Stewart Reidpath and Craigshire

[dunwurken]

P D Hancock was a Stewart Reidpath fan and a number of Stewart Reidpath products found their way onto Craigshire during the 1950's in particular.  Even when in the 1960's when Romford and Pittman motors became available he retained a fondness for the by then obsolete Stewart-Reidpath spur-gear mechanisms which, though noisy, would grind their way through everything.  Shortly before his death Mr Reidpath completed a North British Railway 'Atlantic' for PD and amongst the other standard gauge North British, North Eastern Railway and industrial locomotives I can additionally account for a 'Gnat', two 0-6-0 tank bodies and four 0-6-0 mechanisms.

 

I am taking advantage of the time available to me during the coronovirus lockdown to survey each of the 11 standard gauge locomotives in the Edinburgh & Lothians MRC's P D Hancock Collection and where possible repair and restore them to operation but without in any way compromising PD's handiwork.  In other words cleaning, oiling and repairs such as quartering, tweeking pick ups, soldering broken wires will be undertaken but generally leaving as is.   

 

I have in the course of the past few days been examining  NBR 'G' class 0-4-0ST No.146 which is a conversion from an SR Gnat.   This loco whilst a wee bit bashed around the body has a chassis that seems as good as when it was new around 65 years ago.  Two queries regarding the 'Gnat'.  I can recall seeing an advert for the 'Gnat' locomotives when they were new in a 1950's but can I find it again, no I can't.   Can anyone provide me a scan of the advert or with a publication date?  Secondly the chassis has   E  A  stamped on the side.   What is the significance of these letters?

 

Malcolm

 

 NBR No.146 by Malcolm MacLeod, on Flickr

 

Chassis for NBR No.146 by Malcolm MacLeod, on Flickr

Edited May 28, 2020 by dunwurken

[Il Grifone]

Is this any help?

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/catalogo-HAMBLINGS-1955-Exclusively-OO-scale-E-bb/233526461065?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225076%26meid%3D2d09d97e3d0b414db70314a6b3aad283%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D3%26mehot%3Dpf%26sd%3D274261708550%26itm%3D233526461065%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWebWithBBEV2aDemotion&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

 

I always wanted a 'Gnat', but it's still on my wanted list....

The 95/- + P.T. price put me off back then!  (It would bought two Dublo N2s).

Edited May 20, 2020 by Il Grifone

[dunwurken]

Thank you, that is extremely helpful.   I had forgotten about that chap in Italy selling old catalogues even though I have purchased from him in the past.  Senility!!

 

In addition to servicing and repairing the models I am attempting, where possible, to provide some historical background for each model.  Sometimes it is straightforward, eg GEM kit, others require a bit more research!  

 

Would cost you a bit more than 95/- + PT now but they do come up now and again on ebay and other auctions.

 

Malcolm

[5050]

I've got this from April '54 MRN but I'm sure I've seen one earlier but not scanned it.

 

 

I think the body was Hamblings and the chassis was SR.  I've always wanted one too and had a chance a year or so back when Contikits had one complete and working - but I vacillated to much and when I next asked it had gone!

 

Regarding the NB Atlantic, I remember reading the RM articles after PDH had to rebuild the layout due to decorating by the household authorities and he had introduced more standard gauge.  The way it read to me was that he had constructed the loco himself with a split chassis using knitting needles for insulation bushes.  There was a lot of info about it in the article, possibly more than if he had simply bought it complete.

Edited May 20, 2020 by 5050

[dunwurken]

As to who built the Atlantic 'Hazeldean' I can do no more than point you in the direction of pages 84/5 of Narrow Gauge Adventure wherein "As already mentioned, my own Atlantic is a model of No.787 "Hazeldean" , and this was built for me by Mr A. S. Reidpath of Stewart-Reidpath Ltd.........It must have been among the last few models built by Mr Reidpath, for I was saddened to read of his death a few short months after receiving the model." 

 

Now PD is known to have said one thing in the Modeller and another in NGA so you will not be surprised there is a question mark regarding the above statement.  The model first appears in the December 1961 Railway Modeller but if I have traced the correct Archibald Stewart Reidpath it would appear he did not die until 1969 .   Does anyone have a definitive date for Mr Reidpath's death?   

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/21062621/person/19581499749/facts

 

Malcolm

[Il Grifone]

9 hours ago, dunwurken said:

Thank you, that is extremely helpful.   I had forgotten about that chap in Italy selling old catalogues even though I have purchased from him in the past.  Senility!!

