't take any of this too literally - it's just to get the main ideas across.

• The top left R2 curve is in a cutting with trees around it.
• The bottom right R2 curve is partly in a tunnel and partly obscured by buildings.
• The shed area would have water, coal and ash facilities but I haven't placed them yet.
• Signal boxes near the major pointwork, station staff operate the crossings at the other ends of the stations.
• The majority of the hill and tree planting is on the upper boards.
• Note two station buildings!
• Min platform width the regulation 24mm (plus 2mm for fencing), except the inner platform of upper station, where I had to get special permission from the BoT to go thinner near the turnout for the exchange sidings...

 

This is excellent - thank you for taking the time to prepare - and illustrate - this.  It will definitely work.
 

I think it is a perfect example of when a Given should be broken: as I use r-t-r rolling stock it will negotiate the 2nd radius curves.  I went for 3rd Rad. as a minimum for aesthetic reasons, but for just a 60 degree turn at each end (hidden scenically) no-one would notice.  Personally I know from past experience (photo posted in another thread) that a compound end curve is no trouble.

 

Relaxing the number of tracks crossing baseboard joints - increase from 6 to 10 - is for sidings, not running lines, and all are straightforward.  I had a layout using Setrack some years ago in a different house that used the same boards and had 11 lines crossing the joints in total - it took a bit of care to set up but it was worth it.

 

Clearances are tight - but they always will be.  As noted in other posts recently, this is only when running maximum length trains.  When normal Service is resumed, this is no problem.

 

The arrangement bottom left with converging platforms has a prototype at Witney Passenger on the Fairford line - the building there was in a different place, but I had a Station in the corner on a previous layout with a level crossing and it looked fine.  Whenever I’ve been translating American model railroad designs for UK practice I’ve found that helpful as they frequently plonk a depot in a corner (in their case often to get it out of the way!).

 

Are there any things to think about - not to redraw - just two: the backstory for the location of the engine shed (the location and arrangement works practically- loco coal wagons can use the second siding so the short engine shed siding is no trouble: it’s also something I did on my Setrack layout).  And the entrance point for the exchange sidings is where a loco might be paused in that loop - avoiding stalling on the point when starting is to be watched for.  But I wouldn’t change either of these - the layout has balance and plenty to go at.  
 

I’d just need a lot of practice making trees (but worth it - they provide the scenic break the layout needs).  Thank you once again.

 

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Keith Addenbrooke
(insert word: wagons)

[Zomboid]

For what little it's worth, in that layout I would try to get the engine shed at the "junction" (ie top) station, rather than a through station on the branch. It just feels a more likely place for it to be.

 

That would probably mean putting it top left, and as a consequence the loading dock would have to move to the inside of the station, off the exchange/ carriage road, and served by anti clockwise trains instead. It would have good road access there at least.

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Here's the basic plan of my idea:

 

Very similar to your plan but:

• Two passing loops, both just about long enough for 40in trains to pass and to stand with all carriages alongside the platforms (but not at the same time). It is very tight, though!
• I've used R2 curves for roughly 60 degrees in the upper left and lower right boards. R3 and above everywhere else. Breaks one of the Givens. This is to help pull track in from the edges and give a bit more length to the passing loops.
• The R2 sections will be disguised by scenic elements.
• There are more tracks crossing baseboards joints. Breaks one of the Druthers. This is done to give trailing connections to the loops and longer sidings.
• There are two small radius turnouts and a slip but the turning routes through them are not in the running lines. 6 curved, 3 mediums.
• I have imagined that the lower station has a more conventional combination of passing loop, passenger platforms and goods yard. Not any carriage sidings.
• Carriage/Exchange sidings are at the upper station which is imagined to be near the junction with the main line. No goods yard as such but there is the local loading dock. The upper passing loop can be passenger both ways or, by removing one of the platforms, just a goods passing loop.
• Central scenic divider is just a spine of hills with trees.

 

 

One minor problem - it has sevral passing loops which are too short for 40" long (passenger) trains to pass each other.  The loops at the top of the plan will require one trains to be a bit less than 36" long in order to fit in a signal clear of the fouling point of the additional sidings you have added and be clear of the fouling point at the other end.

