LNER C1 Atlantic for Queen of Scots?

[robmcg]

Hi All,

 

Having just bought a lovely 'Queen of Scots' trainpack with Hornby A4  4500 'Garganey'  and already owning Hornby A3 2569 'Gladiateur' I wonder which of the two Bachmann Ivatt C1 Atlantics would most suit the the train of K-type Pullmans?

 

LNER 3251 31-765NRM ,  or LNER 4421 31-762 ?  I'm not sure if the former has exactly the same lining as 4421 but may be wrong.

 

Are there any differences which would make one or the other more suitable?  I have two post-war models of 62822 which are beautiful and would be interested to know if either of the LNER versions models would be more suitable heading the QoS, 4421 being much more readily available.

 

Thanks in advance, 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by robmcg
correction

[jwealleans]

3251 is not appropriate - there are a number of differences between it and the production C1s which followed.

 

The Queen of Scots was worked by a pool of 4 Copley Hill C1s which were kept in top condition for the working and stayed with the drivers chosen for that link.   There's a published list somewhere, I'll see what I can find.

 

Whether the Pullmans are correct I can't say, that's not something of which I have any knowledge.

[jwealleans]

Found it.  East Coast from Kings Cross by Eric Neve, page 37:

 

One significant change in locomotive working did occur on the Queen of Scots Pullman which had a 195 minute non-stop booking from Leeds - Kings Cross.  This proved rather too much for the D11 4-4-0s which had coped successfully since 1927.  Therefore this class was replaced at Copley Hill by three large Atlantics which were still capable of maintaining or even cutting this exacting time.  Only three sets of men comprised the Copley Hill Pullman link then each booked to their own engine - Nos 3280 (driver Bird), 4423 (Rogers) and 4433 (Malthouse).  

 

There may have been later changes/additions which might be where I got the four from, but that gives you a choice.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I did not realise that D11s had ever done such top flight work on the main line. Which year was it that the change to C1s took place?

[jwealleans]

I don't have the book to hand now.   It was fairly early in the chapter on the 1930s, so within the first couple of years of that decade.

 

There are pictures of the D11s working the QoS and its predecessors - 5506 was a particular favourite.

[31A]

5 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

I don't have the book to hand now.  

 

I have! 

 

Doesn't exactly say but it's in the section relating to 1935, so I guess 1935.

[jwealleans]

Surely it was earlier than that, Steve?    IIRC the bridge strengthening to allow A1s to work to Leeds was 1937 and I'd be sure the C1s worked it for more than 2 years.   Does the Greenie give any more information?

Edited May 22, 2020 by jwealleans

[Darryl Tooley]

10 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Which year was it that the change to C1s took place?

Yeadon's Register Vol 13 has the three C1s mentioned as transferred to Copley Hill between May and September 1932.  His book on named trains tells us that 4460 joined the link in 1935, with Pacifics being used from October 1936.

 

D

[31A]

1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

Surely it was earlier than that, Steve?    IIRC the bridge strengthening to allow A1s to work to Leeds was 1937 and I'd be sure the C1s worked it for more than 2 years.   Does the Greenie give any more information?

 

Sorry, I should have read it properly, and your quote!

 

I got the book out and happened to light on a similar paragraph (naming men and C1s) that related to diagram changes arising from the introduction of The Silver Jubilee.  But the paragraph you actually quoted is earlier in the same chapter.

 

However once again that particular paragraph is undated, but by inference refers to changes that happened in 1932, as the paragraphs either side relate to that year.

 

[Steamport Southport]

6 hours ago, jwealleans said:

 

Whether the Pullmans are correct I can't say, that's not something of which I have any knowledge.

 

The Pullmans were the 1928 K stock which Hornby do.

 

The ones in the pack are correct.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/164494/hornby_r3402_queen_of_scots_train_pack_with_class_a4_4_6_2_in_lner_garter_blue_and_three_pull/stockdetail.aspx

 

Comet also do the sides and Keen Systems do some bodies and other parts for altering the older Hornby Railroad version. I bought them before Hornby announced the newer version....

 

Some information on the Pullmans on the Keen website including the formations.

 

https://keen-systems.com/Pullman.html

 

 

 

Jason

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

6 hours ago, jwealleans said:

I don't have the book to hand now.   It was fairly early in the chapter on the 1930s, so within the first couple of years of that decade.

 

There are pictures of the D11s working the QoS and its predecessors - 5506 was a particular favourite.

My recollection is the C1s came in as a consequence of the 1932 general speed up, which lopped 20 minutes off the KX - Leeds time. It was a relatively brief stint, I believe the last for the class as the scheduled power for a premium turn, as the arrival of the A4s released A1 and A3 pacifics from 1935 onwards, and then came the V2s.

