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Exclusive OO Gauge Class 89 produced by Accurascale


Oliver Rails
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On 26/08/2020 at 12:58, Oliver Rails said:

we are continuing to discuss the project's finer detail with Accurascale.

I think that’s the most promising bit, they are discussing details not the whole thing :) 

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13 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

Lordy, just let it go. The two of you will never agree and this is getting boring.

 

As for Sir TophamHatt’s view that this is a no-brainer, I would have tended to agree with him, however, given there has been no indication that the project is a go after 5 months, perhaps there is not the interest that was expected. 
 

Roy

Now we need a “dog with a bone” emoji as well :lol:

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On 24/10/2020 at 21:29, Sir TophamHatt said:

That's all I am saying:  That I think EOI aren't a reliable source to make £100,000 business decisions and that I think it will be profitable / worth doing / successful for Rails.

In many industries sales teams work on a 30% success rate... 
 

i’d imagine an EOI is greater in model railways due to lack of a competing alternative.
 

You can choose where to buy your xyz from, but when it comes to oo gauge class 89.. youve only one choice.

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For those mincing words over a pre-order vs an EOI.. there is a very big difference...
 

A pre-order you are entering a contractual commitment to enter into a legal agreement to make a trade. Backing out, in theory, could lead to damage claims, though in practice for a rtr model doesn't offer much hope of enforcement for a single buyer, though for a seller stands a greater chance, though how they’d collect on it from hundreds of Non-joint smaller buyers would be interesting life times work, especially when most sites put t&cs to limit the contract to only be in force at the time of completion of sale, rather than time of order.

 

An EOI is just an indicator of interest, no such contract exists.

 

so if the 89 doesnt go ahead, good bye and good luck.

 

if the YOB doesnt go ahead, if those who pre-ordered and could demonstrate financial loss directly attributed to that decision, they could claim. The lack of consideration (ie a deposit) would make it much harder admittedly, and exactly what loss you would incurr I cant imagine, but i’m sure someone somewhere could find an angle.
Before going to MCOL, for loss of your emotional comfort crane, Don't forget the YOB hasn't Been canceled, there was no date attached to delivery..it could sit there indefinitely, just like the OO gauge king.

 

To layman yes an unenforceable EOI and a potentially unenforceable pre-order look the same.


inversely however...

 

Pre-orders of HAAs are one I see as potential to get interesting..

 

in the real world, aviation is a good example... EOIs in new aircraft designs are a good way of determining viability, but, like the 787 and A380, could flutter away in ill winds. But a contract, even without payment is enforceable, to at the very least lead to a commercial renegotiation of diverting that spend into another project (ie different model plane etc).

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

in the real world

 

And then I think there is something in between an EOI and and order too, a declaration of intent. Not necessarily in planes but I am sure we have had such things at work to greasen our wheels when the order is stuck in buraucracy and the required lead time is short.

 

Anyway.... glad we don't have those in model railways!

 

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Pre-orders of HAAs are one I see as potential to get interesting..

 

Definitely!

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On 27/10/2020 at 16:21, adb968008 said:

A pre-order you are entering a contractual commitment to enter into a legal agreement to make a trade. Backing out, in theory, could lead to damage claims...

 

Apologies in advance if I read any of the above incorrectly [it's late in the evening]... but I'm not so sure about this if pre-ordering what are deemed to become 'standard range' items?  At the end of the day any order - pre-order or otherwise - is categorized as distance selling, whereby as such any customer has the right to pre-order/order, pay for, receive the goods and still has the right to return for a full refund if they are either dissatisfied or simply have a whimsical change of heart.  I cannot really fathom how cancelling prior to despatch could justify a potential claim on the part of any retailer? 

 

On the other hand, if an item is manufactured specifically to order, or individually personalised to a customer's specification then the rules can potentially become slightly blurred.  Even so, if the finished product does not match up to the customer's expectation - whether that be specification-wise or quality of manufacture - again the customer reserves the right to dispute/cancel.  This is why it's important to obtain clear and concise clarification of specification in such instances, so as the precise nature of customer expectation could be dissected more readily if such a dispute were to arise. 

