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online selling/buying stl 3d print files?


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1 minute ago, tebee said:

Now I've made a decent number of my designs available for free on the Thingiverse. Quite a few people have made money reselling them on ebay - I don't mind, I did it to promote 009 and 3d printing. 

 

Downside is there have been some very inferior versions done, which have probably done little to promote 3d printing, but overall I'm happy with the experience.

 

I did a little experiment last year selling stls of various things for a lowish price - 80% went fine but the other 20% of people needed too much hand holding - it's OK selling the STL for £10, but not when you need spend 2 hours trying to explain to people what they are doing wrong !

Tom, pleased to see you here. I seem to remember you mentioning something about 'hand holding' before. One reason I will probably just offer designs for free download. I can still use the SW platform, which means they will sit alongside my other designs only available to buy through Shapeways. I will add a rider to say that I can't advise about printings problems.

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Is there the option to provide the stl file free for the majority of the model but it excludes one or two crucial items that you would physically provide at a charge? Something that links two major parts together that the model cannot do without.

 

The recipient has the pleasure of printing the model in their own preferred medium and the choice of either designing the missing critical component themselves or paying you a fair price for the whole model. This would be a price that fairly recognises both the cost of physically providing the critical component and the work you have invested in the overall project.

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Oh I still lurk round here - just too busy  with designing things and rebuilding houses ( I'm currently converting the other half of my house here into 3 flats to rent out) to spend much time replying.

 

I do wish there was a simple way to share STLs for profit. Problem is once you sell the STL you have very little legal  control over what people do with it. You can (in theory) stop duplicating the file and giving copies to other people, but trying to restrict what they do with the  things they produce from that file is a legal minefield.

 

You could in theory   issue a licence for them to produce x number of copies, but it's very possible that the first sale doctrine could invalidate that anyway.

 

And if you did want to chase anyone up for copyright infringement you would be talking about investing  £5000-£200,000 in a case where you might only win a few pounds in damages and there is every chance you would not win.

 

My though was to make the stls cheap in the first place so people would have no incentive to copy, but that then hit the problem of people not  realizing that 3d printing still requires some skills.

 

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My main issue here is that Shapeways is still being deemed as supplying high quality products at a reasonable price - These days it does neither. The quality of the finish and the price per-unit (including failed prints!) have both been eclipsed by resin printers. Several of us have said that we'd be happy to pay for files, and I'd be happy to agree to a license agreement to protect the creator's IP.

 

Apologies if I'm repeating myself, I think I'm just annoyed at the prospect of having to draw up quite a few things that are available on Shapeways, so printable files for them exist, but I am unable and unwilling to pay Shapeways' prices for Shapeways' relatively low quality.

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I think ScaleScenes really provides a test case in a lot of ways - including price. As I pointed out before, ScaleScenes PDFs are out of John's control as soon as someone downloads them, but that doesn't -seem- to undermine his business. 

 

I think his prices help explain that - most between £3 and £9, I think? Few people are going to baulk at that, so illicit sharing doesn't seem to be much of a problem.

 

Looking on the Cults3D site, there are some really nice and very detailed "kits" for 1:72 aircraft - some for as little as £2! That actually seems too cheap to me! But single figures seems to be the key.

 

The other way to think about it is how much commission do you actually get from a Shapeways sale? I've never actually sold on there, but when I looked into it a few years ago, it was a pretty low %. So probably actually single figures £ too?

 

Digital locks ("DRM" - Digital Rights Management) are a non starter for reasons already mentioned - not least in terms of STL files needing to be processed and transferred to printers via any number of different routes for different machines. I think the trick really is in setting a price that encourages honesty to strike a balance!

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Certainly I always found it difficult to balance a reasonable selling price with a reasonable mark up. Unlike some, I tended to sacrifice the mark up for a reasonable selling price as it was so small as to not be bothering with.

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Comparing apples and oranges is not the best way to decide which is best for someone. Shapeways offer a worldwide service, without any of the hazzle anyone running their own worldwide service would have.

Even for own country , if anyone wants to start using their quality home printer to supply models then please go ahead.

But, have you taken everything into account? Firstly you need to take print time into account, then materials and maintenance. Then there is time it takes to set up delivery(eg package and take items to post office), and then sort out any problems such as non delivery, or damage caused in transit. And finally are you paying all the bills you need to pay for such as public liability insurance and possibly more local tax because you are manufacturing at home. If you want to set oveseas then it gets more complex, and insurance may be much higher. Many try to get away without paying for insurance but may eventuallly find out that was a mistake.

