GWR Toad Diagrams

[LNERJP]

I'm interested in building a model of the Titfield thunderbolt in 7mm, and I believe the brake van was a Dia AA20, Connoisseur models make a kit for a Dia AA19. As GWR is not normally my area of interest could somebody please advise me on the differences (if any) between the two diagrams, is it a feasible conversion?

 

Thanks

JP

[Miss Prism]

AA19 and AA20 are externally identical.

 

[LNERJP]

Brilliant thanks

 

JP

[Hal Nail]

I'm also doing an AA19 as an AA20 (Parkside in 7mm) although from its number its one of the later built ones and I think I need to drop the footboard to the lower AA21 style position.

 

In respect of the buffers, I'm a bit confused by these. I've seen RCH quoted but there are a couple of types that seem common. I appreciate restored vans can be altered and additionally some have had an extensions welded on later but there are two types that are quite common.

 

One is as show below (on an AA23), on an early GWR photo I've seen and in the "buffer" section of the GWR site:

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/nobrakes.html

 

I don't know what these are?

 

The other is the standard RCH type buffers supplied by, Dapol, Slaters and Parkside in 7mm for mineral wagons, standard fitted vans etc which also appear quite often in brake van photos.

 

Can someone advise exactly what type I am looking for an AA20 unfitted in late 50s please?!

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Edit - I've tried to link this photo and not embed but its not playing ball

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Hal Nail

[Miss Prism]

1'6" RCH for an unfitted AA20

 

[57xx]

On 02/01/2022 at 11:36, Hal Nail said:

One is as show below (on an AA23), on an early GWR photo I've seen and in the "buffer" section of the GWR site:

 

I don't know what these are?

 

 

They look to be standard GWR 1' 8 1/2” two rib buffers with 13" head, as applied to vacuum fitted stock.

Edited January 6, 2022 by 57xx

[Miss Prism]

I think the ones in nobrakes page pic are 1' 8 1/2" RCH, as per the caption, with the long ribs and rectangular base. The GWR equivalents had shorter ribs and rounded-end bases. I cannot find a drawing of either offhand. I need to improve my picture caption, and find an additional unfitted 1'6" RCH pic.

 

[Hal Nail]

Thanks all for the help. I quite liked the longer ones but it's going to be standard Slaters for mine!

[Hal Nail]

Another plea for help please.

 

I've got a pretty decent collection of books covering BR (W) steam and certainly spend longer than is healthy looking up locos on various online picture libraries but I can't recall seeing a huge number of decent photos of Toads for my area.

 

If anyone is aware of any particularly good shots of St Blazey, Bodmin or Par's AA15/20/23 vans from c1950 onwards I'd be grateful for a pointer. I know running numbers from the GWR org link and have found a few examples of preserved vans from the same lots but it would still be good to confirm details and livery variations from actual photos if I can!

 

Thanks.

[57xx]

On 03/01/2022 at 20:31, Hal Nail said:

Thanks all for the help. I quite liked the longer ones but it's going to be standard Slaters for mine!

 

The longer ones are just on the fitted stock, Shorter 1'6" for unfitted stock as Miss P has pointed out.

 

@Miss Prism Plate 654 in the big Atkins et al shows an AA20 with the short RCH buffers. Not how you would stand on using that though.

 

The pic on gwr.org captioned "AA21 17410 with 1'8&frac1/2;" RCH buffers" look like GWR short rib buffers, not RCH. There is no upper and lower rib as per RCH ones. The AA23 a bit further down is definitely RCH.

Edited January 5, 2022 by 57xx

[Miss Prism]

37 minutes ago, 57xx said:

@Miss Prism Plate 654 in the big Atkins et al shows an AA20 with the short RCH buffers.

 

Agreed.

 

37 minutes ago, 57xx said:

The pic on gwr.org captioned "AA21 17410 with 1'8&frac1/2;" RCH buffers" look like GWR short rib buffers, not RCH. There is no upper and lower rib as per RCH ones.

 

I see what you mean about the ribs, but I felt they were RCH because of the shape of the base (rectangular, with small radius corners) whereas GWR ones have larger radius corners. I need to spend some time looking at more pics to see whether I can spot any more short-rib 1'81/2". The Bible is very bad on buffer info.