 

As you rightly say though, simply because something is enforceable does not necessarily mean that it is anyone's interests to actually enforce.  If model manufacturers made it their business to potentially sue all of their cancelled pre-order customers, then all well and good, but good luck with the next project as you successfully frighten everyone away...  :huh:

 

The bottom line to all of us I guess, read the terms and conditions of sale before ordering.

 

Best

Al

Edited by YesTor
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Bl**dy hell, are we talking about a Class 89 or the finer points of contractual or non contractual interest in a model?

For goodness sake children stop acting like spoiled brats and get back to the topic. Rails could quash all this arguing by saying yes or no.

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7 minutes ago, 7013 said:

Bl**dy hell, are we talking about a Class 89 or the finer points of contractual or non contractual interest in a model?

For goodness sake children stop acting like spoiled brats and get back to the topic. Rails could quash all this arguing by saying yes or no.

Exactly Rails could but haven’t so what are we waiting for? Has there been a big push in the magazines or anything to push it over the line assuming it needs pushing? Are there ongoing negotiations between rails and accurascale which are taking longer than anticipated or is there another factor we are not privy to? But please put us out of our misery one way or the other!

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Well that was an interesting read. What started off as a discussion about a much-requested model (I make no commercial prediction from that) has turned into a thread discussing the reliability of various market research schemes.

 

Quite frankly, if I were involved in this project and read this thread I'd likely cancel it. In fact, based on the comments from one or two, I think I'd probably sell up the whole business and open a book shop instead.

 

For the record, I don't think EOI is a particularly good means of indicating likely sales. But for all we know this might be a prelude to advanced orders on the basis of '...we reserve the right to cancel if there are not enough orders...'

 

Personally, the only relevant comment I can make is to observe how much (second hand) Heljan Lions are selling for. This observation that it's a diesel, 89 (Avocet?) is electric is irrelevant. Very few people would model a scenario where Lion would have legitimately operated (in fact, this is true of most limited editions, including Rapido's APT). Yet it sold.

 

So please, people, stop all the squabbling- nothing is more likely to put the brakes on this than forums full of squabbling.

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21 minutes ago, 7013 said:

Bl**dy hell, are we talking about a Class 89 or the finer points of contractual or non contractual interest in a model?

For goodness sake children stop acting like spoiled brats and get back to the topic. Rails could quash all this arguing by saying yes or no.

Apologies for more or less duplicating your post. I'm afraid I gave up reading this increasingly odd thread before I got to your post.

 

Those of us who were there to see 89 running out for the first time and have been in the cab on the ECML (I was there by family connection, I did not work for the railway/ contractors) it was a beautiful sight. It was popular with drivers/ BR staff and enthusiasts- a really justifiable successor to the HST. So I for one hope Rails does turn this into a 'goer' and the unhelpful comments herein do not dissuade them.

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10 minutes ago, Derekstuart said:

Well that was an interesting read. What started off as a discussion about a much-requested model (I make no commercial prediction from that) has turned into a thread discussing the reliability of various market research schemes.

 

Quite frankly, if I were involved in this project and read this thread I'd likely cancel it. In fact, based on the comments from one or two, I think I'd probably sell up the whole business and open a book shop instead.

 

For the record, I don't think EOI is a particularly good means of indicating likely sales. But for all we know this might be a prelude to advanced orders on the basis of '...we reserve the right to cancel if there are not enough orders...'

 

Personally, the only relevant comment I can make is to observe how much (second hand) Heljan Lions are selling for. This observation that it's a diesel, 89 (Avocet?) is electric is irrelevant. Very few people would model a scenario where Lion would have legitimately operated (in fact, this is true of most limited editions, including Rapido's APT). Yet it sold.

