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Currently I'm reading Terry Essery's books on his firing days at Saltley during the 1950s - totally recommended by the way.

 

One thing is puzzling me though. He refers to "attaching our headlamps in the Class A position, ie one on the smokebox and one over the left buffer". Now Terry is talking about a freight train on the Midland Division of BR. I thought that Class A was an express passenger, but the headlamp positions he describes are more  for an express freight without continuous brakes. 

 

Did trainmen use a different jargon/lingo to talk about the classification of their trains?

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I wondered if the A & B reference might be something peculiar to the Midland Division (or even throughout the LMR) which could refer to Load Table brake force and or timings (but duly noting the comment from 'Caley 739' which suggests that it might not mean that).  Now having just down loaded a WTT which covers part of the Midland Division, albeit pre BR, what do I find on the very first page I looked at but a Maltese Cross freight with a letter B at the head of the column.  But what it means in that WTT is that the train is worked by a Western Division engine and crew.  Maybe an A meant a Midland division engine and crew but you'd need a Western Division WTT to answer that one.  Or it all changed after 1948 and meant something else?

 

Also going back to the OP one lamp on the smokebox bracket plus one over the left hand buffer would be a  Class D Express freight with continuous brake operative on not less than one third of the vehicles.  Top lamp position plus one over the right hand buffer was a Class F Express freight without a continuous brake.

 

Lamp positions should always be described as they would be seen looking at a train as it approaches you (and not as they might be regarded from the engine cab).  An interesting aside to this is that in photos S&DJtR in BR days lamping always appears to be incorrect in that context and is the opposite way round to the way specified in the Appendix;  so maybe left and right meant something different on 'the Darset'!

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3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

Lamp positions should always be described as they would be seen looking at a train as it approaches you (and not as they might be regarded from the engine cab).  An interesting aside to this is that in photos S&DJtR in BR days lamping always appears to be incorrect in that context and is the opposite way round to the way specified in the Appendix;  so maybe left and right meant something different on 'the Darset'!

Now that's interesting and the inverse of my experience as train crew, both as a guard on BR and a fireman on the SVR. Left and right were always taken as applying to the direction in which the train was travelling, irrespective of the direction the engine was going, i.e. chimney or tender first, and as seen from the cab.  So 'one at the top, the other over the right hand buffer' would be a Class D; 'one at the top, one over the left buffer' was Class F.

 

Confusing? There are several photos of e.c.s. working running as express goods, judging by the headcode!

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May I refer you to Bob Esserys' softback books "Freight train operation" pgs 62 and 63 and "Passenger Train Operation" pg 36.  Although these are not primary sources they indicate posible explanations for both the "Class A" reference by the first post and the maltese cross by stationmaster.

 

Class A in this context I believe is not a reference to the headcodes but to a type of partially vacuum fitted freight, Class B being a vacuum fitted train with less fitted wagons.  These terms appear on the older MR headcodes list not the later BR one and so are perhaps historical terminology carrried over or reference to another source perhaps the rulebook? 

 

In a GWR timetable the maltese cross would an "Accelerated E" freight.

 

Caveat - the poster refers to the Midland Region and BR period whereas my limited knowledge is mostly GWR 1930s.

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Courtesy of Signalling Record Society Research Note 11, it seems the use of Class A, B etc for goods trains was fairly widespread, the first example I found was L&YR 1902, which used the terminology "Special Express Goods Class A" and "Express Goods Train, Class B", the GNR using a similar idea in 1905, as did the H&BR.The GWR / LNWR Joint line in 1917 hadn't succumbed to the concept, but the Cambrian quoted it in 1911, with reference to the GWR / LNWR / MR services over their system, but the GWR was using A and B by 1918. By 1919 the GER had extended it to C Class goods trains, with a cryptic note "Class A and Class B Express Goods trains, must, if necessary, be shunted where required for trains running in skeleton times  No. 2 shewn on Working Timetable." By 1927 the LNER had got to Class D - Goods Mineral or Empties train stopping at intermediate stations - and the CLC had followed suit by 1935, but the GWR had dropped it by 1936. 