 

[Hal Nail]

20 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Agreed.

 

 

I see what you mean about the ribs, but I felt they were RCH because of the shape of the base (rectangular, with small radius corners) whereas GWR ones have larger radius corners. I need to spend some time looking at more pics to see whether I can spot any more short-rib 1'81/2". The Bible is very bad on buffer info.

 

Further down the same page is AA20 W68763 coupled to a fitted TOAD. The latter has what I thought were RCH buffers (possibly with a welded extension but you cant really tell) and they look different to those on 17410, at least to my eyes.

 

Thats what prompted me to query what 17410's actually are!

 

I photo i linked on Sunday of 35938 is this short rib type I think.

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by Hal Nail
typo

[57xx]

3 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Further down the same page is AA20 W68763 coupled to a fitted TOAD. The latter has what I thought were RCH buffers (possibly with a welded extension but you cant really tell) and they look different to those on 17410, at least to my eyes.

 

Thats what prompted me to query what 17410's actually are!

 

I photo i linked on Sunday of 35938 is this short rib type I think.

 

 

It does look like a welded collar extension on there. The sides ribs are large but I can't see if there is a top rib clearly, so not 100% sure it is RCH, but I don't recall any GWR types with large/long side ribs.

 

35938 is indeed GWR short rib, long shank.

 

23 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

I see what you mean about the ribs, but I felt they were RCH because of the shape of the base (rectangular, with small radius corners) whereas GWR ones have larger radius corners. I need to spend some time looking at more pics to see whether I can spot any more short-rib 1'81/2". The Bible is very bad on buffer info.

 

I was under the impression (rightly or wrongly) that you could tell RCH buffers by the fact they were always 4 rib and had the shorter top rib for the shunter to rest his pole across the buffers.

[Miss Prism]

On 07/01/2022 at 00:17, 57xx said:

I was under the impression (rightly or wrongly) that you could tell RCH buffers by the fact they were always 4 rib and had the shorter top rib for the shunter to rest his pole across the buffers.

 

And I'm now toadally confused:

 

[[[]]]]]  

AA21 1'8 1/2" short-rib, no rib on top:
https://www.svrwiki.com/mediawiki-1.28.2/images/2/20/GWR_17410a_20180626.jpg

 

AA23 1'8 1/2" short-rib, no rib on top:  (as previously discussed)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/stuart166axe/14675187323

 

 

AA23 1'6" short-rib, no rib on top:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/68480_GWR_Brake_Van_at_Norchard.jpg

 

 

AA21 1'8 1/2" short-rib, no rib on top:
https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/article.php/219/no-17447-toad-a-20t-brake-van

 

AA21 1'8 1/2" short-rib, no rib on top:
http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=8165

 

AA21 1'8 1/2" short-rib, no rib on top:
http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=10354

 

AA21 1'6" short-rib, no rib on top:
http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=7196

 

AA21 1'8 1/2" short-rib, no rib on top:
http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=6790

 

AA21 1'8 1/2" short-rib, no rib on top:
http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=8554

 

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Miss Prism
entries removed arising from subsequent postings. but cr&p software totally messed up the edit

[Hal Nail]

4 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

And I'm now toadally confused:

 

AA20 1'6" long-rib, no rib on top:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/GWR_AA20_68784_in_Bitton_yard.JPG

 

AA21 1'8 1/2" (??), long-rib, seems like no rib on top
http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=8175

 

AA21 1'6" (with a collar?), long-rib, seems like no rib on top:
http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=6485

 

 

There is actually a short angled top rib on those three if you zoom in, so RCH. The bottom one has a welded extension. That only leaves the Bovey Tracey long rib one and i can't zoom in on that.

 

So given a lot are the short rib type, the question is were they actually built with GWR buffers and some acquired RCH later?

 

I bought some astronomically expensive RCH yesterday so I fear the worst!

 

Incidentally there has been similar chat elsewhere about GWR built conflats. Dapol in 7mm have done the short rib GWR type but again I'd read they had rch.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Hal Nail
clarity

[hmrspaul]

10 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

 

 

 

Incidentally there has been similar chat elsewhere about GWR built conflats. Dapol in 7mm have done the short rib GWR type but again I'd read they had rch.