 

Being of the 'impressionist school' I feel that 3251 on a set of 8 of Hornby's 1928 all steel cars looks sufficiently fabulous to content me. The same set can of course be hauled by any Doncaster pacific and V2s in both LNER and BR form, by the handy dodge of half the set being in the original Pullman livery; that end of the set for coupling onto LNER liveried locos, and the other half in the post war livery; that end for coupling onto BR liveried locos. 

[jwealleans]

Quote

4460 joined the link in 1935

 

That's where I got four from.   Thanks very much.

[robmcg]

6 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

My recollection is the C1s came in as a consequence of the 1932 general speed up, which lopped 20 minutes off the KX - Leeds time. It was a relatively brief stint, I believe the last for the class as the scheduled power for a premium turn, as the arrival of the A4s released A1 and A3 pacifics from 1935 onwards, and then came the V2s.

 

Being of the 'impressionist school' I feel that 3251 on a set of 8 of Hornby's 1928 all steel cars looks sufficiently fabulous to content me. The same set can of course be hauled by any Doncaster pacific and V2s in both LNER and BR form, by the handy dodge of half the set being in the original Pullman livery; that end of the set for coupling onto LNER liveried locos, and the other half in the post war livery; that end for coupling onto BR liveried locos. 

 

I too have an impressionist bent, but will probably buy 4421, I used to own 3251 but sold it in a so-called 'financial downturn'. I must buy some green books to add to my collection of LNER esoterica. I also sold a QoS  train pack with the A1 and three pullmans but from memory they were the older style wide coupling versions.

 

Onwards and upwards!  I do like the way those 4 Atlantics were able to keep or improve on scheduled times those steel carriages were heavy.

 

One point of interest about the Hornby trainpack, the engine and carriages in their foam surrounds are these days not surrounded by tissue paper but by soft plastic sheet and removal without damage gives new meaning to the phrase 'box-opening'. Too tight to ease out horizontally, engine and tender being permanently connected, so they have to be eased by pressure from behind with the box insert upside down , with soft flat surface to receive the contents , and if the front of the engine gets held up it could be goodbye lamp holders...  Nerve-wracking.

 

Thanks all.

 

here is A4 4500 from the pack , very impressive!

 

 

but how can you overlook this.. ?

 

 

Even if the war wore them out...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by robmcg
added pictures

[JamieR4489]

On 22/05/2020 at 07:15, jwealleans said:

3251 is not appropriate - there are a number of differences between it and the production C1s which followed.

... but not on the Bachmann model. I have both 3251 and 4421 and, decoration aside, they are identical. I don’t know which is correct, though. I think I read that 3251 had her chimney in a different place but both models have the fronts of their chimneys in line with the front of the cylinders, which seems to be correct for the production C1s.

 

[jwealleans]

Quote

but not on the Bachmann model.

 

Well that's bad for Bachmann, but good news for me - I picked up a 3251 at York last year when Locomotion were selling some off (damaged box - who cares about that?) and it's been awaiting a renumber and whatever changes were necessary since then.  Mr. King has first claim on running a 3251 on Grantham.

 

I thought I'd listed the differences out when I was preparing my kit ones for Grantham, but I didn't - it was the BR version I was looking at.   I'm sure Mr. King can list them all but off the top of my head tapered buffers are all I can think of.

[robmcg]

I have bought the RCTS green book 3a  C1 to C11  but it won't arrive in NZ in a hurry...   3 months is likely.  But other books mention that after the C1 heyday they did some service on the ex-GCR.  Does anyone have any further information about this?

 

I've always liked the ex-GCR Atlantic and their reputation for very hard running and wonder how the C1 may have done by comparison.

 

 

Edited May 23, 2020 by robmcg
typo

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 hour ago, robmcg said:

I've always liked the ex-GCR Atlantic and their reputation for very hard running and wonder how the C1 may have done by comparison.

To use a famous expression from elsewhere, a C1 would have pulled two GCR atlantics backwards.

 

Of all the atlantics in the UK the C1 was top dog in power production. Their 'secret weapons' were a near square 31 sq ft of grate in a relatively short barrel boiler which made for easy firing and free steaming, combined with a superheater ratio of just over 18, once Gresley had completed their development. That boiler power enabled the C1 to match the sustained power output at express speed of any UK 4-6-0. This was a key design in early C20th UK loco development, that established the best development path for maximum power express passenger locomotives. Wide grate over carrying wheels, high superheat, that's the ticket.

[robmcg]

On 23/05/2020 at 22:44, JamieR4489 said:

... but not on the Bachmann model. I have both 3251 and 4421 and, decoration aside, they are identical. I don’t know which is correct, though. I think I read that 3251 had her chimney in a different place but both models have the fronts of their chimneys in line with the front of the cylinders, which seems to be correct for the production C1s.