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19 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

Now that's interesting and the inverse of my experience as train crew, both as a guard on BR and a fireman on the SVR. Left and right were always taken as applying to the direction in which the train was travelling, irrespective of the direction the engine was going, i.e. chimney or tender first, and as seen from the cab.  So 'one at the top, the other over the right hand buffer' would be a Class D; 'one at the top, one over the left buffer' was Class F.

 

Confusing? There are several photos of e.c.s. working running as express goods, judging by the headcode!

Which does of course explain why trains were often seen incorrectly lamped.(and it seems to have been a common error on the part of footplate staff).  Interestingly the WR 1960 Regional Appendix sort of solves it by showing a 4 character headcode panel next to the lamp code and thus confirming it is as viewed from the front.   The early 1920s General Appendix was issued to all operating staff and it also contained the Signalling Regulations (in those examples I have seen).  However far more conclusive proof of the way headlamps were 'for the information of Signalmen and others' - and were therefore illustrated as seen from the front - was contained in various issues of the General and other Appendixes.  

 

The following item can be found in the GWR 1936 General Appendix as part of the preamble to the headlamp codes (it was also included in the 1960 WR Regional Appendix)

 

'The object of the distinguishing headlamps on the engines is to ensure prompt and sufficient advice being given to stations in advance in order that the trains may be dealt with according to their importance.  Signalmen and all others concerned are therefore requested to see that trains are signalled in accordance with the headlamps, and the appropriate 'Is Line Clear?' bell code'

 

Something of similar meaning but much more tersely worded appeared in the BR 1960 and 1972 issues of the General Appendix (the latter adding the words 'classification number' immediately before 'engine headlamps'  (the 1960 issue was of course the first General Appendix issued to apply to the whole of BR).

 

'Each train will be signalled and take precedence in accordance with the engine headlamps, or discs, except where instructions are issued to the contrary, and drivers will be responsible for seeing that the proper headcode is carried.'

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Hello Mike and LMS 2968

 

I discussed the question of viewing direction with a number of BR steam loco drivers some years ago. They all said as viewed from the cab in a forward direction (Driver's left or right hand).

 

I'm fairly certain I have seen an Appendix that states that, too. I'll have look to see what I can find.

 

Brian

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9 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Which does of course explain why trains were often seen incorrectly lamped.(and it seems to have been a common error on the part of footplate staff).  Interestingly the WR 1960 Regional Appendix sort of solves it by showing a 4 character headcode panel next to the lamp code and thus confirming it is as viewed from the front.   The early 1920s General Appendix was issued to all operating staff and it also contained the Signalling Regulations (in those examples I have seen).  However far more conclusive proof of the way headlamps were 'for the information of Signalmen and others' - and were therefore illustrated as seen from the front - was contained in various issues of the General and other Appendixes.  

 

9 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello Mike and LMS 2968

 

I discussed the question of viewing direction with a number of BR steam loco drivers some years ago. They all said as viewed from the cab in a forward direction (Driver's left or right hand).

 

I'm fairly certain I have seen an Appendix that states that, too. I'll have look to see what I can find.

 

Brian

The SLS collection states in its forward. RH and LH are always given from the driver's viewpoint in the direction of travel. In the earlier appendices reference is often made to "over right (or left) buffer" but the accompanying diagrams confirm that it is with reference to the driver's viewpoint. The RCH system generally adopted in Edwardian days seems to rely, sensibly, on the diagrams, which would remove any potential ambiguity, although in 1916 the LNWR verbalised the headcodes, and saw fit to clearly state "NOTE - "Right-hand" and "Left-hand" side of chimney or buffer are to be understood as referring to the Engine Driver's right-hand or left-hand side, looking in the direction in which he is travelling." Similar wording appears in the GER  appendix for 1919, and the LNER in 1927 and 1942 .

Presumably the confusion arises from the fact that headcodes are effectively reversed for the observer, much the same as in the theatre where stage-right and stage-left are similarly reversed for the audience. As long as all those involved know their place then everything is hunky-dory.

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Thanks Nick

 

That does fully concur with what I found when speaking to the drivers...some of whom have sadly now passed on.

 

The 'checking' arose (some years ago now) because an ex-railwayman author and publisher had stated on a web group that railwaymen described lamp positions according to the clock face. That might have applied to 'semaphore codes' as used in an area of Scotland, but none of my drivers from the north, midlands and south had ever heard of anything different to that described by Nick.