 

At the lower passing loops the loop at the bottom will just about take a train 36" long if all goes well, the upper of the two loops won't have enough room clear of fouling points and signal position for a train 36" long - but fortunately(?)  that loop happens to be the one which aligns with the shorter loop at the top of the plant

[Harlequin]

4 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

One minor problem - it has sevral passing loops which are too short for 40" long (passenger) trains to pass each other.  The loops at the top of the plan will require one trains to be a bit less than 36" long in order to fit in a signal clear of the fouling point of the additional sidings you have added and be clear of the fouling point at the other end.

 

At the lower passing loops the loop at the bottom will just about take a train 36" long if all goes well, the upper of the two loops won't have enough room clear of fouling points and signal position for a train 36" long - but fortunately(?)  that loop happens to be the one which aligns with the shorter loop at the top of the plant

 

Yes, long trains might have to stand foul of the inner sidings points in a non-prototypical way but I don't think it's possible to squeeze much more loop length out of the space available. I think this is just about as good as it's going to ever be and hopefully the compromise is acceptable to fit it into 4 by 8.

 

[Harlequin]

3 hours ago, Zomboid said:

For what little it's worth, in that layout I would try to get the engine shed at the "junction" (ie top) station, rather than a through station on the branch. It just feels a more likely place for it to be.

 

That would probably mean putting it top left, and as a consequence the loading dock would have to move to the inside of the station, off the exchange/ carriage road, and served by anti clockwise trains instead. It would have good road access there at least.

Good point. It might balance the features of the two stations better as well.

 

Probably simplest to just swap the loading dock and the shed - but then would the layout feel the same? It's quite nice to have one busy little place and the other a bit quieter and simpler.

 

I don't know.

 

You can certainly imagine some plausible back-story to explain why the shed is where it is. All sorts of odd things happened in the real world!

 

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

A couple more thoughts if I might add them at this point:

________________________________

 

With regards to the idea Zomboid suggests of moving the Engine Shed, inevitably there are trade-offs:

 

On the positive side, I think the rationale for it at the "Junction" station with the exchange sidings becomes easier.  Also, moving the loading dock to the other side of the station places it next to the Station Building, which makes sense and justifies the larger Station Building - this type of arrangement was discussed on a related thread:  GW Branch Line Station Buildings  

 

The down side is that one of the Exchange Sidings is affected - it could start to look more like a typical Goods Yard instead (not a problem as such, but the layout already has one at Lower Station).  Note the need to avoid having a point across the 4' Grid line as that is a baseboard joint, if creating a Loading Dock Bay behind the Platform.  The gentle angle of the exchange sidings as drawn by Harlequin helps maintain space between the stations, so road access round to a loading dock would need to be carefully thought through - or just shorten the first Exchange Siding and add a side / end loading dock.

 

More generally, having the Engine Shed at either top left or bottom right would allow for a dodge that might be worth considering - the Engine Shed could have a false back and feed a short Cassette Fiddle Stick for changing over locomotives.  Given the increasing delicacy of features on small locomotives (eg: fine wire handrails), it is more difficult to pick them up without damaging them, so this might be useful - and not a gimmick.

_______________________________________

 

If the Loading Dock and Engine Shed swap places (per Harlequin's post just now), then it keeps the Loading Dock on the outer or clockwise side, where longer trains can fit more comfortably into the loops (noting The Stationmaster's point).  This makes sense when running loaded tail traffic on passenger trains (I think empties can return anticlockwise in shorter Goods Trains?).  Keeping shorter trains on the inside helps now there are running lines with trailing inside points at both stations.

 

The trade off is between the character of the two stations, as Harlequin notes.  With the Engine Shed bottom right, I think it maybe ought to look like an inherited facility from the original independent builders of the line before it was absorbed into the GW.

 

On balance I think the idea of moving the Engine Shed has merit, but I'd probably stick with it at bottom right.

______________________________________

 

Thinking about the compound curve idea a bit more (this is the: "why didn't I think of this?" moment).  If I go back to my own final design and swap out the central 45 degree 3rd Rad. Setrack Curve at each end for a 2nd Rad. curve then it gives another 2" width and eases considerably the problem of fitting in Station buildings.