 

In addition to servicing and repairing the models I am attempting, where possible, to provide some historical background for each model.  Sometimes it is straightforward, eg GEM kit, others require a bit more research!  

 

Would cost you a bit more than 95/- + PT now but they do come up now and again on ebay and other auctions.

 

Malcolm

 

In a coronavirus stupor* this morning, I failed to notice it was from Italy. i assume the sellers eBay identity refers to this little beauty:

http://www.museoferroviariopiemontese.it/locomotiva-a-vapore-per-servizio-misto-625-164/

 

* Not that I have it - just blanket suffocating TV coverage....

 

Somewhere I have seen the Gnats were available in a variety of liveries. I can't remember where though.

[dunwurken]

David

Yes Gnat was available in a variety of liveries, see attached scan of a page from Model Railway Enthusiast.

Malcolm

 

Gnat Hamblings Liveries by Malcolm MacLeod, on Flickr

 

[D51]

The Gnat, as well as being sold by Hamblings with an Essar mechanism, was also sold by W&H with a Romford Phantom mechanism.  The two products were not quite the same as the Romford had a longer wheelbase mechanism than the Essar.

W&H sold the black Gnat at £6/8/4d. and the coloured models at £7.  They had the Guinness (blue/gold), Ind Coope (green) and ICI (red oxide) but not the Cadburys.  Because of the longer wheelbase the coupling and connecting rods were longer.

 

W&H also sold the Essar 4F and diesel shunter (and the Gaiety pannier) with Romford mechanisms, but not the Essar tank locos type R181 (straight boiler) and R181T (taper boiler).  Incidentally the tender for the 4F but not the loco was available immediately after the war as R183 (chassis) and R184 (body).

 

Frank

[Barclay]

Dunwurken, PD is an absolute hero to me so I hope you'll keep us posted regarding the other loco's too?

 

Great work.

[dunwurken]

On 24/05/2020 at 22:00, D51 said:

The Gnat, as well as being sold by Hamblings with an Essar mechanism, was also sold by W&H with a Romford Phantom mechanism.  The two products were not quite the same as the Romford had a longer wheelbase mechanism than the Essar.

W&H sold the black Gnat at £6/8/4d. and the coloured models at £7.  They had the Guinness (blue/gold), Ind Coope (green) and ICI (red oxide) but not the Cadburys.  Because of the longer wheelbase the coupling and connecting rods were longer.

 

W&H also sold the Essar 4F and diesel shunter (and the Gaiety pannier) with Romford mechanisms, but not the Essar tank locos type R181 (straight boiler) and R181T (taper boiler).  Incidentally the tender for the 4F but not the loco was available immediately after the war as R183 (chassis) and R184 (body).

 

Frank

Frank

 

I was not aware of the W&H / Romford alternative however as will be clear from my earlier postings the Craigshire 'Gnat' is 100% Essar and Hamblings.    Which brings me back to the letters  E A  stamped on the mechanism.  What do they stand for?   Do they tell us which version of the mechanism it is or is the mechanics initials?  I note that all the 0-6-0 mechanisms in the collection have a different number stamped on them.  Are these numbers similar to works numbers allocated to prototype locomotives by their builders?  Anyone know the answer?

 

To be clear did the W&H  Essar 4F and diesel shunter have the same chassis as the Hamblings ones?  In other words was it just the mechanism that was different?

 

Malcolm

[D51]

The W&H versions of the 4F, Diesel shunter and Gnat all had Romford chassis and motors.  The Essar motor was integral with the chassis.  Romford was always more expensive than Essar. 

 

In about 1951 a Romford 0-6-0 2-rail mechanism was £5/10s. compared to an Essar at £3/12/5d.  More expensive still was an R M Evans mechanism at £7/0/6d. fitted with a Zenith or Evans motor, almost double the price of the Essar.

 

In the later 1950s GEM also sold the Essar 0-6-0 body castings with their own chassis incorporating the X3 or X5 motor which had been made by Zenith but was not the quality of the Zenith-trademarked motor.  The X3 was fitted to the first Tri-ang locomotives and evolved into the X04.

 

Frank

Edited May 26, 2020 by D51

[dunwurken]

Frank

Thank you for reminding me that the Essar motor was integral with the chassis, something I managed to completely forget when writing my e-mail!