 

When I asked my driver friends, I sent them one or two 'sample headcodes' and asked them what they would say to their firemen to achieve the correct position(s). They all took it 'as viewed from the cab looking forwards' (not from the view of an observer standing in front of the oncoming loco/train).

 

Brian

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I have now additionally checked the GWR 1920 General Appendix which confirms the lamping is definitely as seen on an approaching train by givng not only the classification letter but also the block signalling bell code plus the same comments as I noted previously about Signalmen etc noting the lamps and using the appropriate bell code - that can only be done if you see a train from the front.  So maybe the GWR and WR were different (but somehow in 1960 I really doubt it).   And apart from anything else. although fast disappearing m in my time, it was what we were taught by some quite senior people in operations on the Region and my own added notes from that time in my copy of the Block Regulations agree with that situation.  And that clearly went back a long way as this item from a set of GWR instructional course notes published in 1937 clearly shows :- Head Lights - Warn staff that a train is coming, and describe character and sometimes destination of train : carried unlighted in same positions during daylight ; advantages of Universal Code in everyday working. (these notes refer directly to the diagrams and associated notes in the then current General Appendix and obviously the 'character of the train' could only be determined if the position of the lights agreed with those shown in the diagrams in the GA).

 

Having dealt with rather a lot of them over many years and knowing the nonsense some of them come out with I tend to be careful when talking to older (and some younger!) railwaymen and I've come across Drivers who came out with some very odd things so apart from obvious local peculiarities (sometimes no doubt exaggerated?) I have always been inclined to check in an official publication such as an Appendix or take note of what I had been taught by those who clearly did know what they were on about.  For example on one occasion I actually had to take a General Appendix to a Driver and read an item out to him in order to convince him to do what I had asked him to do and make a shunting movement into an occupied enter a single line section without a token, really basic stuff that he (a Top Link Driver) didn't know.  On another occasion I found that a number of Drivers were using an incorrect (too low)  maximum speed over a newly opened stretch of railway - because they hadn't bothered to look at the official Notice but had been told by a Traction Inspector what the maximum speed was.

 

Oh and yes I have heard footplatemen talk about lamping the other way round and saying it was left hand as seen from the cab but of course the diagrams very sensibly from the 1930s onwards do not specify a 'hand' but normally only show a picture.  Equally I know of instances on the WR where Enginemen received a telling-off for incorrectly lamped trains and one past Chief Signalling Inspector who I knew well had been a regular complainant about incorrectly lamped trains in his days as a Signalman.   There is I suspect a fairly long and deep misunderstanding which goes back to far earlier times when things probably were different  and the lamps a train was carrying were not so important.  

 

 

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Hello Mike

 

It's possible we are talking at cross purposes...it all rather depends on whether we are 'driver & fireman' or, say, a signalman or other observer. To the best of my information, drivers instructed firemen to lamp up according to direction of travel and driver's left or right hand (not from observer perspective).

 

All the drivers I spoke with were noted for their knowledge and respected in their community - one was S&D man, Peter Smith. (And, yes, I have met one or two drivers who would have you believe that they have driven 60103 and the Royal Train on the same day at record breaking speed!:).)

 

Attached is a snippet from a 1961 WR WTT - the statement 'left hand buffer' refers to the driver's left hand in forward direction (no matter chimney or tender first). The 'normal' code for a passenger train on the S&D.

 

Brian

 

 

IMG_6940.jpg

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Just to add to the mix, the London railway expert Harold Borley wrote to the Underground News in 1981 regarding East London Railways headcodes in 1884 and used the terms near-side and off-side to denote lamp positions. Whether they were actually used in 1884 is debatable, or whether Harold used more modern language is debatable, but the terminology did seem to be used with regard to positioning tail lamps, but not when discussing headcodes, although it would seem to be a good way to get over the confusion we've been encountering, assuming that the staff understood what was intended! 

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This is interesting - complete with photos linked to some headcodes -

 

http://www.2d53.co.uk/Headcode/headcodeC.htm

 

 

On 23/05/2020 at 17:12, BMacdermott said:

Hello Mike

 

It's possible we are talking at cross purposes...it all rather depends on whether we are 'driver & fireman' or, say, a signalman or other observer. To the best of my information, drivers instructed firemen to lamp up according to direction of travel and driver's left or right hand (not from observer perspective).