Most of the early Conflats on my site have what appears to be similar to one of the GWR designs of buffer with side rib but no top rib.https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brconflata  Similar to many of the later GWR Toads https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrbrakevan  I'm assuming that RCH buffer is referring to one of the full webbed buffers. 

Paul

[57xx]

30 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

 I'm assuming that RCH buffer is referring to one of the full webbed buffers. 

 

 

Yes, as per my assumption:

17 hours ago, 57xx said:

I was under the impression (rightly or wrongly) that you could tell RCH buffers by the fact they were always 4 rib and had the shorter top rib for the shunter to rest his pole across the buffers.

 

I'm not aware of a) any RCH pattern buffers having 2 ribs and b) any GWR pattern buffers having 4 ribs (the self contained ones have 6, but otherwise it was 2 or 0).

[57xx]

12 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

There is actually a short angled top rib on those three if you zoom in, so RCH. The bottom one has a welded extension. That only leaves the Bovey Tracey long rib one and i can't zoom in on that.

 

They are hard to see, but agreed they do have the top rib and you can also see the rib underneath on some too.

 

Ref zooming the Bovey Tracy one:

 

 

There doesn't look to be a top or bottom rib. The side rib does look full length, but I'm wondering if it is an optical illusion?

[Hal Nail]

I think most of the unfitted ones that have come up do seem to have 4 rib (RCH).

 

Piped/fitted is where it gets messy but of course some of those will have been converted later, so perhaps not surprising there is more variety and also they were more likely to have lasted in use longer so could have been altered again later in life or even in preservation. 

 

Let's just chalk that Bovey one down to experience!

 

Edit: the conflat page Paul has linked above does have quite a few more with this Bovey type - no obvious top rib but with longer side ribs and i think possibly a bottom rib too. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Hal Nail

[Miss Prism]

On 07/01/2022 at 06:10, Hal Nail said:

There is actually a short angled top rib on those three if you zoom in, so RCH.

 

Ok. I tried to edit my post to show 'entry deleted' in those three places (plus the Bovey Tracey one for good luck, I can't tell whether it has a bottom rib), but the cr&p RMweb software wouldn't play, and left a lot of the posting corrupted. I will have to delete the whole lot and substitute a new list, but I can't be arsed now.

 

[Hal Nail]

5 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Ok. I tried to edit my post to show 'entry deleted' in those three places (plus the Bovey Tracey one for good luck, I can't tell whether it has a bottom rib), but the cr&p RMweb software wouldn't play, and left a lot of the posting corrupted. I will have to delete the whole lot and substitute a new list, but I can't be arsed now.

 

I wasn't trying to correct you, just puzzled!

 

it seems there are at least three types we've been seeing - 1) rch 1923 with 4 ribs which looks like it was the default for non-fitted 2) the long thin short side rib ex gwr, which I think is usually on fitted/piped stock (but no idea if original or only on stock converted later) and 3 a long one with long side ribs which I don't think we are totally sure about. Is this just the longer version of the rch designed for fitted stock maybe?

[Hal Nail]

Some quick snaps at Bristol docks today.

 

GWR and long 4 rib type on either end of 17391 (fitted AA20 I think). Take your pick which, if either, are original! Then for comparison the shorter 4 rib verson I thought was standard RCH, on a Mogo.

 

Edit to add the two longer ones are about the same length - the top photo makes them look shorter but it's an illusion.

 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Hal Nail

[Hal Nail]

Small footnote: I've been in touch with Slaters to enquire about their 4 rib buffers as supplied with their 12t BR Standard van and they market these as "NE van buffers" and not in fact either of the two RCH types they do. Curious! 

[The Stationmaster]

As a matter of interest what livery is that grey painted van carrying?  If it is in BR livery it would presumably be bauxite if it is fitted and if it is in GWR livery (although the grey seems very pale!) it's not fitted but piped according to the (red) colour of the 'standpipes'.

[Hal Nail]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

As a matter of interest what livery is that grey painted van carrying?  If it is in BR livery it would presumably be bauxite if it is fitted and if it is in GWR livery (although the grey seems very pale!) it's not fitted but piped according to the (red) colour of the 'standpipes'.

Bit of a hybrid. No black patches and no W but basically unfitted BR grey. Ironically just about everything else was in bauxite!

Edited January 15, 2022 by Hal Nail