Others may be interested to know that Essar mechanisms were available in 2 or 3 rail, 4, 6, 8 and 10 coupled and with a choice of wheel size and wheelbase.

Stewart Reidpath Essar Catalogue by Malcolm MacLeod, on Flickr

There are four six coupled mechanisms in the PDH Collection, all different in length, wheelsize and spacing and one was adapted by PD to power an NER Fletcher outside framed 0-6-0 No.529.  NBR 828 sits on mechanism No.3719, NER 529 utilises mechanism 05163, NBR 817 was being altered to run on a Mainline 0-6-0 chassis but is believed to have previously run on mechanism No.3150 and spare is mechanism No.05135.  Thinking further re the numbering of the mechanisms I cannot help wondering if these are indeed works/order numbers so that S-R could keep track of orders in case their were queries, complaints or re-orders. (Found another mechanism -10 June- without chassis and wheels which has no number but is lettered H H E.)

Below is the chassis altered by PD to outside frame for the NER Fletcher: 

Extended axles for o-s framed No529 by Malcolm MacLeod, on Flickr

I previously mentioned that two standard round top firebox 0-6-0 tank bodies found there way onto Craigshire.  One was shortened at the front end and mounted on a Mantua 0-4-0 chassis. 

Peter Allans by Malcolm MacLeod, on Flickr

The current whereabouts of this model of Peter Allans No.1 are unknown however the other body was modified to look like a NBR Class D [LNER J83] 0-6-0T No.828 and this is in the PDH Collection:

NBR No828 crop by Malcolm MacLeod, on Flickr 

As far as I can see there is no record of other Essar/S-R mechanisms being used in any of the other Craigshire locos however PD was well known for buying and selling through the small ads so who knows, indeed some the Essars in the collection were probably purchased second hand!

Malcolm

Edited June 10, 2020 by dunwurken

[D51]

The Essar mechanism I have is stamped 4142 in the position you showed for "AE".

 

Frank

[5050]

Hamblings Diesel Shunter body as featured in MRN Oct '55.  Is it the same as SR etc.?

 

[dunwurken]

Given what has been said on other threads regarding the close connection between S-R and Hamblings [sharing directors and Arthur Hambling in effect in control of the day to day running of S-R by 1949] I think it would be fair to assume one and the same.  Indeed I seem to recall that being said on another thread [probably by that ex Hamblings employee 'Bertiedog'] but cannot trace it. 

 

'Bertidog' elsewhere stated the Essar models were of a generic 0-6-0T [round top and Belpaire boilers], a MR/LMS 4F 0-6-0, a 0-6-0 diesel shunter (class 08) and the 'Gnat'.  S-R also made the moulds and did the castings for a Bulleid WC/BoB/MN for Hamblings and apparently the same applied to the 08 Diesel (sold as LMS/ GWR as well). Gnats were not sold direct from S-R, only Hamblings. 

 

Malcolm

 

 

[5050]

On 20/05/2020 at 20:30, dunwurken said:

As to who built the Atlantic 'Hazeldean' I can do no more than point you in the direction of pages 84/5 of Narrow Gauge Adventure wherein "As already mentioned, my own Atlantic is a model of No.787 "Hazeldean" , and this was built for me by Mr A. S. Reidpath of Stewart-Reidpath Ltd.........It must have been among the last few models built by Mr Reidpath, for I was saddened to read of his death a few short months after receiving the model." 

 

Now PD is known to have said one thing in the Modeller and another in NGA so you will not be surprised there is a question mark regarding the above statement.  The model first appears in the December 1961 Railway Modeller but if I have traced the correct Archibald Stewart Reidpath it would appear he did not die until 1969 .   Does anyone have a definitive date for Mr Reidpath's death?   

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/21062621/person/19581499749/facts

 

Malcolm

I have an apology to make  When I first read your post it turns out I was thinking of 'Kettledrummel' which is also an NBR 4-4-0.  PDH categorically states in 2 places in NG Adventure (which I re-read this morning to check both this and his mention of Graham Farish figures) that he built 'Kettledrummel'* but that SR built 'Hazeldean'.  I had completely forgotten that he had two 4-4-0's and 'Hazeldean' was completely off the radar!  It seems that, from reading NGAd, he had a lot more standard gauge locos than I had remembered or even been aware of at all.  Any idea where they all went?  The NER 0-8-0 was very nice and being on a Hornby Dublo chassis should have been a good runner.