 

Along with my r-t-r rolling stock I do have a rake of kit-built 3 Ratio 4-wheelers which don't like anything tighter than 3rd radius, but that's because of the couplings I used (the small ones in the kit).  As a result I don't use them much anyway.  Changing the couplings, which I ought to do anyway, would address this problem - the track doesn't have to take the weight of solving all the issues! (NB: I've already shortened the long buffers that came with the kit so these no longer lock, or they would be a second problem here).

 

In other words, there are other easy to do things to support Harlequin's design where it changes this given.

 

There's one more point I'd like to cover which I'll come back to later.  Needless to say, I am quite taken with Harlequin's development of the idea.

 

[Chimer]

10 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Thinking about the compound curve idea a bit more (this is the: "why didn't I think of this?" moment).  If I go back to my own final design and swap out the central 45 degree 3rd Rad. Setrack Curve at each end for a 2nd Rad. curve then it gives another 2" width and eases considerably the problem of fitting in Station buildings.

 

 

Or a double and a single R2 would give you 67.5 degrees, closer to Phil's "around 60" and probably still largely hidden by his scenic dodges .... choices, choices ....

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Just a couple of things to finish and I think I’m done:

 

One option Harlequin mentioned for this scheme is to dispense with the upper platform at Top Station.  As I’d be inclined to keep the loading dock on that side I’d want to keep this Platform.  With the straighter lines, it feels more like the “Junction” station to me and I think the character would change a bit too much to have two platforms at Lower Station but just one at Top Station.

 

With regards to track and points, The Stationmaster has highlighted the Signalling issue with longer trains fouling points.  From the point of view of “playing trains” there’s also a risk of stalling, particularly with DC control and Insulfrog points.  Electrofrog points would be one way to reduce this risk, especially if accompanied by a change to DCC.  Keeping most trains short avoids these issues, particularly the signalling problem.

 

Finally, Harlequin uses a helpful colour coding for different sized points but I’m slightly colour blind, so here is what I understand to be the parts list (all points Peco Streamline Flat-bottom ranges), working clockwise from top left:

 

Top Station:

 

Loop entry - Right hand Curved
Loading Dock - Left hand Medium

Exchange Sidings Entry Point (Trailing) - Right hand Short

Exchange Sidings Point - Right hand Medium

Loop exit - Left hand Medium Left hand Curved

 

Lower Station

 

Loop entry (bottom right) - Right hand Curved

Engine Shed Entry Point (Trailing) - Left hand Curved

Engine Service Siding - Left hand Short

Goods Yard Entry (Trailing) - Right hand Medium Right hand Curved

Goods Yard - Single Slip

Loop exit - Left hand Curved.

 

Principal Buildings

 

2 Stations

1 large industry

1 Small pre-grouping Engine Shed

1 Small Goods Shed (lineside rather than through running as it is for a curved siding)

2 small Signal Boxes
Other small buildings (eg: Platform Shelters / Pagoda, Weighbridge Hut / Coal Merchants and other Huts, Water cranes etc..)

 

For me, the extra track would involve a bit of saving up if I go for this (my birthday is near Christmas), but with the boards packed away again for now there’s time to print off the different plans and templates and work through the choices while I think about scenery for my practice piece.  Whatever I end up with, I’m going to have fun.  Keith.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Keith Addenbrooke
(Corrected parts list)

[Harlequin]

Hi Keith,

Two corrections:

• Loop exit, Top Station = curved left
• Goods yard entry, Lower Station = curved right

I can send you a PDF if that would be useful.

 

I'm planning on tidying up the drawing and posting it in my trackplans Album with a link back to this thread. Hope that's OK.

 

Whatever you do, I'm sure it's going to be fun. Enjoy!

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

23 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Hi Keith,

Two corrections:

• Loop exit, Top Station = curved left
• Goods yard entry, Lower Station = curved right

I can send you a PDF if that would be useful.

 

I'm planning on tidying up the drawing and posting it in my trackplans Album with a link back to this thread. Hope that's OK.

 

Whatever you do, I'm sure it's going to be fun. Enjoy!