 

So please, people, stop all the squabbling- nothing is more likely to put the brakes on this than forums full of squabbling.

and then there's Kernows Bulleid Diesel which is another slightly oddball, I guess there were 3 though !, and they seem to have sold well, so obviously room for these one or 3 offs ! Ithink people like to have something slightly different to appear every now and then

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There's an awful lot coming out in the next few years though. Things of course are not great in the country so we are likely facing unemployment/ disposable income down . On the other hand interest in hobbies is up and I suspect people will not be taking as many exotic holidays at moment so may spend on hobbies instead . Who knows ! 

 

I think with EoI its always good to set timeline and report back whether project is going ahead or not . The best projects are , of course, where the target is reached very quickly. The fact that we have not heard in 5 months is perhaps ominous . Things have also changed at Rails , of course , with them stopping being a Hornby stockist, which must impact on cash flow I would have thought . On the other hand , did I see somewhere that they are now selling Warhammer stuff . So all these things must be carefully considered when doing business plans , there could be other factors than whether the 89 reached its target EoI

Edited by Legend
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26 minutes ago, Derekstuart said:

 

 

Those of us who were there to see 89 running out for the first time and have been in the cab on the ECML (I was there by family connection, I did not work for the railway/ contractors) it was a beautiful sight. It was popular with drivers/ BR staff and enthusiasts- a really justifiable successor to the HST. So I for one hope Rails does turn this into a 'goer' and the unhelpful comments herein do not dissuade them.

Funnily enough I dropped the news of this “intended” model onto the Kings + drivers Facebook pages (family connections also) and there was a great reaction, so it’s not only modellers who may well buy one of these, the 89 was indeed a very popular loco in service.

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12 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Funnily enough I dropped the news of this “intended” model onto the Kings + drivers Facebook pages (family connections also) and there was a great reaction, so it’s not only modellers who may well buy one of these, the 89 was indeed a very popular loco in service.

Very true. It's easy to judge the hobby based on one thread, but look at the total amount of RMW users for starters. Then how many in the hobby who don't use RMW and then, as you rightly point out, plenty of non-modellers who may also be interested.

 

My Dad worked with someone who didn't model trains, yet across his living room at home had a full ECML spec. HST, a Deltic+ MK2s, A4+ train. He was a ECML driver. Didn't model but still had a collection of the stuff he'd driven.

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7 hours ago, Derekstuart said:

 

So please, people, stop all the squabbling- nothing is more likely to put the brakes on this than forums full of squabbling

 

The thing most likely to put a stop to it is people not filling in the EOI IMO.

 

7 hours ago, Derekstuart said:

Very true. It's easy to judge the hobby based on one thread, but look at the total amount of RMW users for starters. Then how many in the hobby who don't use RMW and then, as you rightly point out, plenty of non-modellers who may also be interested.

 

Again exactly the point of the EOI, so that people who make noises on forums are not taken too seriously either way.

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8 hours ago, Derekstuart said:

observe how much (second hand) Heljan Lions are selling for

 

Oddly enough I mentioned second hand prices of an item on a thread (where somebody was asking for another run) and the manufacturer of the item replied with the point that you only need 2 people to want it on eBay.

 

OTOH I do think these things do well on eBay because in general there are plenty of people wanting them but I felt given I had used that example in the presence of a manufacturer and that was the response that it's relevant here to an extent.

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I’ve been looking at the pictures of 89001 on wnxx.com and I must admit that the loco is stunning and if it passes it’s high voltage testing, it will go back to Barrow Hill for fitting GSM-R and OTMR; and they hope it will be back on the mainline at the end of the summer, 2021.

 

With this progress, I’m expecting a huge surge of interest especially when the first public train is advertised.  I just hope that Rails take the plunge and go for it.

Edited by jools1959
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3 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

The thing most likely to put a stop to it is people not filling in the EOI IMO.

 

 

Again exactly the point of the EOI, so that people who make noises on forums are not taken too seriously either way.

 

I'm not privy to the inner workings of Rails, so I will have to go with your view. Personally I doubt if they'll make a decision based on EOI. In business, to use the irritating cliche, raising a flag to see who salutes is the sign of a business that won't make it and that surely cannot apply to the very successful Rails.

 

I'm not sure I understand your second point. The people giving EOI on here are surely the same ones who are making comments on here.