 

*Edit - and he used Tufnol bushes not knitting needles for insulating bushes. 

 

Errr, who are we talking about again.......................................................

Edited June 7, 2020 by 5050

[dunwurken]

Hi

There were in fact three NBR 4-4-0s.   There is the 'Scott' class, 'Kettledrummle', as you have already mentioned and two 'Glens', 'Glen Finnan', a conversion from a Tri-ang L1 and 'Glen Roy', a GEM kit.

 

The exact number of standard gauge locos will never be known, all we can do is add up what is mentioned in NGA, the numerous articles and the odd snippet of information.   PD bought and sold as the mood took him e.g. 'Glen Roy' and the NBR 'Yorkie' were purchases and there was a 'cull' between the second and third versions of the layout.    There are 15 Craigshire locos, mostly the ones seen in the published photographs, whose whereabouts are known and there were 37 locos + 1 DMU that I can account for that either did run on Craigshire or PD threatened to build and run on Craigshire -see p90 NGA. 

 

Research is ongoing!!!!

 

Malcolm

[dunwurken]

Found lurking amongst some motors is another Essar mechanism, no chassis or wheels, with no number but the letters H H E.

All the Essar mechanisms in the PDH Collection work!  Not bad given their age etc.

Malcolm

[Reidmere]

I am a keen Stewart Reidpath Collector. I am researching the history of the company and collecting examples of the company's products. With regard to the letters or numbers on the motor/chassis, these are the company's production reference numbers, mostly for its post-war chassis, but some pre war chassis are referenced also. I have a number of chassis that came with boxes and instructions which usually gave the production reference and  included information such as model shop supplied, price and final customer. Also included was the chassis tester's initials, batch number, date dispatched to model shop, and if the dealer filled in his box, the date dispatched to the end customer. From the details I have collected, I can date the chassis that you have in your possession, viz: -

0-4-0 Chassis 'AE' NBR 146 - 1947

Motor without chassis or wheels 'HHE' - 1948

0-6-0 Chassis '3150' NBR 817 - 1951

0-6-0 Chassis '3719' NBR 828 November 1952

Spare Chassis '5135' - 1956

0-6-0 Chassis '5163' NBR 529 - 1956

 

I understand that you have some further Stewart Reidpath powered locos - if you can post the details, I can date these also for you. Does the Hazeldene Atlantic have a Reidpath chassis?

 

Finally, do you know if the Craigshire and Mertonford Railway was originally outside third rail, or 2-rail from the start?

 

Kind Regards

John

[F-UnitMad]

From the earliest photos in 'Narrow Gauge Adventure', it is clear that the C&M was 2-rail from the start - circa 1949.

[dunwurken]

Reidmere

Thank you for the information on the SR/Essar chassis.   I have retired from being the custodian of the ELMRC Collection but I still have access to the Collection and I will update the records accordingly.

 

With regard to the NBR Atlantic this model is in private hands and I do not have access to it and have not seen the mechanism.  Presumably it was an Essar 0-4-0 chassis as, according to the printed word it was built to order for PDH by Mr Stewart Reidpath himself supposedly just before he died.  See earlier post dated 20 May 2020.

 

I can confirm Craigshire was always 2 rail.

 

Malcolm

Edited April 17, 2022 by dunwurken
Added note 're track

[5050]

On 16/04/2022 at 12:09, Reidmere said:

I am a keen Stewart Reidpath Collector.

You may not be to impressed with this then......................

 

 

Sorry...............................................

[CKPR]

That's got me thinking of the 0-6-0T engines of the Furness Rly. from 1910.

[5050]

On 03/05/2022 at 22:58, CKPR said:

That's got me thinking of the 0-6-0T engines of the Furness Rly. from 1910.

It's supposedly based on a LSWR G6 loco.  The bits I've used all came from my odds and sods collection.  No credit card was harmed during the construction of this loco.

 

Apart from the initial purchase of the body from a 'pre-owned junk box' at a show some years ago and that was a minimal cash payment.

 

Now, lets get back to Craig🙂

Edited May 10, 2022 by 5050

[CKPR]

That explains the similarity as  William Pettigrew, the FR CME who designed the FR 0-6-0Ts, had previously worked under Adams at the LSWR before moving  to Barrow (a drawing of the FR engines in the RM in the 1960s included a sketch of the G6 for comparison).