 

Thanks Phil, apologies for the errors - I’ve edited and shown the corrections.
 

If you could PM a copy of the .pdf when it’s done that’d be great, thank you - I’d like to print one off anyway (do add your initials of course, it’s your copyright).  More than happy to see it in your track plans Album with or without a link, as you wish.  Wonder if it would be worth showing or mentioning the baseboard joints?  They are really a key part of making the story possible.  Keith.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Keith Addenbrooke
(typo)

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Credits

With this story now complete, it's time to tidy up the (virtual) desk.  In addition to all the encouragement, advice and guidance on this principal thread, the design process has been generously assisted by contributions on a number of related threads too,  which I've gathered here in one place in case of any need for future reference:

 

Prequel

Before this thread began, my initial design process was pieced together with help as follows:

 

Curved Setrack Points - a variation on the question

Layover / Lay-by sidings on single track GWR lines  [Note: the title should be: "Refuge sidings"]

Signalling a single-track GWR passing station

 

Production Design

A helpful and very useful conversation accompanying this thread on placement of Station Buildings, and Non-Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock (NPCCS), especially horse traffic - an important aspect of branch line life:

 

GW Branch Line Station Buildings

 

Origins Story

Behind every story there's another story, (or so they say):

 

That first step from hoping to planning to building

 

and finally...

 

The End Credits Scene

I omitted to post the revision I worked out taking Harlequin's excellent suggestion of using compound end curves to create space and applying it to my alternative version.  The central 45 degree piece at each end is now a 2nd Rad. curve.  This frees up space if small Station Buildings are to be included:

 

 

Parts List - clockwise from Top Left (all points Peco Streamline Code 100 except as stated):

 

Top Station

Loop Entry: Right hand Curved

Loading Dock: Left hand Long

Loop Exit: Left hand Curved

 

Lower Station

Goods only Loop Entry (bottom right): Right hand Long

Right hand sidings: 1 x Hornby Setrack Y point and 1 x Left hand Medium

Left hand sidings: 1 x Left hand Medium and 1 x Right hand Medium

Goods only Loop Exit (bottom left): Left hand Medium

 

Trap points should be modelled at either end of the Lower Station Goods Loop and the Loading Dock Siding.

 

Principal Buildings (see below)

2 x Small Branch Line Station Buildings (wooden construction suggested)

1 x Goods Shed

1 x Engine Shed

1 x Industry (mill or equivalent)

1 x Signal Box (S.C.) for Top Station

1 x Platform Mounted Signal Box for Lower Station (not shown)

1 x Coal Merchants Office (optional coal staithes - not shown)

Plus assorted huts and details.

 

 

Keith.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke
Reinstating photos

[St Enodoc]

8 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Credits

With this story now complete, it's time to tidy up the (virtual) desk.  In addition to all the encouragement, advice and guidance on this principal thread, the design process has been generously assisted by contributions on a number of related threads too,  which I've gathered here in one place in case of any need for future reference:

 

Prequel

Before this thread began, my initial design process was pieced together with help as follows:

 

Curved Setrack Points - a variation on the question

Layover / Lay-by sidings on single track GWR lines  [Note: the title should be: "Refuge sidings"]

Signalling a single-track GWR passing station

 

Production Design

A helpful and very useful conversation accompanying this thread on placement of Station Buildings, and Non-Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock (NPCCS), especially horse traffic - an important aspect of branch line life:

 

GW Branch Line Station Buildings

 

Origins Story

Behind every story there's another story, (or so they say):

 

That first step from hoping to planning to building

 

and finally...

 

The End Credits Scene

I omitted to post the revision I worked out taking Harlequin's excellent suggestion of using compound end curves to create space and applying it to my alternative version.  The central 45 degree piece at each end is now a 2nd Rad. curve.  This frees up space if small Station Buildings are to be included:

 

 

Parts List - clockwise from Top Left (all points Peco Streamline Code 100 except as stated):

 

Top Station

Loop Entry: Right hand Curved

Loading Dock: Left hand Long

Loop Exit: Left hand Curved

 

Lower Station

Goods only Loop Entry (bottom right): Right hand Long

Right hand sidings: 1 x Hornby Setrack Y point and 1 x Left hand Medium

Left hand sidings: 1 x Left hand Medium and 1 x Right hand Medium

Goods only Loop Exit (bottom left): Left hand Medium

 

Trap points should be modelled at either end of the Lower Station Goods Loop and the Loading Dock Siding.