 

 

I particularly like and admire the fine red lining on these models hve bought 4421 and await its arrival, much delayed I suspect because airlines are so curtailed.

[GeoffBird]

On ‎22‎/‎05‎/‎2020 at 08:15, jwealleans said:

3251 is not appropriate - there are a number of differences between it and the production C1s which followed.

 

The Queen of Scots was worked by a pool of 4 Copley Hill C1s which were kept in top condition for the working and stayed with the drivers chosen for that link.   There's a published list somewhere, I'll see what I can find.

 

Whether the Pullmans are correct I can't say, that's not something of which I have any knowledge.

I don't know about the differences but 3251 was a Top Shed loco, so, if one of the Copley Hill C1's failed at the Cross, then it could be that 3251 would be substituted instead (that's my Argument for using it!)

 

Also, the Hornby Pullmans were only introduced in 1928 when the Pullman colours were also changed ,so they would not be able to be used by an ex-GC B3 4-6-0, These were sent back in early 1927.

 

For more details there is another Yeadon book - "Named Trains on LNER Lines, Part 1"

 

Regarding the use of the D10 class locos, No. 5510 was allocated to Copley Hill from June 1931 to Feb 1933.   In the book "Locomotive Headboards", there is a picture of it hauling the QoS.  Complete with headboard, so after July 1932 whne the headboard was provided.

 

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by GeoffBird
new information

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, GeoffBird said:

I don't know about the differences but 3251 was a Top Shed loco, so, if one of the Copley Hill C1's failed at the Cross, then it could be that 3251 would be substituted instead (that's my Argument for using it!)

 

Also, the Hornby Pullmans were only introduced in 1928 when the Pullman colours were also changed ,so they would not be able to be used by an ex-GC B3 4-6-0, These were sent back in early 1927.

 

For more details there is another Yeadon book - "Named Trains on LNER Lines, Part 1"

 

Regarding the use of the D10 class locos, No. 5510 was allocated to Copley Hill from June 1931 to Feb 1933.   In the book "Locomotive Headboards", there is a picture of it hauling the QoS.  Complete with headboard, so after July 1932 whne the headboard was provided.

 

 

 

The 1928 Pullmans were built for the introduction of the Queen Of Scots train.

 

Prior to that it was called The Harrogate Pullman. The other train was The Yorkshire Pullman. 

 

https://www.steve-banks.org/leeds-west-riding/301-queen-of-scots

 

 

 

Jason

[GeoffBird]

Thanks for the ingfo re-steve Banks, Jason.  Unfortunately, my laptzop won't let me Access the site.

 

One has, of course, the oppoortunity of modelling to QoS north of Leeds, mostly ex_NER locos without the headboard, mainly Heaton and Gateshead Pacifics from Leeds to Newcastle and then on to Edinburgh.. There is even a phoot of B17 2872 when new in 1937 working the service.  So, North of Leeds is anything possible - even the W1 in June 1930!

[A Murphy]

In answer to Rob McG's query, a group of C1s were allocated to Sheffield Neepsend shed from the late 1920s/early 30s for use on services like Liverpool to Hull and 'the Harwich Continental', again from Liverpool running via Manchester Central (where the service reversed) and Woodhead to Sheffield Victoria: I am not sure where the engine changed, but some of the Harwich trains saw one loco work the whole trip. Later in the 30s B17s started working these services. The GC drivers absolutely loved the C1s according to E M Johnson. And I believe they were still around until 1939? 

 

Alastair M

Edited May 27, 2020 by A Murphy

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The C1s, along with other ageing classes, got a 'life extension' due to the war, with the desperate need for all the loco power available; the last going in 1951 I believe. Had there been no war and normal peacetime traffic conditions the large build of V2s would have seen them off much earlier I should think.

[Steamport Southport]

I think there was also a plan for a 2 cylinder mixed traffic 4-6-0 based on the B17. Which eventually became the Thompson B1.

 

So yes there would have been a massive cull of old and non standard designs like the GWR and LMS had also started.

 

 

 

Jason

[robmcg]

On 29/05/2020 at 21:45, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The C1s, along with other ageing classes, got a 'life extension' due to the war, with the desperate need for all the loco power available; the last going in 1951 I believe. Had there been no war and normal peacetime traffic conditions the large build of V2s would have seen them off much earlier I should think.

 

The Bachmann 62822 is a lovely rendition of the last BR C1.  Weathered or more rarely available pristine.

 

I'm still waiting for my LNER 4421 to arrive from England so in the meantime some post-war C1 pics.

 

 

 

 

The last one must have been ex-works!