I prefer to just do the design, and not have to worry about manufacture and delivery, worldwide.I can take days off, get sick and everything still keeps running.My markup is not high but is enough, and by doing a wide range of scales, gauges and subject matter, I now have a pretty good idea of what people want. It is because of this that I know when something will cost too much, so will consider offering those designs for free download.

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2 hours ago, tebee said:

I did a little experiment last year selling stls of various things for a lowish price - 80% went fine but the other 20% of people needed too much hand holding - it's OK selling the STL for £10, but not when you need spend 2 hours trying to explain to people what they are doing wrong !

 

Might be easier to simply offer someone a refund if they're clearly clueless about doing the print?

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4 hours ago, tebee said:

I did a little experiment last year selling stls of various things for a lowish price - 80% went fine but the other 20% of people needed too much hand holding - it's OK selling the STL for £10, but not when you need spend 2 hours trying to explain to people what they are doing wrong !

 

Of course, if it was free you wouldn't feel any obligation to assist, nor should there be any expectation that you will do so.  I guess like almost everything in life there's two sides to every story, neither of which are ideal.

I still think that as I'm not running a business, then if I do something for my own use I might as well let others benefit as well i.e. use it if you want.  If they choose to try and make a few pennies off it, then I'd also be fine by that.  It really is a few pennies, and once you go to the hassle of declaring it to the taxman (you do, don't you?!!!!) and the hassle of product support, I for one don't think it's worth the bother.


Steve

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1 hour ago, justin1985 said:

 

Might be easier to simply offer someone a refund if they're clearly clueless about doing the print?

 

Maybe, but then they go away feeling cheated or even worse, thinking that you are calling them stupid. 

 

Or of course they could just say they are having problems to get a refund......

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2 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

Maybe, but then they go away feeling cheated or even worse, thinking that you are calling them stupid. 

 

Or of course they could just say they are having problems to get a refund......

 

And giving them a refund they still have the file to use. Good to see you still about tebee, hope your keeping well.

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50 minutes ago, 55020 said:

 

It really is a few pennies, and once you go to the hassle of declaring it to the taxman (you do, don't you?!!!!) and the hassle of product support, I for one don't think it's worth the bother.
 

You get a £1,000 per annum “trading allowance” for this sort of thing. 

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59 minutes ago, 55020 said:

 

.....  It really is a few pennies, and once you go to the hassle of declaring it to the taxman (you do, don't you?!!!!) and the hassle of product support, I for one don't think it's worth the bother.


Steve

 

 

This is another problem for me - I'm in France and selling things means registering a business to do this, however payments from Shapeways count as royalties, where you don't need to have a registered business -  like an author,  I could be receiving those royalties long after I've done the work creating something.

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3 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

 

This is another problem for me - I'm in France and selling things means registering a business to do this, however payments from Shapeways count as royalties, where you don't need to have a registered business -  like an author,  I could be receiving those royalties long after I've done the work creating something.

If you sell anything regularly and as a business you have to register with HMRC in the UK as well, and pay National insurance contributions and insurance etc. The taxman watches eBay etc and will send you a tax demand 12 months after they first see you trading. I work in accounting and have a business registered with HMRC, don't think that because you are only doing a small amount you will be ignored as njee20 said you only get a £1,000 trading allowance.

 

Stay safe and don't expose yourself to any risks.

 

Simon

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with Shapeways you are not selling anything(which might be one reason why stl files can't be bought from it). You design the models, they are put on their website, and anyone who wants to buy a model, buys one from Shapeways. The contract is between the customer and Shapeways. Shapeways then, pay in effect a royalty to the designer.

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57 minutes ago, simonmcp said:

The taxman watches eBay etc and will send you a tax demand 12 months after they first see you trading. I work in accounting and have a business registered with HMRC, don't think that because you are only doing a small amount you will be ignored as njee20 said you only get a £1,000 trading allowance.

How do they define or identify trading versus having a clear out of your stuff? Do HMRC pay full time eBay scouts? That feels a bit like "vans that can tell if you're watching TV without a licence" to me.

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12 hours ago, 55020 said:

 

I seem to be totally at odds with the world.  If I do something for pleasure, which is what this hobby is to me, why should I expect financial gain or reward for that enjoyment?  If I spend time developing something in CAD for the fun of it, I have no internal desire to find recompence from others for the time spent.  I would spend the time no matter what, so why would I "count my labour cost"?