 

All the drivers I spoke with were noted for their knowledge and respected in their community - one was S&D man, Peter Smith. (And, yes, I have met one or two drivers who would have you believe that they have driven 60103 and the Royal Train on the same day at record breaking speed!:).)

 

Attached is a snippet from a 1961 WR WTT - the statement 'left hand buffer' refers to the driver's left hand in forward direction (no matter chimney or tender first). The 'normal' code for a passenger train on the S&D.

 

Brian

 

 

IMG_6940.jpg

The S&D Jt appears to have always used its own headcodes and clearly from the extract you posted above that continued (in some respects) after 1960.  The codes in the 1933 Appendix (which presumably remained in effect until October 1960) were as follows -

Passenger trains - a white light at the foot of the chimney and a white light above the left buffer

Freight trains - a white light at the foot of the chimney and a white light above the right buffer

Light engines - a white light at the foot of the chimney

 

From October 1960 I can find no record of any local codes remaining in use on the S&D and the Regional Appendix states that the standard codes applied throughout the WR (which then included the S&D Jt).  That is supported by the extract you posted which is shown as an exception to the standard codes for through trains and light engines to/from the SR.  Thus after October 1960 the official situation was that all S&D Jt passenger trains which did not run south of Templecombe Junction should carry standard Class A or B lamps.  some photos I have seen suggest that S&D Jt 'independence' carried on after that date in various ways.

 

The manner in which some enginemen describe lamp positions in relation top viewing them from the cab end of the engine is a long standing situation  (as I mentioned above).  However the fact (as opposed to the practice of some) remains that lamp positions were there 'for the information and action of Signalmen and others' universally from October 1960, and definitely in the case of at least the GWR for 40 years before that, and they could only see the lamp positions of a train as it approached them.  Hence what I was taught way back in the late 1960s.  Or as I used to  Drivers of long experience 'where did you stand when lamping an engine if you weren't a station platform - the answer was always along the lines of  " in front of it unless I had to climb on to reach the top bracket".   Next question of course was 'where were left and right when you stood looking at the front of the engine?'  Overall I doubt it is something which will ever be settled as many enginemen will always stick to 'on the left when seen from the cab' line - which doesn't mean they were right but it was what they had learnt as Firemen.

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1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

The manner in which some enginemen describe lamp positions in relation top viewing them from the cab end of the engine is a long standing situation  (as I mentioned above).  However the fact (as opposed to the practice of some) remains that lamp positions were there 'for the information and action of Signalmen and others' universally from October 1960, and definitely in the case of at least the GWR for 40 years before that, and they could only see the lamp positions of a train as it approached them.  Hence what I was taught way back in the late 1960s.  Or as I used to  Drivers of long experience 'where did you stand when lamping an engine if you weren't a station platform - the answer was always along the lines of  " in front of it unless I had to climb on to reach the top bracket".   Next question of course was 'where were left and right when you stood looking at the front of the engine?'  Overall I doubt it is something which will ever be settled as many enginemen will always stick to 'on the left when seen from the cab' line - which doesn't mean they were right but it was what they had learnt as Firemen.

There's a problem there, Mike, which extends beyond the world of railways. I suffer from arthritis and have often had to describe the location of various aches and pains to a doctor or, more usually, nurse. I might, for instance, tell her that it is my left shoulder. To her, sitting in front of and looking straight at me, it's on the right. But it's still my left shoulder!

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My copy of the 1960 General Appendix does not have the supplements so only shows the original A-K classes. There is no textual explanation as to where the pictures are assumed to be viewed from so the authors must have taken it to be self evident. How else do you interpret a view clearly looking at the loco from the front, which is how I have always understood it

If drivers were regularly getting it wrong then one must assume that confusing class C with class E, or D with F, or J with K did not have particularly adverse consequences.

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5 minutes ago, LMS2968 said:

There's a problem there, Mike, which extends beyond the world of railways. I suffer from arthritis and have often had to describe the location of various aches and pains to a doctor or, more usually, nurse. I might, for instance, tell her that it is my left shoulder. To her, sitting in front of and looking straight at me, it's on the right. But it's still my left shoulder!