 

Principal Buildings (see below)

2 x Small Branch Line Station Buildings (wooden construction suggested)

1 x Goods Shed

1 x Engine Shed

1 x Industry (mill or equivalent)

1 x Signal Box (S.C.) for Top Station

1 x Platform Mounted Signal Box for Lower Station (not shown)

1 x Coal Merchants Office (optional coal staithes - not shown)

Plus assorted huts and details.

 

 

Keith.

Very nice Keith. I like all of that, except...

 

...that the curves on the left and right don't cross the joints at right angles any more. That shouldn't be a problem but you will need to take extra care when aligning and securing the tracks.

 

Notwithstanding, I look forward to seeing the completed layout here in due course!

[Keith Addenbrooke]

9 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Very nice Keith. I like all of that, except...

 

...that the curves on the left and right don't cross the joints at right angles any more. That shouldn't be a problem but you will need to take extra care when aligning and securing the tracks.

 

Notwithstanding, I look forward to seeing the completed layout here in due course!

Good point - as all four boards meet together at the centre ensuring alignment is key.  Where Harlequin has suggested a tunnel on the right hand side, it’d be a good idea to have a good-sized access hole in the side to check the alignment at the join.  The line of trees across the centre can be used to hide the long join, but care will need to be taken when storing the boards (as this is a portable layout) to avoid any of them warping, and to look after the scenery.

[Harlequin]

If you use alignment dowels ("Pattern maker's dowels") that are properly fixed to the boards it should all come apart and go together with repeatable alignment. And they would help to pull some minor warping straight, actually.

 

Once you have that set up then lay the tracks while it's all fitted together and the alignment of the tracks should automatically follow, even if they cross the joints at an angle.

 

I'm sure this is all old hat.

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

23 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

If you use alignment dowels ("Pattern maker's dowels") that are properly fixed to the boards it should all come apart and go together with repeatable alignment. And they would help to pull some minor warping straight, actually.

 

Once you have that set up then lay the tracks while it's all fitted together and the alignment of the tracks should automatically follow, even if they cross the joints at an angle.

 

I'm sure this is all old hat.

 

Always worth sharing, especially valuable for a portable / starter layout scheme like this one - thank you.  

The individual boards for this layout are about as large as they can be for moving around at home (4’ x 2’) and so will need to be stored separately (not hinged or fastened together - they’d become too heavy).

[The Stationmaster]

One minor point - the signal box at the 'upper' station should be immediately adjacent to the level crossing.   And not set back from either railway and level crossing.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

One minor point - the signal box at the 'upper' station should be immediately adjacent to the level crossing.   And not set back from either railway and level crossing.

Good point - I forgot to move it when I shifted the tracks down a bit (you did flag this up earlier in the process so I should have remembered, sorry).

[Keith Addenbrooke]

On 09/07/2020 at 14:27, The Stationmaster said:

One minor point - the signal box at the 'upper' station should be immediately adjacent to the level crossing.   And not set back from either railway and level crossing.

 

I have now moved it and uploaded a revised drawing abov, repeated here for convenience.  Thanks, Keith.

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke
Reinstating photos

[Keith Addenbrooke]

An update...

 

I was more than happy with the outcome of this planning process, and with the choices I had for a compact, portable GW Branch Line Layout I could set up on quiet days in our shared home office.

 

However, I had not anticipated how increased home working will continue: there will now be far fewer days when I can use the room to set up or work on the layout, and there is a lot more ‘stuff’ in the office restricting the aisle space this project relies on.  Added to this, the room gets rearranged each week as a video recording studio, so I’m afraid the layout is no longer a realistic proposition.

 

I’m keeping these ideas on file, but for now it means I’m back at the drawing board.  There is the possibility of a layout in our cellar.  As this could involve significant changes to the criteria I hope it’s OK to develop this in a different thread, keeping the original ideas intact here.  Keith.