As I stated, I do seem to be on my own with this viewpoint.  Obviously I'm the mug :-)

 

 

Steve

 

 

Perhaps my language wasn't clear. I said nothing about hobbyists who are only interested in making their own creations for themselves having  any financial expectations.  Only someone who wants to now or eventually sell their creativity would estimate or record their effort and ask for a corresponding value on their time and/or material results. 

 

Andy

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Would is a bit strong, they may. I've never recorded how much time I spend doing something; but yes, I also don't sell purely for the cost of the materials.

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4 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

Comparing apples and oranges is not the best way to decide which is best for someone. Shapeways offer a worldwide service, without any of the hazzle anyone running their own worldwide service would have.

Even for own country , if anyone wants to start using their quality home printer to supply models then please go ahead.

But, have you taken everything into account? Firstly you need to take print time into account, then materials and maintenance. Then there is time it takes to set up delivery(eg package and take items to post office), and then sort out any problems such as non delivery, or damage caused in transit. And finally are you paying all the bills you need to pay for such as public liability insurance and possibly more local tax because you are manufacturing at home. If you want to set oveseas then it gets more complex, and insurance may be much higher. Many try to get away without paying for insurance but may eventuallly find out that was a mistake.

I prefer to just do the design, and not have to worry about manufacture and delivery, worldwide.I can take days off, get sick and everything still keeps running.My markup is not high but is enough, and by doing a wide range of scales, gauges and subject matter, I now have a pretty good idea of what people want. It is because of this that I know when something will cost too much, so will consider offering those designs for free download.

 

What you are asking for is a business that does the same as shapeways does for prints, but for .stl files on a single use per fee basis. Such a business probably will exist eventually, if not not already. But it will have a complex e-commerce and protection functionally, for which you, the drawing owner, will be need to be charged a profitable fee. What that fee might be is difficult to estimate.

 

Andy

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8 hours ago, Damo666 said:

Is there the option to provide the stl file free for the majority of the model but it excludes one or two crucial items that you would physically provide at a charge? Something that links two major parts together that the model cannot do without.

 

The recipient has the pleasure of printing the model in their own preferred medium and the choice of either designing the missing critical component themselves or paying you a fair price for the whole model. This would be a price that fairly recognises both the cost of physically providing the critical component and the work you have invested in the overall project.

 

 

I've seen some 3D modellers of figures (fantasy super hero)  etc do something like this - provide 'sample' or simplified prints free of charge, if you want the complete high res model, or access to their other models you join their patreon page or whatever where links to their other stuff is available..

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4 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

Comparing apples and oranges is not the best way to decide which is best for someone. Shapeways offer a worldwide service, without any of the hazzle anyone running their own worldwide service would have.

Even for own country , if anyone wants to start using their quality home printer to supply models then please go ahead.

But, have you taken everything into account? Firstly you need to take print time into account, then materials and maintenance. Then there is time it takes to set up delivery(eg package and take items to post office), and then sort out any problems such as non delivery, or damage caused in transit. And finally are you paying all the bills you need to pay for such as public liability insurance and possibly more local tax because you are manufacturing at home. If you want to set oveseas then it gets more complex, and insurance may be much higher. Many try to get away without paying for insurance but may eventuallly find out that was a mistake.

I prefer to just do the design, and not have to worry about manufacture and delivery, worldwide.I can take days off, get sick and everything still keeps running.My markup is not high but is enough, and by doing a wide range of scales, gauges and subject matter, I now have a pretty good idea of what people want. It is because of this that I know when something will cost too much, so will consider offering those designs for free download.

 

What you are asking for is a business that does the same as shapeways does for prints, but for .stl files on a single use per fee basis. Such a business probably will exist eventually, if not not already. But it will have a complex e-commerce and protection functionally, for which you, the drawing owner, will be need to be charged a profitable fee to use the service. What that fee might be is difficult to estimate.

 

Andy

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I'm very much with @sem34090 on this.  A good while ago I was really tempted by an item on Shapeways.  Fortunately, I was experiencing a cash-flow issue at the time and so deferred things.  I later saw a real life example of the print at an exhibition and the difference between the render and the real thing was stark.  Any thoughts of buying from Shapeways evaporated.  Their prices have rocketed since then and many quite cheap resin printers produce a better finish.  My hope is that a Shapeways-in-Resin outfit will emerge and @rue_d_etropal and friends will migrate there.  There are a good number of designs that @rue_d_etropal particularly has produced that interest me but until they're in a different material I won't be spending money.