Hence why Selfies often take the picture as though its a mirror image in case you fail to recognise yourself.

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19 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

My copy of the 1960 General Appendix does not have the supplements so only shows the original A-K classes. There is no textual explanation as to where the pictures are assumed to be viewed from so the authors must have taken it to be self evident. How else do you interpret a view clearly looking at the loco from the front, which is how I have always understood it

If drivers were regularly getting it wrong then one must assume that confusing class C with class E, or D with F, or J with K did not have particularly adverse consequences.

Wrong? I remember getting to Miles Platting Junction on the way to Healey Mills. You could go either over the Lanky or the LNWR through Huddersfield. The left hand semaphore was off. We'd have been a bit surprised to take the right hand route through Huddersfield.

 

So drivers - and guards - refer to the left and right sides AS THEY SEE THEM and in the direction of travel. Exchanging them side to side to suit circumstance would certainly cause confusion.

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1 hour ago, LMS2968 said:

There's a problem there, Mike, which extends beyond the world of railways. I suffer from arthritis and have often had to describe the location of various aches and pains to a doctor or, more usually, nurse. I might, for instance, tell her that it is my left shoulder. To her, sitting in front of and looking straight at me, it's on the right. But it's still my left shoulder!

As a nurse I was taught the right side is the patient's right side irrespective if the patient knew which was his or her left and right. 

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Wrong? I remember getting to Miles Platting Junction on the way to Healey Mills. You could go either over the Lanky or the LNWR through Huddersfield. The left hand semaphore was off. We'd have been a bit surprised to take the right hand route through Huddersfield.

Which has absolutely no relevance to the headlamp code!  Even the loco crew are looking at the loco from the front when they lamp up! And if they put the wrong codes on they can expect to get the wrong treatment from the Bobby. Of course all these drivers telling their fireman to but the lamp over the left buffer may well be referring to classes E, F and K or the later numbered equivalent, they just learn them backwards.

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Can't follow you there. In most cases, the platform was on the left, signals were on the left, the cess was on the left, so it takes a leap of imagination to think that the lamp for a Class K was on the right.

 

In practice, this argument is a waste of time: we're talking of what happened, not what should or should not. You can argue that drivers, firemen and guards were all wrong as much as you like, but they were the men who worked the railway and that's what they did.

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19 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The S&D Jt appears to have always used its own headcodes and clearly from the extract you posted above that continued (in some respects) after 1960.  The codes in the 1933 Appendix (which presumably remained in effect until October 1960) were as follows -

Passenger trains - a white light at the foot of the chimney and a white light above the left buffer

Freight trains - a white light at the foot of the chimney and a white light above the right buffer

Light engines - a white light at the foot of the chimney

 

From October 1960 I can find no record of any local codes remaining in use on the S&D and the Regional Appendix states that the standard codes applied throughout the WR (which then included the S&D Jt).  That is supported by the extract you posted which is shown as an exception to the standard codes for through trains and light engines to/from the SR.  Thus after October 1960 the official situation was that all S&D Jt passenger trains which did not run south of Templecombe Junction should carry standard Class A or B lamps.  some photos I have seen suggest that S&D Jt 'independence' carried on after that date in various ways.

 

Hello Mike

 

I hope a little later to have some detail for you concerning 1958 when the WR took over control from Bath (Green Park) to Templecombe.

 

The entire S&D line retained its own lamp code right up to the end (apart from what I will detail later as above).  There were some other exceptions over the years, such as:

1. When a loco was incorrectly lamped up (and I can find no more than a handful of such cases).

2. An Inspection Train (with Class A headlamp code).

3. When The Pines Express headboard was carried on the loco's chimney lamp bracket, a lamp was placed above each buffer (looking like a 'normal' Class A train). 

 

Speaking with Mike Arlett - who spent many hours in Midford Signal Box (and others) - tells me that headlamp codes on the S&D were of little or no consideration for Signalmen, such was the nature of the line. 

 

A somewhat 'comic aside' happened on 24 December 1959. The Up Pines arrived at Evercreech Junction to find no assisting loco available for the climb over the Mendips. A Jinty was summoned from Radstock (No.47496) and proudly piloted No.34028 Eddystone up to Bath (Green Park)...with a lamp over each buffer!:)

 

Brian

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