 

3 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

Oddly enough I mentioned second hand prices of an item on a thread (where somebody was asking for another run) and the manufacturer of the item replied with the point that you only need 2 people to want it on eBay.

 

OTOH I do think these things do well on eBay because in general there are plenty of people wanting them but I felt given I had used that example in the presence of a manufacturer and that was the response that it's relevant here to an extent.

 

That's very true. However if you regularly find two people wanting it and they are quickly sold then it would suggest a demand exists- but of course it's not my money I'd be spending to find out. A tough one that and I'd agree it's a very good response. But my point was really that Heljan sold out of all Kestrel, Lion, Falcon and DP2. I believe Bachmann's Deltic prototype has sold out in all stockists too.

Certainly if 89 returns to the rails- as seems likely- then a marketing deal between Rails/ Accurascale and the 89 operators could be achieved... I would guess on-board sales of model 89s would be a good money maker. Of course, how the £split would work to make it worthwhile all three parties is a different matter.

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2 minutes ago, Derekstuart said:

I'm not sure I understand your second point. The people giving EOI on here are surely the same ones who are making comments on here.

 

The EOI is not exclusive to people on RMWeb. I first heard about it via email I think, and it was also on Facebook.

 

3 minutes ago, Derekstuart said:

Personally I doubt if they'll make a decision based on EOI.

 

So why are they doing it? To create hype?

 

4 minutes ago, Derekstuart said:

But my point was really that Heljan sold out of all Kestrel, Lion, Falcon and DP2. I believe Bachmann's Deltic prototype has sold out in all stockists too.

 

Yes and I think I actually quoted those exact models (other than the Deltic) a few days ago as a suggestion that if they worked then so should this, as a counter argument to my own point that I do think the EOI process may be beneficial.

 

The Bachmann Deltic Prototype is still available at Locomotion models but those are are least the second run as the first ones didn't have the Locomotion branded boxes.

 

I'd be interested in knowing how much time the 89 has spent in operation compared to these, I aren't up on my 60s one off locos.

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1 minute ago, TomScrut said:

 

The EOI is not exclusive to people on RMWeb. I first heard about it via email I think, and it was also on Facebook.

 

 

So why are they doing it? To create hype?

 

 

Yes and I think I actually quoted those exact models (other than the Deltic) a few days ago as a suggestion that if they worked then so should this, as a counter argument to my own point that I do think the EOI process may be beneficial.

 

The Bachmann Deltic Prototype is still available at Locomotion models but those are are least the second run as the first ones didn't have the Locomotion branded boxes.

 

I'd be interested in knowing how much time the 89 has spent in operation compared to these, I aren't up on my 60s one off locos.

I suspect- though without evidence- that RMW is the place that generates the most 'leads.' I could be wrong.

 

I have no idea why they are doing it. You'd need to ask them.

 

Thanks for the info re: Deltic. I was not aware of that, having missed out on the original run. I remember seeing it the first time not long after it ended up in the Science museum. An impressive sight.

The 89 only had a history of around 15 years, but it was always a 'celebrity' loco, even when new. I saw it at Bounds Green around the time of its commissioning (though I seem to recall it was quite a while between leaving the factory and actually entering service, even on test trains). By comparison, the Deltic protoype didn't even manage 5 years.

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2 hours ago, Derekstuart said:

Jools- Surely it is already fitted with GSM, or was that removed when it was made redundant previously?

GSM-R was not a requirement last time it was on the mainline. 

Edit: just looked at the dates. 89001 was removed from traffic on 2004, GSM-R on the ECML was introduced in 2013. 
 

89001 will also need OTMR that was not needed in 2004. 

 

Roy

Edited by Roy Langridge
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2 hours ago, Derekstuart said:

That's very true. However if you regularly find two people wanting it and they are quickly sold then it would suggest a demand exists- but of course it's not my money I'd be spending to find out.

 

The problem for the manufacturer is that they can't just produce 10, 50, or 100 - the factory is going to want a minimum order likely in the thousands.

 

Now does an online auction site price tell you there is demand for say 2,000 units?

 

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