 

Alan

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8 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

Comparing apples and oranges is not the best way to decide which is best for someone. Shapeways offer a worldwide service, without any of the hazzle anyone running their own worldwide service would have.

Even for own country , if anyone wants to start using their quality home printer to supply models then please go ahead.

But, have you taken everything into account? Firstly you need to take print time into account, then materials and maintenance. Then there is time it takes to set up delivery(eg package and take items to post office), and then sort out any problems such as non delivery, or damage caused in transit. And finally are you paying all the bills you need to pay for such as public liability insurance and possibly more local tax because you are manufacturing at home. If you want to set oveseas then it gets more complex, and insurance may be much higher. Many try to get away without paying for insurance but may eventuallly find out that was a mistake.

 

I don't think anyone was suggesting this though?

 

The point was that now a reasonable number of modellers have their own 3D printers (usually for printing their own designs, I think) we'd love the chance to buy STLs of files that are currently on Shapeways to print ourselves, for our own layouts, because we'd get better results. 

 

I know a handful of small businesses do offer home printed resin prints commercially, but as you rightly say, that is probably more trouble than it's worth in the long run! Better to leave selling physical prints to the busineses that are set up for it.

 

But for those who prefer to roll their own, a site like Cults3D (it was only the first Google hit, there may be better ones out there!) seem to be the ideal solution, surely?

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23 minutes ago, Buhar said:

I'm very much with @sem34090 on this.  A good while ago I was really tempted by an item on Shapeways.  Fortunately, I was experiencing a cash-flow issue at the time and so deferred things.  I later saw a real life example of the print at an exhibition and the difference between the render and the real thing was stark.  Any thoughts of buying from Shapeways evaporated.  Their prices have rocketed since then and many quite cheap resin printers produce a better finish.  My hope is that a Shapeways-in-Resin outfit will emerge and @rue_d_etropal and friends will migrate there.  There are a good number of designs that @rue_d_etropal particularly has produced that interest me but until they're in a different material I won't be spending money.

 

Alan

 

14 minutes ago, justin1985 said:

 

I don't think anyone was suggesting this though?

 

The point was that now a reasonable number of modellers have their own 3D printers (usually for printing their own designs, I think) we'd love the chance to buy STLs of files that are currently on Shapeways to print ourselves, for our own layouts, because we'd get better results. 

 

I know a handful of small businesses do offer home printed resin prints commercially, but as you rightly say, that is probably more trouble than it's worth in the long run! Better to leave selling physical prints to the busineses that are set up for it.

 

But for those who prefer to roll their own, a site like Cults3D (it was only the first Google hit, there may be better ones out there!) seem to be the ideal solution, surely?

You two have summed it up. We wouldn't buy the designs from shapeways because the quality isn't up to what we usually manage at home and the price is exorbitant (Even when you count materials and maintenance, Simon. A 1l bottle of resin, enough to do quite a few 1:76 loco bodies, with a few failed attempts is less, slightly more or equivalent to purchasing one of your 1:76 loco bodies, in the dreaded and relatively hard (but not impossible) to work with former-WSF. Maintenance is pretty limited, in my experience and has cost pennies compared with what's been produced.) for the lack of quality offered by the finished product. I'm not suggesting that it's perfect -far from it- but quite a few home resin printers are producing consistently better results than Shapeways.

 

I'm not for one moment suggesting that you don't sell via Shapeways, as you may remember I once had no other option than to buy from the likes of Shapeways and it's a useful outlet for buying and selling where few comparable options exist. But I also feel that you're leaving a few (possibly very few) potential customers regretfully turning away -in my case to basically try and replicate a sizeable portion of your product range because it reflects my interests. I dare say I might then offer the files for free download- because we don't want to pay substantial sums of money for Shapeways' output!

 

Apologies if that comes across as confrontational, it's not really meant to be - I'm just frustrated that I'm not in a position to purchase any of your products and (crucially) get a decent model in return for my expenditure. 

 

But then, each of us to his own. There are probably precious few of us asking for this option, so it's probably not worth your time. Ultimately, I do have the drawings so if I want the locos enough then I'll draw them up and maybe offer them for download, we'll see if they're good enough.

 

One final, slightly unrelated, point - Do you have any chassis recommendations for your Metropolitan H?

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